How to start and stay on the path

[RubySera_Martin]

Penguin,

I don't think I have anything new to add to this conversation. Each of us has to find their own path. There are so many forms of Christian expression that one basically has to find their own path. It can be really confusing. I think the Bible has been given so much thought over the past two thousand years that every bit of wisdom and knowledge must have been wrung from it at some time or another. Yet everyone who speaks for or about it uses slightly different words because no two people are exactly alike. Sometimes this is helpful. With that in mind, I will go through your questions and see what I can make of them. It will be up to you to find what is meaningful for you personally.

Originally Posted by Penguin

Hi all,
Many thanks for your replies to my post. I'm having a good and interesting time educating myself on Christianity although it is hard going sometimes. There are a few things I would like clarification on if possible. If I think negative or harmful thoughts about somebody then surely god will know and it will go against me when my time comes.

This is how I was taught to believe. There is a verse somewhere in the New Testament (NT) about us having to give account to God of every word and thought we had. Paul wrote something on the Word of God being a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart. It seems our thoughts are important.

I still don't understand where to find all the prophecies that the bible has correctly predicted.

This depends a great deal on what you consider a fulfilled prophecy and what you consider a prophecy to begin with. On this site people have told me that Jesus was prophecying about something that happened in 1914. I was raised on the Bible and with church every Sunday. I was not taught to see these specific things as prophecy. Apparently some people were.

If you have a Bible with good cross-referencing, you can find the Old Testament (OT) prophecies the NT talks about. Often there is reference to what "was said of old," or what "is written," etc. Those are references to OT prophecies. It remains an open question (in some circles; others don't question) whether or not the OT prophecies were actually meant to be taken as the NT writers took them. I think in the past several decades there has been considerable conversation between mainstream Christian theologians and Jewish rabis concerning some of this. The idea would be that the Jewish rabis are in the best position of anyone alive today to know what was meant by the OT writings.

A thing which really does fuel me is that the bible exists in the first place!

Was this idea planted by the evangelical pastor? I ask because many Christians feel this way. But yes, not many writings of such ancient times survived.

There were prophets before and after jesus and nothing was written about them once they had died so why was jesus different?

Again I would ask: Is this your personal conviction based on reading the Bible? Or is it something the pastor told you? I consider it another of Christianity's selling points. And these selling points, in my opinion, are exploited by evangelicals--somtimes very creatively and effectively--at every turn.

Here's my guess re the situation: It so happened that stuff got written down about Jesus. Or perhaps there was a tradition that got written down. Perhaps Christianity was only one of many new religious movements around at the time. I once asked a Christian prof whether he thinks Jesus existed. He answered, "We know that in the middle of the first century there was a community that believed Jesus existed." What little evidence we have suggests that this is probably an undeniable fact. This is the basis in which I view Christianity.

He was worth writing about and following. Something big happened and he made a massive impact and still does today and this speaks for itself I think. In jesus's time after a prophet had been put to death I can't see the romans & jews saying "oh dear, I think we may have killed the son of god, we made a mistake" or similar words to this depending on what the prophet claimed he was. The condemed would just have been forgotten about very quickly, but jesus wasn't and this to me along with other factors means he was the annointed one maybe.

If we look at the prophets the Bible does tell us about, we see that none of them was accepted by the people at large. Perhaps Moses was, but he also encountered serious opposition from powerful people. Jesus was not the only prophet who was killed. Nor was he the only prophet about whom claims were made that he worked miracles after his death. I think it was Elijah's bones or some other very famous prophet, that supposedly revived dead people. Even the resurrection is not unique to the Jesus story. It may be unique to Jesus in the biblical account, but not in the literature (novels, plays, etc.) of the time. Google for an article by the title "The Passing of Peregrinus" for another example.

According to the NT account, the centurion in charge of the crucifixion did acknowledge that "Surely this was the son of God." I question the truth of this account but the account exists.

It's one of the issues I am struggling with and convincing myself he was the son of god is not easy.

I really like what Taijasi wrote on this: We are all children of God. That Jesus was the literal flesh and bones (biological in the physical sense) son of God is open for debate. Not all Christians accept this as a literal physical fact. Some Christians make this belief a test of faith. Sometimes they will not acknowledge the others as Christians.

Some days I think he was and others I don't after reading various works by top scholars on the gospels, resurrection etc and working things out for myself.

You can probably find "top scholars" for every position ever taken on Christianity. This is why I say you will have to find your own path.

