If not Jesus, then who?

[BlaznFattyz]

be careful what u wish for.

a person or govt. may create peace either politically, religiously, monetarily ; yet it will be a false peace and in doing so will deceive many in believing in man's ability to create peace without God. there is no true peace other than The Lord's.

[pohaikawahine]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

be careful what u wish for.

a person or govt. may create peace either politically, religiously, monetarily ; yet it will be a false peace and in doing so will deceive many in believing in man's ability to create peace without God. there is no true peace other than The Lord's.

my first response was to ask that if the Lord was the root of true peace, then why don't we live in peace .... so man must play some role in bringing about peace .... but this becomes a circular discussion ....so I guess my question to the group is, what is peace?

Two very interesting and profound points have been brought up in this thread .... bananabrains reference that there might be "2 messiah" one killed in the war of "gog and magog" and the other who will bring peace (might these be the twins .... esau and jacob who struggle with each other throughout their lifetime .... or the two native american hopi warriors poqanghoya and palongawhoya, who guard the north and south poles and send vibrations to each other along the earth's axis .... both of whom, in my view, symbolize the spiralling energy within) .... I would love to hear more about the war of gog and magog (why did you say "don't ask") ....

the other point was zen's question about opening the hand .... followed by "choice cannot be detected in the brain .... only the instruction after the choice has been made, choice does not take place in the brain" ....

all three points above play a role in the question of what is peace (in my view ) if human's can bring about peace by changing the way we think or by changing our minds .... if we follow the "way of" spirit .... if we become more christ-like, if we become more buddha-like .... if we return to the ancient path of knowledge (the way of the mystic) .... if we move that spiralling energy within up into the brain center and open the brain to new ways of thinking .... would we fulfill the prophecies that say we can return to a world of peace (both internally and externally) .... if the spiralling energies (which I call the 'twins' which constantly struggle with each other .... thus could be called warriors or generals) can move through deep meditation or prayer (not the kind where you ask for something, but the kind where you give of yourself to the void or the space between your thoughts .... that place where choice perhaps does not take place in the brain) .... maybe all of the above is true .... only if you see the symbols .... just my thought to share on the subject .... he hawai'i au, pohaikawahine p.s. and speaking of flow, after re-reading this, I'm not even sure I could follow it .... oh well, I tried ....

one more p.s. the concept of opposition, battling, struggle of the twins is also the concept of opposition which has to be overcome in order to achieve individual awareness .... it is also the internal struggle to overcome the barriers placed by our own egos ... etc.

[pohaikawahine]

forgot the first question .... If not Jesus, then maybe Us ....

[star light]

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

Peace,

I have been reading some other threads about how Jews do not accept that Jesus was the Messiah. Can I just say that I accept this 100%, Im not recruiting Jews for Jesus or anything.

I was wondering though, what do Jews mean when they say messiah? Who will he be? What is his purpose? When is he expected etc.

One thing I have heard (from the discovery channel so probably not too reliable) is that the messiah is to be a warlike leader who would free the Jews. But of course, the Jews are free today. What's that about? Please feel free to correct me here.

I would like to stress that I mean no offense to the Jewish religion, but I was raised a Catholic and was taught that Jesus was the messiah, I would like to hear the other side of the argument.

hi
from a jewish perspective the messia meaning the lords anointed, will be a human being, who must forfill certon criteriea before being exepted as messia
he must be jewish deuteronomy 17 15
he must be a member of the house of judah genasis 49 10
he must be a direct male desendent of king david and king sollomon 2 samual 7 12-13
he is expected to gather all the jews from exike and return them to israel issaiah 10 12
he will rebuild the temple in jerusalem ezekeil 37 26-27
he will bring world peace micah 4 3
he will bring all jews back to observing all G-D s commandments ezekiel 37 24
he will bring the knowlage of the one true G-d to all people issaiah 66 23
all is best summed up in ezekeil 37 24-28
i hope this answears at least part of your questions

[bananabrain]

did you read the rest of the thread?

well, welcome to the board and thank you for answering the questions so definitively for us.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[star light]

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

Peace,

I have been reading some other threads about how Jews do not accept that Jesus was the Messiah. Can I just say that I accept this 100%, Im not recruiting Jews for Jesus or anything.

I was wondering though, what do Jews mean when they say messiah? Who will he be? What is his purpose? When is he expected etc.

One thing I have heard (from the discovery channel so probably not too reliable) is that the messiah is to be a warlike leader who would free the Jews. But of course, the Jews are free today. What's that about? Please feel free to correct me here.

