I dont get it....

[NoName]

Hello its bin a while since I posted here there somthing that I dont understand about Islam that I hoping you could clear up. Muhmuda is the last prophet and tells the world the Jesus is not the son of god and there is no trinty, right? Stop me if I get any of this wrong and if I do, sorry, and in both the Christian religon and the Muslims tell us Jesus never sins but in the muslims religon jesus still claimed to be son of god. So if the Muslim jesus is perfect then why did he say somthing that was not ture. He could not have lied becuase then he would of sin, but he is the a perfect man as well so he could not have made a mistake. So why do the muslims need Muhamud (I know spelled wrong sorry ) to say that ether jesus lied or at leat made a mistake when both the Christians and the muslims belive he was pefect?

Sorry for my bad spelling, the sad part is I want to become a writer.

[aburaees]

Originally Posted by NoName

Hello its bin a while since I posted here there somthing that I dont understand about Islam that I hoping you could clear up. Muhmuda is the last prophet and tells the world the Jesus is not the son of god and there is no trinty, right? Stop me if I get any of this wrong and if I do, sorry, and in both the Christian religon and the Muslims tell us Jesus never sins but in the muslims religon jesus still claimed to be son of god. So if the Muslim jesus is perfect then why did he say somthing that was not ture. He could not have lied becuase then he would of sin, but he is the a perfect man as well so he could not have made a mistake. So why do the muslims need Muhamud (I know spelled wrong sorry ) to say that ether jesus lied or at leat made a mistake when both the Christians and the muslims belive he was pefect?

Sorry for my bad spelling, the sad part is I want to become a writer.

There is no Islamic source in which Jesus claims to be the son of God. The claim was made by other people and attributed to Jesus.

[Light]

aburaees, I concur...

Jesus always claims himself a prophet. There is no source within the Islamic scriptures that says otherwise.

[Aidyl Nurhadi]

Assaluamu'alaikum Warahmatullah,
As have been clarified by the two brothers above there is no mention of the Prophet Jesus a.s. or Isa a.s. as the "Son of God" in any authentic Islamic source namely in the Qur'an and Ahadith. In Islam he is known as the son of Mary/Mariam(Isa ibn Maryam, Surah Al-Imran, verse45)...He was a human and messenger appointed by Allah the One True Lord of the Worlds, no more, no less. But anyway the Bible does call him the son of God. But I would reason that this does not denote a literal meaning. Christians would have it that this title "Son of God" is actualy something unique and in the Bible is bestowed only to Jesus. This is far from the truth. Many other Biblical personages are called the Sons of God. The following are some examples :
"The Lord said to Me,'Thou art My Son, this day I have begotten Thee.'"(Psalms 2:7)

"So, that one shall be My son, and I will be his Father."(1 Chronicles 22:10)

"This is the Lord's message,'Israel is My first born son.'"(Exodus 4:22)

"You are God's, indeed, you are all sons of the Most High."(Psalms 82:6)

Some are even called Gods! Satan is called the God of the world..does that mean he controls the world i.e. weather, and life itself? absolutely not..you see people are taking these metaphorical things literally. The Bible is filled with Hebraic metaphores and similes. Unfortunately the believers of the Bible are looking at them not through Jewish glasses but rather through Greek glasses. That's why all the confusion.....

[Azure24]

I quote you said "...Believers of the Bible..." I recomend you rephrase that because Christain people actually do visit this section (in case you didn't already know). But to the most point i agree with you. We are all son's of God i.e. children of God i.e. Gods creation. Also consider this the Bible wasn't originally written in English perhaps the translation was corrupted. Or maybe Jesus really is the son of God? Who is to say otherwise The Qui'ran? But it is but only book as is the Bible who is to say who is Wrong? All i say is this, Jesus was concieved of immaculate conception. Everyone has a father, therefore who is Jesus'?