After the resurrection when people saw jesus and reported he was alive again then why didn't the authorities round up the remaining disciples & everybody connected with jesus and put them to death? as in a way they were still carrying on his teachings and supporting him. Surely it would have been dangerous to leave his hardened supporters to roam free and still claim he was the son of god and offend the temples etc. Did the disciples disappear once jesus had died? did the romans realise they had made a mistake and let them be? did they just keep quiet and not believe in what jesus had shown them? Which of these, if any, is correct?

Why did the Jesus movement survive if Jesus was such a dangerous person? Very good questions. I've never thought of things from this perspective. I'm scratching my brain for a guess at what might have been the case. If we go by the NT account, it can be argued that the Romans didn't have a serious problem with Jesus; it was the Jews who wanted him dead. I think this is the reason for the slaughter of Jews by Hitler--everybody hated the Jews because they killed Jesus. My personal opinion on the matter is that it is the height of absurdity to hate the decendents of somebody who killed your religious hero or ancestors but I, too, find myself struggling with this. In my case, it's the Catholics. They persecuted my Anabaptist forebears four hundred years ago. I have consciously worked to eliminate this prejudice but it's very difficult. It becomes part of everyday speech while one is growing up and as a result becomes part of one's own psychological structure or world view.

But, in answer to why the Romans didn't do away with the whole Jesus movement, it makes sense in my mind to think that they didn't see Jesus as terribly dangerous. It also makes sense in my mind to think that the whole thing is a sacred myth by which many people find meaning for life.

If I have accepted I am a sinner, then I am a sinner! It's plain and simple and I will be for the high jump. I can see why in a way a pastor would say "if you don't get baptised then it's hard for you to make progress to god and jesus and you have to give yourself completely" "you will not go to heaven" which was said to me and in a pleasant way I might add. For instance, somebody who has never believed has a barrel of a gun placed to their forehead and will have their head blown off, the first thing that person may do is start to prey and soil their pants. So, although this person has never believed in god/jesus at all, (they could even be an atheist) once the trigger is pulled automatically they get into heaven because they have prayed for 10 seconds prior to death?

That is the way it's supposed to work, according to some Christian thought. Not all Christians put so much emphasis on conversion. Or on the sinner's prayer. In my mind, this kind of thing is the same as magic. You say the formula, supernatural things happen.

I think one would have to demonstrate a belief throughout one's life to qualify and not just for a casual situation when its crops up.

I believe that true Christianity is a way of life, a way of thinking and seeing the world. This is deeper than just saying a certain prayer. I rather doubt that any serious Christians would consider the sinner's prayer so superficially, but sometimes it looks as though they do.

You don't get something for nothing at anything in life and surely you have to give yourself to god and jesus and prove your "worth" so they will be gracious to you at your time of death

This is where the evangelical pastor would probably disagree with you big time. This is the BIG selling point of evangelical Christianity--you have to do absolutely NOTHING. Not one thing you can do in your whole life will earn you even the tiniest bit of credit with God. Doing=law. Acceptance without doing=grace.

I am studying at a Lutheran seminary and sometimes I get the impression that the entire Lutheran church is built on this concept. But I think some parts of evangelical Christianity blow it out of proportion. It appears to me like the Lutherans I know have a more balanced view of the situation. We are responsible for our actions and behaviour. A mature person will produce mature behaviour. As you probably know, "mature" has little to do with one's actual age.

and to enjoy the pleasant state of blackness & peace (we have all experienced it already, the blackness before your first childhood memories, the nothingness) Could this be heaven? This is why I will get baptised if I go "all the way" as I want them to know I have believed fully and maybe I will have peace. Alternatively, I will be sent to hell and reborn on earth again to enter the circle of life here. Who knows!

I think you are mixing Christian and Buddhist thought here. The idea of being physically reborn has been considered a very serious heresy by othodox Christianity for most of its history. There is a verse in the NT to the effect: It is given to humans once to die, and thereafter the judgment. There is no second chance, no second life. Nor did the human exist before physical conception/birth. Belief varies as to the exact moment when human life begins. That is othodox/traditional Christian belief. Hell is believed to be a permanent state. So is heaven.

You say "and maybe I will have peace." I take it you do not feel peace at the moment. Frankly, I found peace when I left organized religion. I personally do not believe that peace can be found outside of oneself. I had to find it inside. I know from personal experience that this can be devasting information when there is nothing inside from which to get peace. Feel free to contact me for more personal discussion, if you so wish.