I would like to stress that I mean no offense to the Jewish religion, but I was raised a Catholic and was taught that Jesus was the messiah, I would like to hear the other side of the argument.

the jewish messiah, will be a human being who will have to fullfill the following criteria to be considered the jewish messiah
he will ,be a direct male biological decendent of king david through his son sollomon (genesis49 10 & issiah 11 1)
he will rebuild the temple in jerusalem ( ezekiel 37 26-28)
he will gather all the exiled jews back to israel (issaiah 43 5-6)
he will usher in world peace(isaiah 2 4)
he will spread universal knowladge of the one true G-D (zecheriah 14 9 )
who ever fails to fullfill this criteria is not the jewish messiah
jesus didnt fulfill this criteria so he is not the jewish messiah as prophosised in hebrew scripture

[inhumility]

Sir,
Excuse me please.
I understand that it was written in the scriptures that before arrival of Messiah or Moshiach prophet Elijah will descend from heavens.
I find mention of Elijah in the Christian OT with following reference:-

New International Version (NIV)

1 When the LORD was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal. (2 Kings 2:2)

11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. (2 Kings 2:11)



5 "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse." (Malachi 4:5 or in some versions 3:24”



Has it also been mentioned in the Jewish Torah or in some other Jewish scriptures? Please give its reference with quotations of the verses for my information. Thanks

Yours

inhumility

[pohaikawahine]

Originally Posted by inhumility

Sir,

1 When the LORD was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal. (2 Kings 2:2)

inhumility

"in a whirlwind" .... there is that spiralling energy I was talking about .... it always spirals like the DNA double helix ..... the shaman use the symbol of a rope (spiralling fibers) .... the sufi spins ..... on the caudecus (medical symbol) the snakes wrap around the staff .... I look at the symbols and then anwers the question, if not Jesus, then who? All of us ..... that is in my view the second coming, when we remember who we were we will remember who we are and our sovereignty will be returned .... if can never be taken away again unless we chose to give it away ..... how to harness the inner spiralling energy is explained to us in symbols and allegories and metaphors and parables ..... the mystics understood this but were banned and burned as heretics .... they knew however where to go, underground or within themselves ..... the world is changing and so must we if we are to survive another seven generations ..... this is an important question and all of the religions and beliefs represented on this forum have the answer and the directions ..... if not Jesus, then who? he hawai'i au, poh

[inhumility]

Sir

I have read the Christian Bible and not the Jewish Bible, so in my last post I quoted some verses from the Christian Old Testament and I wanted to know narration of the same from the Jewish Bible. I have now found out reference and wording of one verse from the Jewish Bible.

I have also studied carefully information available on http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm as advised.

I also found out a write up titled:-

"Messiah :The Criteria

Judge for yourself:
Did Jesus fulfill ALL these criteria?

The Jewish tradition of "The Messiah" has its foundation in numerous biblical references, and understands "The Messiah" to be a human being - without any overtone of deity or divinity - who will bring about certain changes in the world and fulfill certain criteria before he can be acknowledged as "The Messiah".

First of all, he must be Jewish.

He must be a member of the tribe of Judah.

He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon.

He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel.

He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem.

He will rule at a time of world-wide peace.

He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments.

He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d.

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah."

A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.

Certainly NOT Jesus." (also mentioned by star light)

(The write up consists of an elaborate detail as to how according to Jewish People the above signs are not fulfilled in Jesus. I have abbreviated the write up and kept the signs narrated only).

I have also read an account of several other Jewish claimants of this office who remained unsuccessful and hence rejected by the Jewish people.

But one important sign which has been mentioned in the Jewish Bible and the Christian Bible is missing in the above list i.e. descending of the prophet Elijah from the heavens to earth before arrival of the Messiah or Moshiach.The verse is :-

“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of God.
Hineh anochi shole'ach lachem et Eliyah hanavi lifney bo yom Adonay hagadol vehanora.(Festivals(3:23)-Shabat HaGadol) . “Christians may refer toMalachi 4:5 or in some versions 3:24.”

The Jewish people had not been accepting any claimants of the office of Moshiach even from amongst their own people, and waiting for his success or otherwise for rejecting him instead of accepting and supporting the truthful claimant .They were just to ask the question; has Elijah descended from the heavens before your arrival?

This would have saved them from a continuous wait position at least. The Jewish People are not to judge the Moshiach; Moshiach is to judge them according to the tradition.

The Jewish people of the time of Jesus knew the importance of this question and asked it, and a reply was given by Jesus, that should be referred to.

The Jewish people, undoubtedly, were waiting for a Messiah to be a human being - without any overtone of deity or divinity - who will bring about certain changes in the world and fulfill certain criteria before he can be acknowledged as a " Messiah” and the present day Christians put before the Jewish people a super natural deity or God which is not acceptable to the Jewish people alright. Understandable

The thread is interesting.

Thanks

inhumility

[Iyad]

Can I ask a somewhat relative question?

Do the Jewish people think Jesus was a Jew? Is that by faith or by anncestry?

Thanks...

Oh and just a little FYI (Just an FYI not a debate)
Muslims think that Muhammad (S) is the Messaiah. He was an Arab and not Jewish and Muslims think that this was the reason the Jewish people rejected his Message. They still wanted the Messiah to come from amongst them.

Jewish people who accepted Islam at the times of Muhammad thought that he was the last prophet they were promised in their books albiet not being Jewish himself.

