I Don't Support the Troops

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by kiwimac

YOUR country unleashed this evil. Under Hussein Iraq was a SECULAR state. When Al-Qaida tried to open up office there they were run out of the country, in fact the ONLY area they could find to do their particular brand of evil was in the Kurdish-dominated North of the country.
Kiwimac

Hello Kiwimac,

Sorry you feel that way. But that wasn't always NZ's way.

It seems amazing now in NZ, the country that would have trouble intercepting a Cessna 150 today, but in WWII NZ had the largest percentage of the population serving as military airmen of any nation - and lost the largest percentage of population in aircrew casulaties.
After WWI, when the demobilized forces of Great Britain were facing an uprising in Iraq, the one member of the British Commonwealth that said "No problem. Our troops are available" was New Zealand.
One wonders how you give up an incredible legacy like that.
Simply the absence of a threat does not completely explain it.

I also find it ironic that until Oct/Nov 2004 NZ had troops over in Iraq...64 combat engineers if I'm not mistaken. Their pull out coinsided with a changing of the political guard, from what I have read.

Here is one more thing to consider:

NZ Oil:

Oil - production:

31,740 bbl/day (2003 est.)

Oil - consumption:

151,900 bbl/day (2003 est.)

Oil - exports:

30,220 bbl/day (2001)

Oil - imports:

119,700 bbl/day (2001)

Oil - proved reserves:

89.62 million bbl (1 January 2002)
Apparantely NZ consumes 120,000 barrels of oil per day, more than it produces, or a ratio of 45% imported oil, to the oil it produces. With a population of 4,000,000 that is a consumption rate of 1 barrel for every 33 people. NZ also has an oil reserve of nearly 90 million barrels of oil, as back up.

Now the United States Oil:

Oil - production:

7.61 million bbl/day (2005 est.)

Oil - consumption:

20.03 million bbl/day (2003 est.)

Oil - exports:

1.048 million bbl/day (2004)

Oil - imports:

13.15 million bbl/day (2004)

Oil - proved reserves:

22.45 billion bbl (1 January 2002

Apparently The United States consumes 12,390,300 barrels of oil per day more than it produces, or a ratio of 55% of imported oil to the oil it produces. With a population of 310,000,000 that is a consumption rate of 1 barrel of oil for every 15.5 people. The United States also has an oil reserve of 22.5 billion barrels of oil as back up.

So, per capita, we are close (10% difference), and we get our oil from roughly the same places. Yes we consume twice the oil per person as NZ. We also live in a varied temperate climate, unlike NZ. We also do some fantastic things with our oil that the whole world benefits from, from plastics, to medicines to space exploration, to transportation, to go on and on and on.

Or does that not count?

And there is one thing we do that NZ hasn't considered. We still roll up our collective sleeves and don't mind getting down and dirty. We don't mind going through out the world and putting our necks on the line. We don't mind helping others. Sometimes we get in trouble (that is true). But our hearts are in the right place, even if our government isn't always. Haven't seen that from NZ in a bit of awhile.

I dare chance to say you haven't had to bury your dead...I have, and their lives, my friend were priceless. And you know what? They'd do it all over again.

Be angry at the powers that be, but don't be angry at the soldier that is...he can ill afford the bad "karma".

My thoughts

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Dor

I agree profanities are not needed but I have to ask 1 question....

Is bull**** any worse than god-d***ed?

The same, but the moderator was moving quickly to quell an issue. (no one is perfect).

v/r

Q

[kiwimac]

Brian,

Personal is an attack on a person. The US is a country not a person. The politics of the US, triumphalism, manifest destiny et al is what I am addressing. I am sorry if you see my post as a personal attack on anyone other than the lick-spittle lack-wits who started this war.

You see I find it offensive that one coutnry should feel free to invade another on such spurious grounds. As it stands the biggest threat to world peace are the Neo-cons in power in the US and their lap-dogs in the UK and Australia.

Kiwimac

[kiwimac]

Oh and BTW, here in NZ "God-damned" is NOT considered swearing.

[Dor]

I respect your opinion but like most the world we are the big bad bully and throw our weight around....until it's their rear on the line then they all want our money, troops, support to get their butts outta the sling.

[kiwimac]

We gave up our combat air force because as our PM (Prime Minister) put it, " If the only thing between us and the invading hordes are 16 aging sky-hawks....." (add your own expletive here.)

NZ could be invaded but it seems unlikely. We are more use to folk putting our money into air/sea rescues as we are smack-dab in the roaring 40s of the biggest ocean on earth and into fisheries patrols. We still have medical teams in Iraq and some Engineers but again we are more needed closer to home.

We do use a lot of oil but equally we have not invaded anywhere to ensure our supply, unlike some countries not a million miles away. I am offended at brutality hiding its face and attempting to look coy by proclaiming that the good of the Iraq populace was only ever its sole reason for invasion.