[Penguin]

Quotes from Taijasi's post.
”And without a doubt, there have been since Jesus' time those who have done just that! There have been great healers, messengers (prophets), and world servers (disciples), unto the present day - many of them being well-known in just this past century. “ True, but none of them were put to death for claiming to be the Messiah or claiming to be gods word etc.

”So the idea that Jesus of Nazareth was totally unique, or an exception to the rule, is not true at all. What is true, is that He represented a state of accomplishment and spiritual development far, far ahead of where the masses of Humanity now stand. But what He Himself accomplished is not unattainable, for Jesus told us that we too, would one day attain and minister, even greater than Jesus Himself!!! “True in a way but if I cultivated myself spiritually to a point it would still be impossible for me, for instance, to spit in a blind mans face and heal him instantly. This “ability” is unique like the other examples of Jesus healing, nobody else has been able to demonstrate this.

”Some people use the word `Saints' to refer to those who have attained, and who have come to a greater measure of Christhood than the masses. In the East, especially in Buddhism and Hinduism, these men and women are called Rishis, Aryas, Lamas, Rimpoches, and so forth. But they are not unique any more than Christ Jesus was, except in that they have accomplished ahead of the rest of us what is destined for ALL. And they have chosen, like Jesus of Nazareth, to remain here on Earth for awhile - to help others to accelerate their spiritual growth, since the planet is going through a crisis right now.” They haven’t and won’t be put to death for what they have or will try to achieve in their lives. Jesus instigated Christianity didn’t he?, the above examples are promoting faith, carrying it on or whatever you want to call it.

”The third reason, however, begins to get at the metaphysics of the matter - and addresses the question of Christ's true Nature, his Spiritual significance, both unto itself, and in relation to the rest of Humanity. And though I've said that He is not unique, save that He reached the goal ahead of us, there IS something about Christ's accomplishment(s) that I think every Christian inwardly recognizes, as well as many people who do not even call themselves Christian, and remain skeptical. Even the most detached & scientific of observers and historians cannot but help become intrigued as s/he studies the life and Teachings of this man, Jesus of Nazareth. And the reason, I suggest, is what He symbolized. ” He symbolized god’s love?

”Even more than just symbolized, I mean what Christ embodied for us - and this goes far beyond the word itself, `Christ' meaning annointed, just as Messias does. Annointed with what??? With OIL, or with WATER, from some kind of Initiation ritual, some ceremony, in accordance with tradition? No, I think that this too, is part of the symbolism, preserved today through the Baptismal rites (a Sacrament, or Consecration) in most churches. Certainly this is about purification, but so what? Even as we ourselves become purified - in thought, emotion (desire), and action - does this make us a Christ?” Am I wrong in thinking that anointed one means the Messiah” or chosen one to spread the word of god. If being Christened or Baptised is unimportant then why was Jesus Baptised in the river Jordan? Why did he feel the need to have it done as he was already pure and came from god in the first place?

”Penguin, I think the advice that folks are giving you here is SOUND. The best thing we can do to ease our relationship with God, and advance ourself LIGHT YEARS upon the Spiritual Path ... is to remember that God is a LOVING GOD, First and Foremost. God is NOT a God of anger or wrath. This is a travesty of everything that Christ taught, and it is a tragedy that such notions have prevailed to the present day. It is not GOD who punishes us, rather, it is each one of us who FORCES the balancing effects of the LAW OF KARMA ... in every instance when we transgress the Laws of Being.” If god is a god of love, then for example, (it’s the only one I have sort of read) why did he take Job’s wife and children away from him to test his faith to god?

”And believe it or not, even if you don't ASK for forgiveness, you have ALREADY received it. Don't EVER let another person tell you otherwise. And don't be so hard on yourself. Forgiving oneself is perhaps the MOST difficult thing you can ever attempt - far, far more difficult even than forgiving your worst enemy. But it is NECESSARY, and because many people simply cannot bear to imagine doing so (I have struggled with this all my life), they externalize the conflict, and IMAGINE a god who is waiting around for us to BEG and seek forgiveness. All the while, it is really YOU. And once we learn how to do this, life will go much smoother. But don't worry - God really isn't the issue here. Forgiveness from God is automatic, but this doesn't mean we are entitled to do whatever we wish, or act without responsibility.” I find this really hard to understand, sorry. So would somebody like Hitler or Stalin be forgiven instantly for the carnage they inflicted on the human race. The cold blooded murder of millions is something god would say “oh well, they will learn one day” and the killingcontinues mercilessly?

