I don't understand Strong Atheism, can someone explain it?

[Vimalakirti]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Just wanted to thank you for this above Vim. I've read many descriptions of the Buddhist concept of "no self" but this one for some reason got me a bit closer than most to "getting it." ' course, if we're talking Zen Buddhism, if I think I'm getting it, I'm not.

lunamoth

That's right, Luna, you're miles from getting it - which puts you on the very doorstep of enlightenment!

[dayaa]

woooow....i just started to really like buddhism .....does the fact that actually i haven't got a clue mean that really i'm pretty enlightened? i feel better already

[Vimalakirti]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Just wanted to thank you for this above Vim. I've read many descriptions of the Buddhist concept of "no self" but this one for some reason got me a bit closer than most to "getting it." ' course, if we're talking Zen Buddhism, if I think I'm getting it, I'm not.

lunamoth

I need to add - though I'm sure you know already - that this is just my spin. I'm completely unlicensed to practice!

Also, I'd like to point out that here we have an example of what I'm always (obsessively) getting back to. Here you have my little description of "self", what it is, where it goes, etc., but someone else might easily substitute their own description of an afterlife secure in the arms of the Lord. The contrasting words & concepts merely speak to different moods & states of mind. We live in the same world: we can point in no other direction (in the ultimate sense) but toward the same reality.

Depending on individual factors, people will find one or the other verbalization as more true or reassuring, but both speak of overcoming a state of suffering, whether that suffering is defined as "alienation from God", or the "endless round of Samsara".

So again, that's why while I don't believe in a personal God for myself, I consider the belief completely valid as a means of practice for others, and in a state of equality for its purposes with any other thought system, whether considered "religious" or "secular".

And that's why for me the idea of denying the existence of God - however defined - is a monumental waste of breath (the breathe we should be counting!). The only answer to theism that atheism needs to make is to develop its own systems of thought equally adequate to the extraordinary realities of human existence.

Cheers.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Vimalakirti

I need to add - though I'm sure you know already - that this is just my spin. I'm completely unlicensed to practice!

Also, I'd like to point out that here we have an example of what I'm always (obsessively) getting back to. Here you have my little description of "self", what it is, where it goes, etc., but someone else might easily substitute their own description of an afterlife secure in the arms of the Lord. The contrasting words & concepts merely speak to different moods & states of mind. We live in the same world: we can point in no other direction (in the ultimate sense) but toward the same reality.

Depending on individual factors, people will find one or the other verbalization as more true or reassuring, but both speak of overcoming a state of suffering, whether that suffering is defined as "alienation from God", or the "endless round of Samsara".

So again, that's why while I don't believe in a personal God for myself, I consider the belief completely valid as a means of practice for others, and in a state of equality for its purposes with any other thought system, whether considered "religious" or "secular".

And that's why for me the idea of denying the existence of God - however defined - is a monumental waste of breath (the breathe we should be counting!). The only answer to theism that atheism needs to make is to develop its own systems of thought equally adequate to the extraordinary realities of human existence.

Cheers.

Understood, and thank you for bringing the topic back in line with the OP. I am responsible for more thread derailments around here than I care to admit to .

Uh, Oh, I feel another derailment coming along...maybe I should post my question to you in another thread, one on pluralism...

As for my thoughts on strong atheism, as I understand it to be defined, I think it takes just as much committment to the unprovable as a faith in God. If you want to be completely objectively rational you'd have to be agnostic.

lunamoth

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

If you want to be completely objectively rational you'd have to be agnostic.

lunamoth

Yep. That's why most scientists I know will say they are atheist, but if you really discuss in more detail (or after they've had a few glasses of a nice Merlot at a dinner party and are feeling less stiff ) they'll admit to really being agnostic. It's the only really rational position, unless you've experienced God directly in some way.

[THUNK]

It appears many religious individuals are merely in it for self - gratification.

I am not superior to any of you. I am perplexed however, that for example Muslims can possibly begin to justify the amount of time they spend in worship. Surely thier God would prefer 80% of that time and energy focused in helping really needy people, or allow more time for family rather than working in thier business?