[Nusaybah]

The Quran recognizes the fact that Jesus had no human father, but this does not make him the son of God, or God himself. By this criterion, Adam would have been more entitled more entitled to be the son of God, because he had neither a father nor a mother, so the Quran draws attention to the miraculous creation of both in the following verses; " truly the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then He said upon him, 'Be' and hi was. (Al-Imran 3:59)
The Quran rejects the concept of Trinity God the Father, God the son, God the Holy Spirit - as strongly as it rejects the concept of Jesus as the son of God. This is because GOD IS ONE. Three cannot be one. The Quran addresses Christians in the following verses from the Surrah entitled "An-Nisaa" (The Women)
People of the Book, do not go beyond the bounds in your religion, and say nought as to God but the Truth. The messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the messenger of God, and his word (Fulfilment of his word (Fulfilment of His command, through the word "Be", for the creation of Jesus) that he committed to Mary, and a spirit originating from Him (was given life by God). So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not 'Three'. Refrain, better is for you. God is only one God. Glory be to him-that He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the Heavens and in the Earth; God suffices for a guardian

[Azure24]

Is it not God that made all things, therefore all things are through God. Which means that God is many things. The whole trinity thing is not to be taken literally, it just means that Jesus and the Holy Spirit both share his likeness.

[Azure24]

The Son is the manifestation of God in action, the physical connection between God the Father and his creation, together forming a complete and perfect God. He personifies love and compassion and volunteers to die for humankind in order to redeem them, showing his dedication and selflessness. Through his human form the Son will be descended from Adam, through whom all men died, but He will be a second Adam, by whom all men shall be saved.

[Light]

Is it not God that made all things, therefore all things are through God. Which means that God is many things. The whole trinity thing is not to be taken literally, it just means that Jesus and the Holy Spirit both share his likeness.

Muslims don't look at it that way. Allah made everything in this world. By Allah simply saying 'be' what HE will is created. Therefore, contrast to what you've said, we know the existence of God through all HIS Creation.

Holy Trinity - Let me remind you that this is the Islam forum, thus don't push your doctorine on us. On the Holy Trinity, Muslims totally reject this as it was rejected by the verses in Quran. You've said that it should not be taken literally, the fact of associating God as one and three is a very confusing statement.

By you saying that Jesus and Holy Spirit both share his (I am assuming his is God's) likeness, you're claiming that you can visualise God physical form. That is also unacceptable in Islam. Simply because no one can see God in this life, and it is not permissible for us to associate God to any objects in this world. God is unique and beyond the realms of our limited imagination. Thus the only way to know HIM is by his attributes. That is why you can never find any reference in Islam about God physical form.

The Son is the manifestation of God in action, the physical connection between God the Father and his creation, together forming a complete and perfect God. He personifies love and compassion and volunteers to die for humankind in order to redeem them, showing his dedication and selflessness. Through his human form the Son will be descended from Adam, through whom all men died, but He will be a second Adam, by whom all men shall be saved.

Are you saying that God the Father is not perfect without his creation? So, that imply that God needed his creation to become perfect. Thus, we can say that, base on your belief, God in the beginning is not perfect. That is totally absurd in Islam. Distinctively we know that Allah is Al-Azimu (THE MAGNIFICENT, THE GREAT ONE).

If Jesus voluteers to die for humankind in order to redeem them, how did he achieve his goal for people who die before him? Does this mean all the people (previous civilisation before the coming of Jesus) will go to hell because they don't believe in Jesus?

You said that the Son is the manifestation of God in action, have you ever ask yourself - Why do God need his Son to act for him? If he needs help from his Son, then it is showing that God is not independant. Muslims believe that Allah is independant. See Surah 112 Translation below;

112: 1. In the name of ALLAH, the Gracious, the Merciful.
112: 2. Say `He is ALLAH, the One !
112: 3. ALLAH the Independent and Besought of all.
112: 4. `HE begets not, nor, is HE begotten,
112: 5. And there is none like unto HIM.

By what you've said, it invalidates this verses. Thus why we Muslims do not believe Christian theology.

Talking about him volunteering to die for humankind, I can show you in the bible that this is not true. If someone volunteers, he will come forward without a fight. However the bible is saying otherwise. Look into Matthew 26:34-39. These verses describe how Jesus plans for his defence by putting 8 of his disciple at the entrance and place the other 2 further inside to make an inner line of defence. Then he prayed as described in 37-39. Pay attention to verses 37-39.

And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.
(HOLY BIBLE) Matthew 26: 37-39

Can I ask you, does Christian pray like Jesus did in the verse above? Fell on his face? I can say that Muslims prayed like Jesus, Fall our face - our forhead, both palms, both knees and two soles touching the ground.
The last statement 'nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt' - this is a quality of a good muslims whom submit to God's will.

Regards.

[Aidyl Nurhadi]

Originally Posted by Azure24

Is it not God that made all things, therefore all things are through God. Which means that God is many things. The whole trinity thing is not to be taken literally, it just means that Jesus and the Holy Spirit both share his likeness.