”And Penguin, I assure you, Jesus cares not one whit whether this woman was baptized or not, whether was dunked or sprinkled” Again, why did Jesus think it was important to get baptised in the river Jordan?

”Religion is a potentially powerful tool both for Humanity and for God. But it can also be a closed door, both for Humanity and for God. The door, and the key are one and the same - the Human Heart. Whoever and whatever helps us to acknowledge this, and so turn the key, is GOOD. What gets in the way, is simply something to be overcome ... perhaps a bad habit, or an unhelpful acquaintance. So if we find inspiration in the Bible, or in being Baptized - then that is good. FIRST we must recognize the truth in this ... then we can speak of absolutes, or standards. But to deny this simplicity, and rush to argue absolutes, is to ignore the relationship that we already have with God, and with Christ.” Beautiful words indeed.

I thank you for taking the time to respond to my post, and indeed the enlightening response you gave in the post itself was great. It will take me a few repeated reads to digest it fully, I’m a bit slow! However there are many beautiful and inspirational words there. It is very nice reading indeed, thanks again.

[Penguin]

Quote:
A thing which really does fuel me is that the bible exists in the first place!



Quote rubysera martin:- ”Was this idea planted by the evangelical pastor? I ask because many Christians feel this way. But yes, not many writings of such ancient times survived.”
No, this is my own thoughts on the subject. Fragments from the bible going back to AD40 (so it is stated) is just amazing. Out of all the ancient documents that must have been painstakingly hand written it seems the bible has proven to be the most precious in the way it’s been carried down through time. Why?
Quote:
There were prophets before and after jesus and nothing was written about them once they had died so why was jesus different?



Quote rubysera martin:-”Again I would ask: Is this your personal conviction based on reading the Bible? Or is it something the pastor told you? I consider it another of Christianity's selling points. And these selling points, in my opinion, are exploited by evangelicals--somtimes very creatively and effectively--at every turn.”
This is my conviction on what I have read from the bible and about Christianity as a whole. Through the mists of time, as has already been said by Taijasi in a way, there has been numerous prophets and still is today, true. The difference is that none of these has claimed to be the Messiah or word of god and then given themselves to face execution to release us from our sins etc. This is what segregates jesus from past and present prophets, there is no comparison in my opinion.

Quote rubysera martin:-”Here's my guess re the situation: It so happened that stuff got written down about Jesus. Or perhaps there was a tradition that got written down. Perhaps Christianity was only one of many new religious movements around at the time. I once asked a Christian prof whether he thinks Jesus existed. He answered, "We know that in the middle of the first century there was a community that believed Jesus existed." What little evidence we have suggests that this is probably an undeniable fact. This is the basis in which I view Christianity.”
For a tradition to embed itself into a society it has to stem from something. Jesus must have initiated Christianity for it to exist in the first place and grow. Tradition can’t just appear fresh one morning and super seed everything else and just be written down, it has to initiate from somebody or something. I can’t believe that his words and works were written at the time and somebody was running around where ever he went with a feather and papyrus jotting things down.
Quote:
Some days I think he was and others I don't after reading various works by top scholars on the gospels, resurrection etc and working things out for myself.


Quote rubysera martin:-”You can probably find "top scholars" for every position ever taken on Christianity. This is why I say you will have to find your own path.” Wise words indeed!
Quote:
After the resurrection when people saw jesus and reported he was alive again then why didn't the authorities round up the remaining disciples & everybody connected with jesus and put them to death? as in a way they were still carrying on his teachings and supporting him. Surely it would have been dangerous to leave his hardened supporters to roam free and still claim he was the son of god and offend the temples etc. Did the disciples disappear once jesus had died? did the romans realise they had made a mistake and let them be? did they just keep quiet and not believe in what jesus had shown them? Which of these, if any, is correct?


Quote rubysera martin:-”Why did the Jesus movement survive if Jesus was such a dangerous person?” Anybody else got any suggestions for this question?