No offence intended. Just thought to shed some "external" light on the concept.

[dauer]

Iyad,

There is no official position of Judaism on whether or not Jesus was Jewish if he existed. But my personal guess is that those Jews who think Jesus existed also think he was Jewish. There's no way to be Jewish by faith alone. Judaism is determined by ancestry.

I thought Muslims think Jesus is Masikh.

There is actually nothing in Judaism that says there cannot be non-Jewish prophets. But the Moshiach is ben David, descendant of David. But the fact is that the Jews rejected muhammad. That's why he changed the direction of prayer away from Jerusalem for his followers. He had to preach to non-Jews when the Jews rejected him.

Dauer

[InChristAlways]

First of all, he must be Jewish.

He must be a member of the tribe of Judah.

He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon.

According to our book of Revelation He was Jewish, from Judah and root of David

Matthew 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:

Reve 5:5 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals."

He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel.

Yes, through His Holy Spirit [Pentecost]. But first wrath has to come on Israel in which the remnant which are saved will once again attempt to keep the OC Mt Sinai [for the 4th time] Law/Torah.

ezekiel 22:17 The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 18 "Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to Me; they [are] all bronze, tin, iron, and lead, in the midst of a furnace; they have become dross from silver. 19 "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: 'Because you have all become dross, therefore behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. 20 '[As men] gather silver, bronze, iron, lead, and tin into the midst of a furnace, to blow fire on it, to melt [it;] so I will gather [you] in My anger and in My fury, and I will leave [you there] and melt you.

Malachi 4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.

He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem.

Do you mean Ezekiel's temple

Daniel 9:25 and you shall know and you shall be intelligent/wise[#07919] from going forth of [a ] word to turn back/return [#07725] and to build up Jerusalem untill an annointed one[#04899], a prince/ruler [#05057], 7 7's, and sevens, 60 and 2, she shall return and she is built broad place/square and sharp/gold/diligent and in distress/constraint of the times.

I assumed this was the first century temple that God had destroyed? Israel was the only one with a "covenant" of blessings and curses as far as I know. I don't know if this is Jesus or a "false High Priest"?

Daniel 11:22 "With the force of a flood they shall be swept away from before him and be broken, and also a prince [#5057] of a covenant.

[wil]

What does the book of Mathew or Revelation have to do with Judaism?

And what about this Son of David concept, the whole virgin birth, Joespeph not the father. I'm now reading that he was the father, not God, and that somehow was just not concieved with original sin??

Is that now the consensus, because if Joeseph wasn't the father than Jesus is not of the house of David except by adoption, not by geneology/dna.

[InChristAlways]

ezekiel 22:17 The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 18 "Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to Me; they [are] all bronze, tin, iron, and lead, in the midst of a furnace; they have become dross from silver. 19 "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: 'Because you have all become dross, therefore behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. 20 '[As men] gather silver, bronze, iron, lead, and tin into the midst of a furnace, to blow fire on it, to melt [it;] so I will gather [you] in My anger and in My fury, and I will leave [you there] and melt you.

Malachi 4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.

Originally Posted by wil

What does the book of Mathew or Revelation have to do with Judaism?

And what about this Son of David concept, the whole virgin birth, Joespeph not the father. I'm now reading that he was the father, not God, and that somehow was just not concieved with original sin??

Is that now the consensus, because if Joeseph wasn't the father than Jesus is not of the house of David except by adoption, not by geneology/dna.

The book of Daniel has everything to do with the book of revelation as it is the Consummaton of Israel/Judah and bringing both Nations together under One Lord and King. Why do you think it mentions 12 tribes [both nations of Israel/Judah]?

Doesn't Daniel 12 mention only an "Elect Remnant" being saved out of Israel upon the Day of the Lord/Gog-Magog?

Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, [Even] to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

Reve 5:5 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals."

Reve 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred [and] forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel [were] sealed:

[wil]

A- I feel like an intruder...discussing Christ in the Judaism area...for me this area is great to read and learn from, as those of the Jewish faith discuss the intracies of their faith. And also a great place to pose questions about Judaism....however a discussion of the new testament seem inappropriate, is this just me?

B- I've reposted my questions and the answer as the answer has nothing to do with the questions, but the questions came up from my trepidation elicited above.

C- I'm confused an apologize for such.

Originally Posted by wil
What does the book of Mathew or Revelation have to do with Judaism?

And what about this Son of David concept, the whole virgin birth, Joespeph not the father. I'm now reading that he was the father, not God, and that somehow was just not concieved with original sin??

Is that now the consensus, because if Joeseph wasn't the father than Jesus is not of the house of David except by adoption, not by geneology/dna.

response by IXA

The book of Daniel has everything to do with the book of revelation as it is the Consummaton of Israel/Judah and bringing both Nations together under One Lord and King. Why do you think it mentions 12 tribes [both nations of Israel/Judah]?

Doesn't Daniel 12 mention only an "Elect Remnant" being saved out of Israel upon the Day of the Lord/Gog-Magog?