Yes we go side by side as far as God being the creator of everything. But you see....you're now applying the concept of anthropomorphism to the Divine Creator as what the believers of the Vedas(Hindus) have done. The difference between me and you is that I believe God is one and only one and there is none like unto him(Surah al-ikhlas). Nothing can ever be associated with him. God is God and He must never be confused with His creations. This is the stand of the Muslims...you on the other hand contrariwise these conceptions.

The trinity should not be taken literally? How should it be taken then? Why don't you explain the Athanisian creed to us....

[BlaznFattyz]

in one of the surah's isnt there reference to the holy spirit?

in christianity, jesus is not a creation. although he was born on earth of God's holy spirit to a virgin and lived on earth for a short while, he always existed as the Word of God, with God, as God, and back to heaven to the throne of God he went from where he came.

[Aidyl Nurhadi]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

in one of the surah's isnt there reference to the holy spirit?

in christianity, jesus is not a creation. although he was born on earth of God's holy spirit to a virgin and lived on earth for a short while, he always existed as the Word of God, with God, as God, and back to heaven to the throne of God he went from where he came.

The Ruh al-quds mentioned in the Qur'an is Malaikah Jibrail or the Angel Gabriel...He was the one who brought glad tidings to Maryam the mother of Isa a.s. regarding the imaculate conception that she went through....Allah says in the Qur'an that for Him to create Jesus He merely has to say Kun Faya Kun meaning Be and it is. The Muslims do not believe in the Christians' story of Jesus' imaculate conception.

[Azure24]

Originally Posted by Light

Let me remind you that this is the Islam forum, thus don't push your doctorine on us.

Then let me remind you (as a visitor learning about other faiths), just because this is The Islam forum it doesn't mean you can push it on me niether.

Originally Posted by Light

By you saying that Jesus and Holy Spirit both share his (I am assuming his is God's) likeness, you're claiming that you can visualise God physical form. That is also unacceptable in Islam.

Wrong, by saying his likeness i am not claiming that i can visualise God's form (God doesn't have a physical from, you should know that). What i mean by likeness is by his views, and his teachings.

Originally Posted by Light

...you can never find any reference in Islam about God physical form.

Nor can you in Christianity (remember there isn't any).

Originally Posted by Light

Are you saying that God the Father is not perfect without his creation? So, that imply that God needed his creation to become perfect.

Says who?

Originally Posted by Light

If Jesus voluteers to die for humankind in order to redeem them, how did he achieve his goal for people who die before him? Does this mean all the people (previous civilisation before the coming of Jesus) will go to hell because they don't believe in Jesus?

No, because people don't believe in Jesus. They believe in God. Also because of Jesus there are more people aware of God's presence (not neccesary believers though). He is also responsible for one of the largest religions in the world, some achievement don't you think?

Originally Posted by Light

You said that the Son is the manifestation of God in action, have you ever ask yourself - Why do God need his Son to act for him?

I've asked myself, and myself says there are some ignorant people in this world who don't understand and God himself isn't going to come down from his Kingdom to get through to those ...Lets say slower ones is he? So he sent a human representative with his likeness (don't start that again). And besides if you ask and i quote 'Why do God need his Son to act for him?' you must then also ask why does God need anyone to act for him? So then explain the use of prophets to me then?

Originally Posted by Light

Thus why we Muslims do not believe Christian theology.

Hmmm, no offence but i don't believe in Islam's (on some points) theology as well.

Originally Posted by Light

Talking about him volunteering to die for humankind, I can show you in the bible that this is not true. If someone volunteers, he will come forward without a fight. However the bible is saying otherwise. Look into Matthew 26:34-39. These verses describe how Jesus plans for his defence by putting 8 of his disciple at the entrance and place the other 2 further inside to make an inner line of defence. Then he prayed as described in 37-39. Pay attention to verses 37-39.

Jesus was not planning a defence he simply did not want to be interupted in his prayer. If he indeed was not volunteering he simply would've escaped, he knew Judas was to betray him did he do anything about it?

Originally Posted by Light

Can I ask you, does Christian pray like Jesus did in the verse above? Fell on his face? I can say that Muslims prayed like Jesus, Fall our face - our forhead, both palms, both knees and two soles touching the ground.

We do not pray properly, therefore God will condem us and send us to hell!

Originally Posted by Light

The last statement 'nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt' - this is a quality of a good muslims whom submit to God's will.

