if god made us perfect or good

[Thomas]

Well knock me down for I agree with Mee!

God made man good, but only God is perfect.

There is a broader view of 'good' as well, there's the good of not being naughty, and the good of something being fit-for-purpose. When God created man, he had the end of man in mind ... so the good of man is also the destiny to which man is intended.

This is the problem ... man wants to decide his own destiny, or failing that, decide how he journeys to the destiny he does not know ... neither of these two are 'good' as such.

... and we still do. More than ever, in this day and age, the rights of the individual to self-determination are held highest of all human values. Even in the face of God we decide how we want to believe, and in what, and in what ways any demand can be placed upon us ... anything that does not suit my appetites is unjust ... It's the same sin as Adam in continuum.

Thomas

[Alex P]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Well knock me down for I agree with Mee!

Search your feelings

There is much you both agree on.

[Dream]

Originally Posted by Shadowman`s opening question

why did we disobey him

Originally Posted by Alex answer

Because we can/could. (and that is an amazing thing, maybe not such a benefitting outcome of the choice, but we have/had that choice.)

I think I hear what you're saying and agree. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Whatever it was Adam did, I would have made/and do often make similar choices. I'm of the same stock as Adam, and I am always having to fight my impulsive nature in order to do the right thing.

Additionally

Paul summarized his opinion on the sin in the garden by referring to Isaiah chapter 40. He mentions two verses out of the chapter, which I have transcribed here, however his intention is for us to go over that section of Isaiah and think about it for ourselves.

Originally Posted by Romans 11:32-33

For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!.....

which refers to -->

Originally Posted by Isaiah 40:4-5...13-14

Every valley shall be lifted up, and every mountain and hill be made low; the uneven ground shall become level, and the rough places a plain. And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together, for the mouth of the LORD has spoken."....... 13 Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, or as his counselor has instructed him? Whom did he consult for his enlightenment, and who taught him the path of justice, and taught him
knowledge, and showed him the way of understanding?

The high places, represent the prophets and those who are spiritually up high, and the low places are those who are furthest from God. The glory of the L!RD as Paul represents it, probably has a lot to do with the vindication of the L!RD and his righteous judgment.

Paul's point: Adam will always be tempted to eat the apple and cannot be given eternal life just as he is. The creation demonstrates the correctness of God's judgment and Vindicates God vs. the wicked. This demonstration is actively opposed by humanity which accuses God of unfair judgment and cruelty. Humanity disagrees with the existence of both death and pain, however God uses nations, including Israel, and individuals as a living eternally compelling argument in his favor. God has, according to Paul, already demonstrated He has just cause to destroy mankind as well the right to rescue and to discipline the faithful. Throughout the Bible, the theme is always the righteousness of God. God will ultimately demonstrate that his judgment is good. Think of it as not the exact opposite, but very opposed to the Dr. Who theme where mankind is fantastic as-is and-also eternal.

Originally Posted by Psalm 98:2-3

The LORD has made known his victory, he has revealed his vindication in the sight of the nations. He has remembered his steadfast love and faithfulness to the house of Israel. All the ends of the earth have seen the victory of our God.

[Alex P]

Originally Posted by Dream

I think I hear what you're saying and agree. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Whatever it was Adam did, I would have made/and do often make similar choices. I'm of the same stock as Adam, and I am always having to fight my impulsive nature in order to do the right thing.

Oh.... I remeber

http://www.comparative-religion.com/...6-post432.html

[mee]

It must be remembered that perfection as it relates to humans is a relative perfection, limited to the human sphere.

Though created perfect, Adam could not go beyond the limits assigned him by his Creator; he could not eat dirt, gravel, or wood without suffering ill effects; if he tried to breathe water instead of air, he would drown.

Similarly, if he allowed his mind and heart to feed on wrong thoughts, this would lead to entertaining wrong desires and finally bring sin and death.—Jas 1:14, 15; compare Ge 1:29; Mt 4:4.