In other words 'easy to do' worship and proclaimed religious adherence satisfy the user by encouraging them to conclude they are good moral beings. This is unhealthy as it substitutes 'hard to do' practical deeds with mere words & emotional journeying.

[Saponification]

It's not what someone does in a church or temple that counts, it's what they do outside.

[THUNK]

Originally Posted by Saponification

It's not what someone does in a church or temple that counts, it's what they do outside.

I have little knowledge of each religion, however, to me Budhism appears to be about the best in terms of a life - model. You guys are totally at odds with the Christian and other hypocrits I come accross. Budhists in my experience are far more likely to be truly decent people.

As an example, the Local Church Of England group let - out a few properties. If the rent is ever late they are well known to be far from forgiving and tolerant. The oppoisite in fact. They dance, sing, bang tambourines, walk around with fixed grins and preach love. They are simply in it for self gratification and pretense.

Sure, some of you are good moral beings, but Id be prepared to bet many of you are no - where near.

Belonging to organised religion affords people the good feeling that they are decent ethical creatures. IF THEY WERE ATHIESTS, PERHAPS THEY COULD EVALUATE THIER TRUE SELF BETTER.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by THUNK

Budhism appears to be about the best in terms of a life - model. You guys are totally at odds with the Christian and other hypocrits I come accross. Budhists in my experience are far more likely to be truly decent people.

Buddhism is a great life model. I follow Christ and studied Buddhism and never found it to be at odds with my own beliefs at all. There are, in fact, people who embrace both.

I'd sincerely appreciate if you did not imply all Christians are hypocrites. Some people in all faiths are hypocrites, and some aren't. Just because you've run across some that are in Christianity doesn't mean that you should stoop to the level of wholesale stereotyping and prejudice. That is neither showing tolerance nor kindness.

Belonging to organised religion affords people the good feeling that they are decent ethical creatures. IF THEY WERE ATHIESTS, PERHAPS THEY COULD EVALUATE THIER TRUE SELF BETTER.

I disagree. Some religions make people feel they are good. Some fundamental versions of Christianity actually make people feel no matter how ethical they are, they are bad. Neither seems to impact people's actions one wit. People are either truly concerned with morality and self-evaluation, or they're not, regardless of their religion or lack thereof. And most deeply religious folks in any religion would say that if people are deceiving themselves into thinking they are ethical creatures without honest self-reflection and hard work, they are cheating themselves out of real growth and putting themselves in spiritual danger.

[Saponification]

I would not say that followers of Jesus Christ and followers of the Noble Eightfold Path are at odds. There are some people who are... disgusted at the idea of "heathens" having a lot in common with Christians, but well, it's the truth.

Christ and Gotama both expressed values of love, respect and compassion. They both wished for us to be kind for another, to turn the other cheek and they ultimately both provided a "guide to happiness." Both acknowledged that life is difficult and full of suffering.

I would not judge a belief system based on certain... misguided followers. I don't consider myself to be Christian, but I know of many Buddhists who consider themselves as such. Or Jewish or Hindu or, I don't know, whatever. Not all Buddhists are just Buddhists.

I've known of a lot of "bad" Christians. I've also known of a lot of "bad" Buddhists. Again, do not judge a belief system by those who follow it. Both belief systems have members who are very wise, kind, compassionate and respectful people.

[Saponification]

"Money is truly the king in the Muslim world"? Actually, that's Capitalism for you. Money is the be all and end all of our system. It is not a problem specific to any one religious belief system. It is an increasing issue in all Capitalist societies that people aren't able to spend more time with their children and loved ones. Now it is normal for both partners in a relationship to work, for children to be in child care and for teenage children to have jobs of their own.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by THUNK

I did not imply this. Indeed, I said some folk are good moral beings.

You suggest I am intollerant and stereotype people.
In fact all I do is descibe as I find. What I find with religious people is that on the whole there actions dont match thier words. You keep implying 'there is always a bad apple or two', but this, Im afraid reveals someone with thier eyes half shut.

I am not implying that the numbers of folks that are "bad apples" in religion are only one or two. I am saying that you find a vast quantity of people in any belief structure, including atheism, that are self-centered. No one religion- Christianity, Islam, or otherwise has more or less "good moral folk."

