Ijma & Democracy

[DT Strain]

Hello

I have not heard of Ijma before today, but was wondering what you all thought of this article from Wikipedia - especially the notion that this makes Democracy compatible with Islam. Is this what many Muslims believe? Your comments are appreciated...
(thanks)

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Ijmāʿ (إجماع) is an Arabic term referring ideally to the consensus of the ummah (the community of Muslims, or followers of Islam). In reality, ijma referred only to the consensus of traditional Islamic scholars (Arabic ulema) on particular points of Islamic law .


The hadith of Muhammad which states that "My community will never agree upon an error" is often cited as support for the validity of ijma. Sunni Muslims regard ijma as the third fundamental source of Sharia law, after the divine revelation of the Qur'an, the prophetic practice or Sunnah. The analogical reasoning or qiyas is described as fourth source in Sunni Islam , whereas Shi'a Islam uses 'aql (intellect).Many conservative Muslim writers have claimed that the use of ijma' makes Islamic law compatible with democracy.


Various proponents of liberal movements within Islam criticize the traditional view that ijma' is only a consensus among traditional Islamic scholars (Arabic ulema). They claim that truly democratic consensus should involve the entire community rather than a small and conservative clerical class, especially since there is no hierarchical system in Islam.

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[Abdullah]

Hi DT Strain.

'Ijma' in Islamic terms refers to the Consensus of the Islamic Scholars; it does not refer to consensus of the whole Ummah [community of Muslims], laymen included, as people are not supposed to follow laymen, but only the Learned Scholars.

Islam is not compatiable with Western style democracy as the notion of "whatever the majority or consensus of the laymen want, we will do", goes against the verry nature of Islam; what if the majority or the consensus of the laymen soon want to legalise incest and class A drugs?, should we go along with it?.

The laymen would judge according to their limited knowledge and their desires, thus it is wrong to follow the whims of the laymen.

Only the Islamic Scholars, who derive correct Judgements from Islamic sources, are worthy of following ,and the hadith [saying of the Prophet Muhammed sm] that says "my community will never agree upon an error", refers to the consensus of the Islamic Scholars.

hope that helps.

Peace.

[DT Strain]

Thanks for the info Abdullah. Do you really believe it is wrong for laymen to decide their own laws? Do most Muslims believe this?

[aburaees]

There was a time when Islamic Scholars tried to declare coffee to be forbidden/haram as caffeine is a stimulant... however the 'Ijma of the Muslim community drowned out the 'Ijma of the scholars hence today it is not forbidden.

.

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by DT Strain

Thanks for the info Abdullah. Do you really believe it is wrong for laymen to decide their own laws? Do most Muslims believe this?

Hi D T Strain,

Sorry for the late reply..

All Muslims believe that laymen cannot make laws that go against the Shariah, for the Quran makes clear that those who Rule with other then with the Law Allah has prescribed, are the non-believers/non-Muslims:

"And He who does not rule by other then what Allah has revealed, it is they who are the disbelievers" [Quran, 5:45]

"And he who does not rule by what Allah has revealed, it is they who are the wrongdoers" [5:45]

"And he who does not rule by what Allah has revealed, it is they who are the rebellious" [5:47]

If however a Muslim judges/rules by other then what Allah has revealed, and accepts it to be wrong/sinfull and not allowed by God, and not equall to or better then the Shariah Law, then in this circumstance he would be a major sinner but not a disbeliever.

The Islamic Shariah Law is a complete and comprehensive code of law that covers each and every aspect of governing and legislation that would ever be needed untill the Last Day, and Allah [swt] has revealed this Law within the confines of the Holy Quran and the Sunnah and only qualified Scholars have all the pre-requisite knowledge and qualities to acurately derive this law from the Holy Quran and Sunnah, thus only they have the authority to make Judgements on what the legislation of a state should be.

hope that helps

Peace.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Abdullah

Islam is not compatiable with Western style democracy as the notion of "whatever the majority or consensus of the laymen want, we will do", goes against the verry nature of Islam; what if the majority or the consensus of the laymen soon want to legalise incest and class A drugs?, should we go along with it?.

The Qur'an calls for the values of democracy over the other forms of government present in the world... but Western style democracy is barely democratic and could easily be bettered.

What you advocate here is to sacrifice 'Patience, Faith and good deeds' in the name of enforcing a 'Truth'. To answer your questions: YES, the Qur'an commands to allow laymen to commit their sins so that you do not drive them away from Allah (swt), but to NOT do as they do and to struggle to teach the better way. I submit that it is closer to Allah's (swt) will that drugs be legalized because it is then up to every individual to struggle with their neighbor and families... whereas making it illegal pushes the responsibility to a specialized impersonal law enforcement, which can actually drive people away from Allah (swt). The Qur'an does NOT define class A drugs, nor does it define or ordain a punishment for them.