Kiwimac

[China Cat Sunflower]

I should say that, in all honesty, I composed the title of this thread to be an attention grabber. Inflammatory if you will. But that said, I'm asking myself how I can just go along with the idea of supporting the troops when I don't support, at all, what they are doing? What is "the troops"? Just the enlisted men and women? Or is it the entire military complex including the brass and the Commander in Chief? I don't think putting a cute little yellow ribbon on the back of your vehicle makes up for voting this neocon cabal back into office. I don't think it makes up for the lives of our service men and women needlessly lost in an ill advised venture that has resulted in the untimely deaths of hundereds of thousands of innocent human beings, cost us our respect and prestige in the international community, bankrupted our country, and divided us as a people into artifical ideological camps.

I was an F-16 crew chief in the USAF during the first gulf war. I'm no pussy pacifist. How is it that we didn't learn the lessons of Vietnam, and now find ourselves mired down in yet another unwinnable war? And why won't GWB (Global Wrecking Ball) tell us the real reasons we went to war? I'm sick and tired of watching my country being destroyed. Yeah, we have to try make something of the mess we created in Iraq, but that doesn't mean I have to bloody like it. And it doesn't mean I'm going to tacitly support those who got us into this mess by "supporting the troops."

My brother-in law will be heading to Iraq as a fresh, young infantryman very soon. I support his right to try not to get his ass shot off in a war he doesn't even understand.

Chris

[YNOT]

Originally Posted by Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

A young man from my Friday class is going to Iraq tomorrow (Saturday) with his unit. He should be worrying about his finals (like the rest of the students on/off campus), but he's in the Reserves (I think.)

I support most of the troops (not the troops who should receive dishonerable discharges, but the others), but I'm not sure about supporting the mamzers who sent them over while sitting back in their safe, behind-the-scenes offices, some (if not most) haven't ever seen combat, including Shrub.

Sorry about this rant.

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

Don't apologize. Your post was poignant but...most of all....correct.

Tony

[wil]

If we can't stand up to the evil that has been unleashed, who can (shy of Godly intervention)?

Please to remember we created and unleashed the evil...it is 100% known and documented, we built up Sadam's military and economy with US funds, materials, equipment, armament and technological support in order to fight those that took over Iran. We did the same with Osama bin Laden in order to keep the Russians out of Afganistan.

And if our true criteria is human rights violations, or marauding dictatorships, or stopping massive killings....Iraq and Afganistan would not have been first on the list.

It is my understanding that this is a website designed for spiritual discussion, and I offer that if as soon as it was determined that AlQueda and Osamma bin Laden were determined to be behind this...if the US chose instead of an eye for an eye....chose to follow a peaceful and judicial method....asked the entire world to be on the look out for these people, asked for Justice and capture, offered rewards instead of bombs...we would be dollars and lives ahead...have the parties captured and tried and raised our standing in the world...

But we don't have a Department of Peace...we now have a department of pre-emptive strike....makes me feel soooo much safer.

[Quahom1]

Please to remember we created and unleashed the evil...it is 100% known and documented, we built up Sadam's military and economy with US funds, materials, equipment, armament and technological support in order to fight those that took over Iran.

You mean the same government of Iran who intended to take Iraq from the Sunni rulership (Baath party), and give it to the Shiite majority (with Iran as ruler of the whole), that Iran?

We did the same with Osama bin Laden in order to keep the Russians out of Afganistan.

Osama bin Laden was no where to be seen in Afghanistan, during the war with Russia.

And if our true criteria is human rights violations, or marauding dictatorships, or stopping massive killings....Iraq and Afganistan would not have been first on the list.

They weren't.

It is my understanding that this is a website designed for spiritual discussion, and I offer that if as soon as it was determined that AlQueda and Osamma bin Laden were determined to be behind this...if the US chose instead of an eye for an eye....chose to follow a peaceful and judicial method....asked the entire world to be on the look out for these people, asked for Justice and capture, offered rewards instead of bombs...we would be dollars and lives ahead...have the parties captured and tried and raised our standing in the world...

Just when do you think the war on terroism began? 1990? Try 1948. Or if you want to be all encompassing, try 1914. Before that the United States was a "white hulled Naval force", that wanted to remain isolated and neutral from the rest of the world. The US tried to go back to being neutral and isolated after that, but was dragged closer in 1937 and pulled straight in in 1941.

But we don't have a Department of Peace...we now have a department of pre-emptive strike....makes me feel soooo much safer.

Until the next time when a city comes down without warning, or a port explodes, or a nuclear facilty meltdown...then I suspect you will be so angry no one did anything to forsee and attempt to prevent it. Or perhaps you will blame the United States for an attack on its own land, and tell us that we deserve what we get. You're not the first, nor I suspect the last.

That too is your right.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

You mean the same government of Iran who intended to take Iraq from the Sunni rulership (Baath party), and give it to the Shiite majority (with Iran as ruler of the whole), that Iran?

yes that Iran...not saying we didn't have reason...Just saying we gotta watch who we get in bed with and who we create

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Osama bin Laden was no where to be seen in Afghanistan, during the war with Russia.