Furthermore, you are free to think of me with my eyes shut if you like, but it would not be accurate. Indeed, I study global social and environmental problems professionally, and I am well aware of the many problems with humanity right now. However, we are attributing them to different causes. Religion is not the cause. Certain cultural characteristics, notably the global rise of capitalism and in many societies, the lack of adequate social and economic support to families, is more often than not at the heart of people's self-centered and fear-based action. After all, if you read the sacred texts, all of the world's major religions, and certainly Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, teach taking care of the poor, peacemaking, and love. The problem is not the teachings, the problem is the followers. There is arguably a conflict between capitalistic cultures and these teachings. Many would disagree with me, but many also want to keep their huge house and other stuff, and don't want to see the relationship between materialism and global suffering.

Almost to a Man they have demonstrated untrustworthy and selfish behaviour. For example they shake hands on a deal and at the very last minute reduce thier offer.

I taught business anthropology for the last couple years. What you are describing is not the immorality of Muslims. It is a misunderstanding between your culture and theirs. You perceive such behavior as unethical because you are priveledging your ethic code over theirs. These sorts of problems are very common in business and can generally be better understood and resolved through anthropological training.

You surely dont know the world if you dispute this.

I'm with saponification. Capitalism and materialism are the main drivers in this equation, not Islam. I know many atheists who have given up everything for career, as well as Christians who have done so. It is a cultural motivator in the United States. One is almost expected to give up everything for career and money, and it follows that people are willing to sacrifice others' well-being for their own gratification. It's not a religious thing, it's an economic thing. Furthermore, because of the ever-widening gap between rich and poor, many people find themselves needing two or three full-time jobs to pay for a mortgage and the basic necessities of health care, retirement, etc. Workaholism is not always because of greed.

Being false and 'trying to please everyone' doesnt help the Human race. What helps is truth and justice in the long run.

I certainly am not trying to please everyone, but rather saying that there is, in any social group (religion, ethnicity, culture, whatever) going to be people who really embrace the ethical codes and follow them, and people who don't. And there are various reasons for their actions, all of which must be carefully analyzed before blaming the entire group or insinuating that one group is better than another. While you did not say all Christians are hypocrites, you implied that group was associated with hypocrisy while leaving out other religious groups. Furthermore, you distinctly judged Buddhists to be better than Christians. I am arguing that it doesn't do any good to deal with our social ills by blaming one group or another, or by making stereotypes, which are generally based on cultural misunderstanding or attributing action to the wrong cause. It's not about being P.C.- it's about figuring out why people really do the harmful things they do and fixing the problem.

If we allow people to hide behind thier religious shields, such people can, in thier minds 'excuse' thier bad behavior by balancing it with worship and religious endeavor.

I agree that people can, in their minds, excuse negative courses of action by worship and religious action. I would argue there isn't a whole lot we can do about that. The more you confront such a person, the more self-righteous they typically become. Even within religions, people like this will not typically listen to others who call them on it. It just produces conflict.

So what can we do? Is it hopeless? No. As a social scientist, I find you have to move beyond this end-stage defense mechanism and look at why people are choosing unethical behaviors to begin with. The question is not how to wrestle these folks out from under their religious shields, but rather how to encourage right, ethical action to begin with. What is motivating them in their behaviors? What institutionally is blocking good behavior, or rewarding bad? And- a very important but often overlooked question- why are the folks who are "good" choosing the right behaviors? How do they work into the overall system and its effects? The hope is first, to understand why people are doing what they're doing. Second, to get to the root causes of harmful behavior and change people's options. And third, generally to work within people's belief and cultural systems to frame the change in a way that makes sense and is acceptable to them.

Otherwise, we just end up whining about how bad the world is and how these religious types should get with the program. But that doesn't change things. They've heard it all before. Trust me, I feel your frustration. Been there, done that. Without figuring out a course of action, people just continue to suffer. It's not that I don't agree that many people on earth are currently harming each other. It's just that I don't think it's very useful or constructive to blame various groups or complain about their flaws. I'm more concerned with getting to the root of the problems, on a local level, and then fixing them.

[dayaa]

Originally Posted by THUNK

It appears many religious individuals are merely in it for self - gratification.