There is NO man-made institution (government) that can be designed to replace the individual to enjoin certain values on another, because it is an individual's struggle to find and to struggle with others. Where to judge, struggle, obey, forgive, or have patience is an individual's decision. If there is a government institution then all individuals had better be a strong part of it. The person that makes the decision is responsible and you can not institutionally remove that from them.

The battle cry is often that there is some type of "decay"... "moral decay"... often followed by presenting the "cleansing" or "correcting" ideals of institutional oppression and censorship. By Allah's design, everything here in this world decays. Absolutely everything. It takes work, consumption of physical energy and time to build and prevent that decay. My house decays all on its own. But any institution that is opposed to the individual working to prevent the decay is counter to the teaching of the Qur'an and the Bible. It is an individual's responsibility to struggle for what is right. Per the Qur'an, Allah (swt) judges the individual for the individual's beliefs and actions, and individually without the need for any witnesses. So why do people try to erect institutions (government) to counter and seemingly try to remove the individual's responsibility? Will my government be standing at my judgement? There is NO government, religion, family, or body of people that is a scapegoat for the individual. None.

Originally Posted by Abdullah

The laymen would judge according to their limited knowledge and their desires, thus it is wrong to follow the whims of the laymen.

ALL people are laymen in this world. Remember the verse, "Do not kill your children on a plea of want."? You are advocating killing children by removing the Faith placed in them. The layman becomes a scholar by being asked to judge. It is fundamental to learning. Who would kill the laymen by telling them they are unworthy of judging right from wrong?

Originally Posted by Abdullah

Only the Islamic Scholars, who derive correct Judgements from Islamic sources, are worthy of following ,and the hadith [saying of the Prophet Muhammed sm] that says "my community will never agree upon an error", refers to the consensus of the Islamic Scholars.

Who is the rightful judge of who an Islamic scholar is? Who is the rightful judge of whether or not to believe in the prophet Muhammad (pbuh)? Who is responsible for the decision? It is every individual, regardless of their state in life.

Originally Posted by Abdullah

All Muslims believe that laymen cannot make laws that go against the Shariah, for the Quran makes clear that those who Rule with other then with the Law Allah has prescribed, are the non-believers/non-Muslims:

There is a telltale signature there: You claim to know what ALL Muslims believe, but I submit you have NO understanding of what the overwhelming majority believe... do you? Do you truly claim to know what is in the minds of people... of what a person like me believes? How will you learn what a person believes? By telling people like me what they believe, or what to believe? How will you do a good deed for me... by telling me what a good deed is? OR by seeking my vote, my opinion, my belief, ultimately, the will of my soul. How similarly are you speaking for Allah (swt) instead of seeking the will of Allah (swt)?

The laymen can make laws or agreements with people just as children can... and they certainly can be counter to the Shariah because Allah (swt) did NOT write the Shariah. People did. People can and DO derive and formulate laws, but the Qur'an teaches to NOT ascribe them to Allah (swt). As an example: I made a law with my wife... and I am responsible for my side of that marriage. I am responsible for my part in the decision and accountable to adhering to the law that I helped write. Allah (swt) may have joined us but it was because we asked him to.

Originally Posted by Abdullah

The Islamic Shariah Law is a complete and comprehensive code of law that covers each and every aspect of governing and legislation that would ever be needed untill the Last Day, and Allah [swt] has revealed this Law within the confines of the Holy Quran and the Sunnah and only qualified Scholars have all the pre-requisite knowledge and qualities to acurately derive this law from the Holy Quran and Sunnah, thus only they have the authority to make Judgements on what the legislation of a state should be.

You are seemingly with the majority with these beliefs, but I tell you that it is entirely false. Every bit of it is a lie. Allah (swt) did not write the overwhelming majority of the laws that you have come to believe that Allah (swt) wrote. Alledged scholars did. How do I know this? Why do you not know it? You admit to it by using the word 'derive'. I am not putting down the laws that people or scholars made, I am speaking for their required origin... from the people. Let no scholar ascribe them to Allah (swt)... they do so at their own peril. I am NOT advocating trying to overwrite any law that Allah (swt) has made. The scholar that ascribes his 'derivation' to Allah (swt) is. The scholar is responsible for what the scholar writes. The layman is responsible for what the layman writes. If the layman doesn't write his life and his relationships then he is already dead.