Quote:
You don't get something for nothing at anything in life and surely you have to give yourself to god and jesus and prove your "worth" so they will be gracious to you at your time of death


Quote rubysera martin:-”I am studying at a Lutheran seminary and sometimes I get the impression that the entire Lutheran church is built on this concept. But I think some parts of evangelical Christianity blow it out of proportion. It appears to me like the Lutherans I know have a more balanced view of the situation. We are responsible for our actions and behaviour. A mature person will produce mature behaviour. As you probably know, "mature" has little to do with one's actual age.” Sorry what is a Lutheran seminary?
Quote:
and to enjoy the pleasant state of blackness & peace (we have all experienced it already, the blackness before your first childhood memories, the nothingness) Could this be heaven? This is why I will get baptised if I go "all the way" as I want them to know I have believed fully and maybe I will have peace. Alternatively, I will be sent to hell and reborn on earth again to enter the circle of life here. Who knows!


Quote rubysera martin:-”I think you are mixing Christian and Buddhist thought here” Why not? Who knows that this wouldn’t be true? We have come into existence from nothing and once we are existing we have to go back to nothing, and that is what scares people about death. The brain is at a level of development that it is ready to experience going back to nothing fully, unlike before, when the brain is just evolving and one can’t remember back before the first child hood memoies.

Quote rubysera martin:-”You say "and maybe I will have peace." I take it you do not feel peace at the moment”. I feel a bit lost spiritually at the moment. Like being in a big sweet shop and you know you need to eat one but can’t make your mind up which sweet to grab. Also I was really meaning peace after death.

Quote rubysera martin:- “Frankly, I found peace when I left organized religion.”Not all are this diverse, don’t judge them all but one bad experience!

Quote rubysera martin:- “I personally do not believe that peace can be found outside of oneself. I had to find it inside. I know from personal experience that this can be devasting information when there is nothing inside from which to get peace.” That is so true!

Thanks for your response to my post.

[taijasi]

Quotes from Taijasi's post.
”And without a doubt, there have been since Jesus' time those who have done just that! There have been great healers, messengers (prophets), and world servers (disciples), unto the present day - many of them being well-known in just this past century. “ True, but none of them were put to death for claiming to be the Messiah or claiming to be gods word etc. Actually, Penguin, history is full of examples of precisely this!

”So the idea that Jesus of Nazareth was totally unique, or an exception to the rule, is not true at all. What is true, is that He represented a state of accomplishment and spiritual development far, far ahead of where the masses of Humanity now stand. But what He Himself accomplished is not unattainable, for Jesus told us that we too, would one day attain and minister, even greater than Jesus Himself!!! “True in a way but if I cultivated myself spiritually to a point it would still be impossible for me, for instance, to spit in a blind mans face and heal him instantly. This “ability” is unique like the other examples of Jesus healing, nobody else has been able to demonstrate this. I disagree with the former. As to the latter, don't be so sure ...

”Some people use the word `Saints' to refer to those who have attained, and who have come to a greater measure of Christhood than the masses. In the East, especially in Buddhism and Hinduism, these men and women are called Rishis, Aryas, Lamas, Rimpoches, and so forth. But they are not unique any more than Christ Jesus was, except in that they have accomplished ahead of the rest of us what is destined for ALL. And they have chosen, like Jesus of Nazareth, to remain here on Earth for awhile - to help others to accelerate their spiritual growth, since the planet is going through a crisis right now.” They haven’t and won’t be put to death for what they have or will try to achieve in their lives. Jesus instigated Christianity didn’t he?, the above examples are promoting faith, carrying it on or whatever you want to call it. Again, certainly Humanity has always crucified its Saviours. Jesus wasn't the first, and he wasn't the last.

”The third reason, however, begins to get at the metaphysics of the matter - and addresses the question of Christ's true Nature, his Spiritual significance, both unto itself, and in relation to the rest of Humanity. ... And the reason, I suggest, is what He symbolized. ” He symbolized god’s love? Bingo!

”Even more than just symbolized, I mean what Christ embodied for us - and this goes far beyond the word itself, `Christ' meaning annointed, just as Messias does. Annointed with what??? With OIL, or with WATER, from some kind of Initiation ritual, some ceremony, in accordance with tradition? No, I think that this too, is part of the symbolism, preserved today through the Baptismal rites (a Sacrament, or Consecration) in most churches. Certainly this is about purification, but so what? Even as we ourselves become purified - in thought, emotion (desire), and action - does this make us a Christ?” Am I wrong in thinking that anointed one means the Messiah” or chosen one to spread the word of god. If being Christened or Baptised is unimportant then why was Jesus Baptised in the river Jordan? Why did he feel the need to have it done as he was already pure and came from god in the first place? The reason it was necessary was to demonstrate that John's Mission was in concert with his own - which fact, sadly, scholars have still failed to grasp!!! Jesus did not need to visit John the Baptizer for his own sake ... he did this, in part, for John's sake!