I am not superior to any of you. I am perplexed however, that for example Muslims can possibly begin to justify the amount of time they spend in worship. Surely thier God would prefer 80% of that time and energy focused in helping really needy people, or allow more time for family rather than working in thier business?

In other words 'easy to do' worship and proclaimed religious adherence satisfy the user by encouraging them to conclude they are good moral beings. This is unhealthy as it substitutes 'hard to do' practical deeds with mere words & emotional journeying.

hello/salam

actually, muslim prayers would take between about an hour to an hour and a half each day approximately. i'm sure you atheists don't waste a moment of your time which you could be spending doing charitable work!
i'm not quite sure why you expect that people who are praying in mosques or churches should be using THAT time for charitable work. they may well be doing charitable work at some other time while others are busy watching eastenders or down the pub with their mates.
also, muslim people tend to have more traditional views on family life. men are working hard in their businesses to support their families....often not only their own immediate family but also members of extended families (maybe elderly parents for example) back in their countries of origin. in general muslim people tend to be very family orientated.
i am not denying that some muslims and some christians and some of every religion are hypocritical......but by the same token so are some atheists. the simple answer is PEOPLE are not perfect....in varying degrees and in different ways depending on their circumstances. i'm not quite sure why you see religion as the bogey-monster and atheism as the answer. be atheist if you like....if that's what works for you....but there is no need to go religion-bashing.
as for the "eyes half closed" comment.....path has got to be one of the most open-minded and inspiring people on this forum.....
dayaa pulls her semi-automatic out from under her abbae and stands menacingly behind path, in case path's extremely polite responses don't get the respect they deserve

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by dayaa

actually, muslim prayers would take between about an hour to an hour and a half each day approximately. i'm sure you atheists don't waste a moment of your time which you could be spending doing charitable work!
i'm not quite sure why you expect that people who are praying in mosques or churches should be using THAT time for charitable work. they may well be doing charitable work at some other time while others are busy watching eastenders or down the pub with their mates.

That's a good point. I try to spend an hour or so a day in prayer and meditation. But I don't watch TV. The average American watches several hours of TV daily. So I'm actually ahead of schedule. The point is, we all waste time- atheists and theists, religious and non-religious and "spiritual" and irreligious folks alike. Unless you're a Mother Theresa, chances are the bulk of your time is spent working and sleeping, and most of the rest is spent making dinner, picking up the kids, and vacuuming. For a person who is not religious, they can use the remaining few hours in charitable work, but most still use a lot of that time to have fun. For a person who is religious, they also can use those hours in charitable work but also worship. Since a lot of very religious folks don't go for a lot of the TV and movie programming today, and frequently don't go out much to bars or other social events, this leaves their social life open for religious events. Additionally, many of us strategize so our work and charity is combined. Nothing like multi-tasking!

also, muslim people tend to have more traditional views on family life. men are working hard in their businesses to support their families....often not only their own immediate family but also members of extended families (maybe elderly parents for example) back in their countries of origin.

That's a very good point. One must remember that many cultures retain traditional gender roles. It may be what works for them and their families.

path has got to be one of the most open-minded and inspiring people on this forum.....
dayaa pulls her semi-automatic out from under her abbae and stands menacingly behind path, in case path's extremely polite responses don't get the respect they deserve

Gee, thanks. LOL- what a visual!

[InLove]

Hello, and peace!

I am not supposed to be here. I am supposed to be on self-imposed posting restriction for a few days. (I wondered how long I could hold out!) Jumping back off after this, but I have a thought that I believe is important and relevent to this conversation.

I realize that an atheist would not believe in the power of prayer. However many of them would certainly look at the intent behind a person's actions. Many people, including myself, believe that charity includes time and talent, as well as money. Time devoted to intercessory prayer is a charitable act in this context. I have been involved in intercessory prayer before, and I have also been the object of these prayers. I have evidence both in Spirit and in experience that prayer changes things, and I must say emphatically that I would not have traded the blessings I received from being lifted up in Love for any amount of money!

And dayaa? LOLOLOL!!!

InPeace,
InLove

(Is there such thing as "Posters Anonymous?" Back on the wagon I go .)