Not according to Col. North

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Just when do you think the war on terroism began? 1990? Try 1948. Or if you want to be all encompassing, try 1914. Before that the United States was a "white hulled Naval force", that wanted to remain isolated and neutral from the rest of the world. The US tried to go back to being neutral and isolated after that, but was dragged closer in 1937 and pulled straight in in 1941.

My homeland security shirt says 1492

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Until the next time when a city comes down without warning, or a port explodes, or a nuclear facilty meltdown...then I suspect you will be so angry no one did anything to forsee and attempt to prevent it. Or perhaps you will blame the United States for an attack on its own land, and tell us that we deserve what we get. You're not the first, nor I suspect the last.

That too is your right.

Q, not like you to put words in my mouth. Again my point is we have a flawed system. We created these 'monsters' and more, we trained them, provided intel and weaponry. They were our buddies till they suited us no longer and it has come back to bite us numerous times. We stay away from int'l courts in these situations as we don't want reprisals against us in the same manner.

As I said, I firmly believe we need to stay and insure that these countries can stand on their own, as we tore apart their infrastructure...course the taliban had opium in check...those warlords are our current buddies maintaing order... It is all quite complicated. We've spent billions, killed plenty and are far from order in either country...and still don't have Osama.

I don't liken that to a successful operation. Let's not differentiate between praying for the safety of people including our troops and realizing what a mistake the whole debacle was.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

Q, not like you to put words in my mouth. Again my point is we have a flawed system. We created these 'monsters' and more, we trained them, provided intel and weaponry. They were our buddies till they suited us no longer and it has come back to bite us numerous times. We stay away from int'l courts in these situations as we don't want reprisals against us in the same manner.

As I said, I firmly believe we need to stay and insure that these countries can stand on their own, as we tore apart their infrastructure...course the taliban had opium in check...those warlords are our current buddies maintaing order... It is all quite complicated. We've spent billions, killed plenty and are far from order in either country...and still don't have Osama.

I don't liken that to a successful operation. Let's not differentiate between praying for the safety of people including our troops and realizing what a mistake the whole debacle was.

This whole particular "debacle" began officially in 1948, when certain Middle Eastern authorities decided for whatever reasons, that there was not going to be an official, and soveriegn Iraeli state. It hasn't stopped since. What you're describing, is that now we are in the forefront, instead of being a spectator, or behind the scenes.

And you know I have a viable solution to offer. Let's get out! First, let's get off the whine game (collectively and politically)and knuckle down and make ourselves energy independent...from everyone. The hell with the cost, and we could make it happen in five years.

Then, pull out, from everywhere. From that point on the US could offer humanitarian aid, or economic aid to those in need (through and only through the UN). Close our borders (I mean lock them up tight).

Then, and only then we would be no threat to anyone. Is it achievable? technically, yes. Socially, economically and morally? no.

Those endowed with the greatest assets, and power, also are burdened with the greatest responsibilities, popular or not.

No body is perfect, and we are a perfect example. But I don't see anyone else offering to step up to the plate...not even the precious United Nations who are supposed to be the world's answers to these issues.

Wil, in reality we have the power to end this problem tomorrow, permanently. But that would be ethically, morally and humanly so heinous, we can't even bring ourselves to think about it. And the government (any government) will always be strongly influenced by those that have money, and power, and an agenda all their own. Those people get their money and power from the consumer who demands a certain level of lifestyle. Again, it is us (the citizen) that has the ultimate responsibility for how things go.

v/r

Q

[wil]

100% agree on I think all counts....

the lines in the sand that were drawn in Africa and the middle east have turned tribal battles into civil wars and warring countries ever since...

we can't turn our back on the world...

but we could start considering to use some more principled methods...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

...we can't turn our back on the world...

but we could start considering to use some more principled methods...

No way to fight by the "rules of civilized war" when the enemby adheres to no such rules AND, the innocent majority of civilians who watch everything by everyone do nothing to help themselves by helping the side that is fighting for them, and their cause.

As stated before. This is like no war we've ever seen before. One side has decided borders, and rules of engagement, and the other has no sides, no borders, no rules of engagement, no value for life, no value for people.

If you read history, this was tried once before but was stopped before it really ever got going. The Roman legions, having to deal with insurgent attacks from "shadow assassins", decided to remove the shadows by letting the sun shine on everything. In short, the Romans leveled the cities, and left no foundation stone unturned. They scattered the inhabitants to the four corners of the land. Everything was destroyed, everyone was affected guilty or not.

I do not think that is the way we want to go either. This is more up to the inhabitants of Iraq and Afghanistan, than it is anyone else, to cast the deciding factor of which way they want to live. But as long as they remain indecisive, there will be no end to the fighting. Even if we pull out, the fighting will escalate to levels I hate to consider.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

And you know I have a viable solution to offer. Let's get out! First, let's get off the whine game (collectively and politically)and knuckle down and make ourselves energy independent...from everyone. The hell with the cost, and we could make it happen in five years.

Hmmm...just think about the outcry if we were to do this (no drilling in my back yard). While I'm not a supporter of draconian methods, what a quick way this would be to 'hit home' the problems of our wasteful ways...

lunamoth