Remember you read this from the Bible, so this is an example to christians. I do not speak for all Christians though, but do you think i only do things only for my own will? Well your wrong because i don't. Also I'm not here to create arguments but don't discredit other people's beliefs to justify your own, what else are you doing? I respect you though, as we may be of different religions but we both follow the same God (or so i think?).

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by Aidyl Nurhadi

The Ruh al-quds mentioned in the Qur'an is Malaikah Jibrail or the Angel Gabriel...He was the one who brought glad tidings to Maryam the mother of Isa a.s. regarding the imaculate conception that she went through....Allah says in the Qur'an that for Him to create Jesus He merely has to say Kun Faya Kun meaning Be and it is. The Muslims do not believe in the Christians' story of Jesus' imaculate conception.

if there is no need for interpretation because the quran says exactly what it means to say, then for any muslim to say "gabriel" when surahs say "holy spirit" is stretching scripture, or what say you?

2:87"And We gave to Moses the Book, and after him send succeeding Messengers; and We gave Jesus son of Mary the clear signs, and confirmed him with the Holy Spirit; and whensoever there came to you a Messenger with that your souls had not desire for, did you become arrogant, and some cry lies to, and some slay?"

2:253 "Of those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others, and of whom there are some unto whom Allah spake, while some of them He exalted (above others) in degree; and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty) and We supported him with the holy Spirit. And if Allah had so wiled it, those who followed after them would not have fought one with another after the clear proofs had come unto them. But they differed, some of them believing and some disbelieving. And if Allah had so willed it, they would not have fought one with another; but Allah doeth what He will."

110. Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

16:102 "Say: The holy Spirit hath delivered it from thy Lord with truth, that it may confirm (the faith of) those who believe, and as guidance and good tidings for those who have surrendered (to Allah)."

[Light]

Then let me remind you (as a visitor learning about other faiths), just because this is The Islam forum it doesn't mean you can push it on me niether.

Good that you know. Never in my previous post did I ever thought of pushing our doctorine to you. You're in the Islam forum and this is the place where non-Muslim ask Muslims about our faith. We don't have to defend our believe to you. If you ask we answer in the proper manner. Not like the way you did, simply professing your believe here. Hang on - if you want to do that, you can always do that in the Christian Forum.

Let me quote what you've written that lead to why I have to remind you...

Originally Posted by Azur24
I quote you said "...Believers of the Bible..." I recomend you rephrase that because Christain people actually do visit this section (in case you didn't already know).

If you feel the need to defend your faith as you do above, you can always set up a topic in the Christian forum. Like we did when someone post in the Christian Forum that they don't believe Muhammad (peace be upon him) is a prophet just because he is rich. Thus a topic was opened in Islam Forum to discuss this. See http://www.comparative-religion.com/...rich-4969.html

We would expect the same respect from you.

Originally Posted by Azur24
Wrong, by saying his likeness i am not claiming that i can visualise God's form (God doesn't have a physical from, you should know that). What i mean by likeness is by his views, and his teachings.

Good that you clarify. Thus, if it is likeness by his views and his teachings, then Jesus is just a prophet like all Prophets who are doing the same. All prophets from Adam (pbuh) to Muhammad (pbuh) have likeness by HIS views and HIS teachings.

Says who?

Read your earlier post.

The Son is the manifestation of God in action, the physical connection between God the Father and his creation, together forming a complete and perfect God

If that is not what you mean, please explain.

No, because people don't believe in Jesus. They believe in God. Also because of Jesus there are more people aware of God's presence (not neccesary believers though). He is also responsible for one of the largest religions in the world, some achievement don't you think?

So, there is a difference for people before and after Jesus. OK, let's take what you say for now.
Being the largest religion, doesn't mean it is the right one. Same for Islam. However, Islam doesn't force people to accept its teaching. Rather it challenge you to think and search the truth. By looking through Allah's creation. I don't say that Christianity does any different, however, for a start the concept of Trinity was very hard to grasps. When I asked different domination, they have different explanation and not one have a uniform explanation of the concept. Islam is simple. The is one God you have to worship. If you are in difficulty, HE is the one you asked for help. If you are in happiness, HE is the one you praised.

I've asked myself, and myself says ...

When you asked yourself, and yourself says - who is that really who gives you the answer? Holy spirit, God, Satan? Even for Muslims, we do a lot of reflection on ourself, we perform prayers and meditate by repeating Allah attributes. Even then, we always consult fellow Muslims when in doubt. This is because we know that Satan are always around and does not reserve any effort to lead us astray.

