I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Cyberpi!

While your points regarding McVeigh, etc., are quite valid, it misses the point. I was relating an incident in my life. This is my "testamony," although I am loath to use that particular term. At no point in my post do I recall saying McVeigh acted as or on behalf of Christians (although, as you pointed to, he did act in part on behalf of Christians at Waco).

The lesson was the end result of intolerance, and extreme prejudice. It was aimed at a particular person who was behaving quite prejudicial and intolerant on the Christianity boards.

So, while your points of McVeigh being ex-army and his actions aimed at the government, the point and the reasoning still stands...it was me who quoted Revelations, I did not suggest McVeigh quoted Revelations. I did quote McVeigh quoting Henley.

Since it seems a rather frequently asked question, this thread and the other similar are stickied in part because Brian initially thought it well to do so, and in part because I tire of writing new threads to chastise the intolerant bigots among us.

While this may well be appropo in other sections like philosophy or even politics, it was written specifically from the vantage of my Christian faith walk, and how I in combination with a militia-mindset was headed in the exact same direction McVeigh was. Oklahoma City was my personal wake up call to the danger inherent in intolerance.

In my mind, that lesson is further borne out by the actions of September 11, 2001. And you are quite correct, also borne out by a host of other actions perpetrated with extreme prejudice by intolerant bigots of various stripes, not solely Christian.

[cyberpi]

Juantoo3,
Ok thanks for explaining the intent. I think where I differ, and I am surely drawing from a former exchange, is on the polar difference between a word and a stone. If you still believe the two are sometimes the same then you are in good company, but I'm not in it. It seemed to me in your intellectual or enlightening post, throwing a stone (a bomb) was being supplanted or compared to words that might reveal intolerance, disrespect, or bigotry within a person. If you think about it, if someone's goal is to use a forum to help people to see something or learn something, then words counter to the lesson are to be expected. Sort of like mistakes on homework are to be expected. Like the Jane Elliot experiment, being in the situation helps to get even a person who denies it, to see and understand it.

I ascribe to the words_can_not_hurt club, and as an example I noticed soon after 9/11 that terrorist web pages were removed for 'inciting hatred' by the government, or by vigilantes. They were censored. CONDEMNED. No free speech. I find that was a BIG MISTAKE. People need to see it and to judge it. It favors the cause. Without the examples we live in ignorance of the people we live with. Imagine if any words from Tim McVeigh and the news of the bombing were censored from the news entirely for fear that others might feel the hatred and also bomb the US government?! In some countries that would be the case. I do not mean to diminish the counter-lesson provided by Mr. McVeigh of what not to do, only that I do not see the application of what Jesus taught in it. Timothy McVeigh threw real stones, he was rebuked, I don't know if he repented, but he was certainly not forgiven. He too was condemned. Lesson learned?

I should note, that nowhere do you call for censorship. I'm there with you to rebuke intolerance or bigotry, but I belong to the 'words_can_only_do_good' club. I have been mislead by lies, but I recognize that those lies also served a purpose. They revealed something.

I think where confusion in Christianity can arise is that Jesus made 'generalizations' about Pharisees, Jews, or tax collectors. Taken into context of those who were there at that moment to hear the words, the generalizations serve as a means to communicate. Taken to mean that a Pharisee is definitively not righteous and is not going to heaven then it becomes an example of racism or ethnocentrism. In my view, seeing a person by the genes or ethnicity instead of by the willful actions is simply anti-Christian. Similar to seeing the father instead of the Father in a person. On that I think we agree.

[Thomas]

Hey juantoo3 —

For some reason I've never read your post until now. I wish I'd read it sooner.

Wise, wise words ...

Pax tecum, and a heartfelt thanks,

Thomas

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hey juantoo3 —

For some reason I've never read your post until now. I wish I'd read it sooner.

Wise, wise words ...

Pax tecum, and a heartfelt thanks,

Thomas

Like the Bible, we don't see until it is time to see...

you agree?

[Thomas]

Yes indeed.

[cyberpi]

So banning or censoring an alleged bigot is considered... tolerance? Intolerance of intolerance? Not in my religion.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

So banning or censoring an alleged bigot is considered... tolerance? Intolerance of intolerance? Not in my religion.

Good thing I don't follow your religion.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Good thing I don't follow your religion.

Love a bigot as you love yourself? Do unto a bigot as you would that the bigots do unto you?

Or is it: Ban a bigot and make him someone else's neighbor instead?! Love your neighbor... unless he is an uncivil bigot?!

I wonder what religion Christ approves of.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Love a bigot as you love yourself? Do unto a bigot as you would that the bigots do unto you?

Or is it: Ban a bigot and make him someone else's neighbor instead?! Love your neighbor... unless he is an uncivil bigot?!

I wonder what religion Christ approves of.

I think that is "neighbor", not qualifier as bigot...that is a "judgment" call...

[cyberpi]

Love a sinner differently than you love yourself? Do unto a sinner differently than you would that others do unto you? Ban a sinner and make him someone else's neighbor?