...there are some ignorant people in this world who don't understand and God himself isn't going to come down from his Kingdom to get through to those ...Lets say slower ones is he? So he sent a human representative with his likeness (don't start that again). And besides if you ask and i quote 'Why do God need his Son to act for him?' you must then also ask why does God need anyone to act for him? So then explain the use of prophets to me then?

For a start, Muslim perfectly understood God. HE creates this world and the whole universe. Muslims aren't ignorant of this fact as it is a part of their article of faith. There is even a story of Moses who is very inquisitive. One day Moses asked God if God ever sleep. God then asked Moses to hold an object on both hand. After a while, Moses fell asleep and dropped the object he is holding. When he awoke, God then told him that if God does sleep, the whole universe will be wiped off in a winked of an eye like Moses dropping the object he is holding. The example I quote is to explain to you that God is different from us. HE is unique, doesn't need sleep nor feel tired. All this attributes are created by HIM. HE don't have the necessity like we do. HE created us, human and Jinns purely to worship HIM.

Back to the topic, it is God's wisdom that HE sents prophets to the people. Muslims don't believe that God does not go up and down from his Kingdom, HE is Omnipresent. Present everywhere! Face it this way, even if God do show HIMself here on earth, there will still be some of us who will not follow HIS teaching. In fact there is one narration where in Judgement Day, the non-believers request from God to give them another life on earth to set things right and worship HIM earnestly.

Right, I have no doubt that God send representatives (prophets) to the people, but HE made no distinction between them. Muslims are taught to do the same and to believe in all the prophets. Therefore, Jesus (pbuh) is a prophet like Adam (pbuh), Idris (pbuh), Nuh (pbuh), Hud (pbuh), Saleh (pbuh), Ibrahim (pbuh), Ismail (pbuh), Lut (pbuh), Ishak (pbuh), Yacob (pbuh), Yusuf (pbuh), Ayyub (pbuh), Shuaib (pbuh), Musa (pbuh), Harun (pbuh), Zulkifli (pbuh), Daud (pbuh), Sulaiman (pbuh), Ilyas (pbuh), Ilyasaa (pbuh), Yunus (pbuh), Zakaria (pbuh), Yahya (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh). So what are their duty then? To spread the concept of Tawhid - believe in One and only God and HE has no association.

Hmmm, no offence but i don't believe in Islam's (on some points) theology as well.

Well, I don't expect you to. Islam does not force people in accepting the faith. The famous verse which says - 'There is no compulsion in religion' is enough for you to take heed.

Jesus was not planning a defence he simply did not want to be interupted in his prayer. If he indeed was not volunteering he simply would've escaped, he knew Judas was to betray him did he do anything about it?

The fact being, he didn't escape and prior to that he commanded his disciple to carry swords. Why do he need them to carry swords if it is not for defence? OK, lets say he did not want to be interrupted in his prayer. So, what exactly is he praying for, especially like you said he knew Judas was to betray him.

We do not pray properly, therefore God will condem us and send us to hell!

We - as in you? Isn't that a fearful thought, bearing that we only have 60 - 80 earth life years to prepare for it. Hmm... at least we know that our prayers are similar to the way Jesus (pbuh) did. Thus, based on your statement, God will not condem us to hell! Praise be to Allah, the owner of the day of judgement. Thanks for pointing that out Azur24.

Remember you read this from the Bible, so this is an example to christians. I do not speak for all Christians though, but do you think i only do things only for my own will? Well your wrong because i don't. Also I'm not here to create arguments but don't discredit other people's beliefs to justify your own, what else are you doing? I respect you though, as we may be of different religions but we both follow the same God (or so i think?).

Oh, I see.. my apology because I thought the Bible is for the whole humanity. Thus, forgive me because I didn't know that it is an example for christians only. We are worshipping the same God. The same God that Adam (pbuh), Moses(pbuh), Isa(pbuh), Muhammad(pbuh) worship. The difference is small, THEOLOGY.

On the contrary, Islam is for the whole humanity. Especially for those who wants to think and find the truth. In it contains challenges, facts and teaching that guide human to the right path according to Allah's command. Thus, you're more than welcome to read Quran and dispel all of it while reading. See if it does not make sense. I know some people claimed certain statement in the Quran as absurd and doesn't hold the argument. That will be a different discussion, but what I can say is something that we have not discovered now and was mentioned in the Quran does not prove anything. It does not mean that the Quran is false and have errors. Many times do people make such statement but was later discredited when new discoveries disprove their claims and concur with the Quran.