[dattaswami1]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

“I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.”
- by William Henley,
excerpt from “INVICTUS”,

As I open with these infamous words, let me say I am well aware of the implications and still vivid co...................t our lives, f.............tle background as to where I am coming from, why I believe the way I do, and why I am SOOO insistent on respect and tolerance. I am thankful to God and for Brian providing this place. It allows me to put my faith and philosophy into action.

Fate of a soul


It is a misunderstanding that the life history of every soul is written by God or destiny. God is certainly the creator of this whole world like the builder of the stage and the supplier of dress for a drama. He is responsible up to this level only. The story, dialogues and actions are written by the created self only. The self is pure awareness and is called as causal body, but is composed of several types of vibrations which are the feelings or thoughts or qualities.

The various types result due to various mixing proportions of Sattvam, Rajas and Tamas. Some of these thoughts have become very strong since from several millions of births. Such solidified thoughts are like hard diamonds. The bundle of such diamonds is called as the subtle body. The soul writes its own story of drama based on the directions of these diamonds (Samskaras or Vasanas). Thus, in that way, these diamonds can be treated as destiny. But this destiny has nothing to do with God. The soul itself created its own destiny.

Therefore, the theme of the drama will be uniform in any number of births of that soul. How to change these diamonds? You can change the destiny. The only way is to cut these diamonds by divine diamonds which come out from the preaching of divine knowledge by God through human form called as Satguru. Gita says clearly that God has not created anything and only the nature of the soul, which is bundle of these diamonds, is deciding the theme of the life of any soul here (Svabhavastu Pravartate). When God enters this world in human form, then only God writes His own program which is the story of His divine play.

Gita says that if you recognize such human incarnation and His divine mission, you will be liberated through your participation (Janama Karmacha Me Divyam…).

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by dattaswami1

Fate of a soul


It is a misunderstanding that the life history of every soul is written by God or destiny. God is certainly the creator of this whole world like the builder of the stage and the supplier of dress for a drama. He is responsible up to this level only. The story, dialogues and actions are written by the created self only. The self is pure awareness and is called as causal body, but is composed of several types of vibrations which are the feelings or thoughts or qualities.

The various types result due to various mixing proportions of Sattvam, Rajas and Tamas. Some of these thoughts have become very strong since from several millions of births. Such solidified thoughts are like hard diamonds. The bundle of such diamonds is called as the subtle body. The soul writes its own story of drama based on the directions of these diamonds (Samskaras or Vasanas). Thus, in that way, these diamonds can be treated as destiny. But this destiny has nothing to do with God. The soul itself created its own destiny.

Therefore, the theme of the drama will be uniform in any number of births of that soul. How to change these diamonds? You can change the destiny. The only way is to cut these diamonds by divine diamonds which come out from the preaching of divine knowledge by God through human form called as Satguru. Gita says clearly that God has not created anything and only the nature of the soul, which is bundle of these diamonds, is deciding the theme of the life of any soul here (Svabhavastu Pravartate). When God enters this world in human form, then only God writes His own program which is the story of His divine play.

Gita says that if you recognize such human incarnation and His divine mission, you will be liberated through your participation (Janama Karmacha Me Divyam…).

Then what you've just done is placed human limitations upon God. This is ludicrous considering that God is outside of time, space, physical planes of existence as we know them. Time is a tool for the mortal, not the immortal, therefore, what happened yesterday, today, and tomorrow, God sees all at once. Which means He knows the life history of every creature, including you and me.

v/r

Q

[17th Angel]

You are right, you are the master and captain.... Even if you believe in a divine presence you still are master and captain.... It's up to you if you choose to accept it or not.... Isn't that what a master/captain/insert other high rank chooses? Be it good or bad outcome.... You decide what you decide regardless of the circumstances or consquinces...... lol I spelt that wrong and I know it! But I am such a bad ass... I ain't going to change it... How you like dem apples?

Anyway.... Yeah, you are the master of your fate... If you have this divine presence... He can only judge your outcome... but if you wish to follow certain paths that is you that has sealed that fate... Not god. So interesting to see those who believe in a god, and yet they still point their fingers and blame him for outcomes and such.... When if they were like me, and others sure you can believe in a god... But, you are the one to blame... Not your god, you are the one that has made the error... You are the fault... Accept it.

[cyberpi]

I am NOT the Master of my fate... I have faith in God and faith in neighbor.

[juantoo3]

Every person is born to either lead or follow. Sometimes we lead, sometimes we follow.

It is possible to be both leader and follower at the same time, hence a person can be a master of their own fate *by choosing* to follow (or not) a Higher Master, and a person can be a captain of their soul *by choosing* to follow (or not) a Higher Officer. I can choose to follow (or not) my G-d and still lead my soul in the direction I choose by the wisdom I understand. I can choose to fully submit to whatever authority presents itself, real or imagined, and follow where the wind blows. Either way, the choice is mine and I have no other to blame. In the end, there is only so much guilt and blame that can be averted by blaming faulty leadership...it was one's choice to follow instead of stepping up and taking command of one's own.

It is impossible to be neither leader nor follower. Even a person incapable of thought is subject to the whims of other persons.