But more than that, He was emphasizing the importance of Purification, which is what Baptism has always been symbolic of ... certainly among the Essenes, and also in every Mystery Tradition. It marks the 2nd of the 5 (or 6) Great Initiations, the milestones of progress on the Spiritual Path. More can be found here, on the 2nd & 3rd Initiations (Baptism & Transfiguration, respectively).

”Penguin, I think the advice that folks are giving you here is SOUND. The best thing we can do to ease our relationship with God, and advance ourself LIGHT YEARS upon the Spiritual Path ... is to remember that God is a LOVING GOD, First and Foremost. God is NOT a God of anger or wrath. This is a travesty of everything that Christ taught, and it is a tragedy that such notions have prevailed to the present day. It is not GOD who punishes us, rather, it is each one of us who FORCES the balancing effects of the LAW OF KARMA ... in every instance when we transgress the Laws of Being.” If god is a god of love, then for example, (it’s the only one I have sort of read) why did he take Job’s wife and children away from him to test his faith to god? The test of Job's faith, as most Christians refer to it, is not an episode I'm familiar with - at least, not from an esoteric perspective. Others may be able to comment ... but I'd have to research this, and contemplate it. But I will do this ....

”And believe it or not, even if you don't ASK for forgiveness, you have ALREADY received it. ... Forgiveness from God is automatic, but this doesn't mean we are entitled to do whatever we wish, or act without responsibility.” I find this really hard to understand, sorry. So would somebody like Hitler or Stalin be forgiven instantly for the carnage they inflicted on the human race. The cold blooded murder of millions is something god would say “oh well, they will learn one day” and the killingcontinues mercilessly? Why be forgiven? Because God is a Loving God, not the judgmental dotard that he gets made out to be by so many misguided people.

Yes, murder is wrong - whether we kill one or one million. No one escapes the effects of the Law of Karma - action begets action, unfailingly. A Hitler and a Judas must answer for their transgressions. But if you think that ONE MAN was responsible for the horrors of Nazi Germany, or Stalinist Russia, think again. There are evil avatars (incarnations of various evil principles, just as Christ incarnated Perfect, Compassionate Love) ... but it is Human KARMA which facilitates their operation. Technically, Humanity has been spared, and the sure, swift hand of Planetary Karma has been staid several times - most recently, during the Second World War, when God's Plan was damn nearly diverted ... even worse than in Atlantean times (the `Flood'). And of course, Atlantis was a catastrophe, but again - Divine Intervention (for lack of a better term) facilitated our survival.

Part of the difference in our understanding will arise from the fact that - while I do believe in Deity as an Individual Presence (vastly beyond anything we have ever imagined, of course) - I also believe that God looks upon the world with utmost Compassion, but does NOT intervene. This does not mean that God is cold or uncaring. It is precisely because He has INFINITE Mercy and Compassion that He DOES remain impersonal. But Karmic Law does not depend in the slightest upon the being Christians call `God.' Instead, it just IS. It is just "how things work." And that 's a good thing, because it means God doesn't have to keep fiddling with things to make them work out right. Such a notion of Deity, as I see it, is childish and absurd. Not only does it insult our intelligence, it insults God's!

Indeed, God doesn't have to keep tinkering with the world (Universe, etc.) to "get things right" - NOT EVEN to fix Humanity's errors. God's no fool. Things are forseen QUITE a bit better than most people give God credit for. This is not Predistination. It simply means that there are literally billions of possibilities for how things will work out. WE choose how well they do so, how much or how little suffering will be entailed, how quickly or slowly it happens, how many people we must inconvenience along the way to pursue our own selfish happiness ... as well as how soon we will all actually grow up and start ACTING like we actually care for each other, for this planet we live on, etc. As a matter of fact, God has very little to do with it!!!

Not that it has to be that way. I fully expect there to be much more cooperation between Humanity and the Spiritual Kingdoms ... someday. But it takes a bit more growing before most of us are ready for that Baptism which Christ symbolized, or the Transfiguration which enables us to begin to first enter into God's true Presence - and behold Him face to face. Still, we will be there one day, each & all.

”And Penguin, I assure you, Jesus cares not one whit whether this woman was baptized or not, whether was dunked or sprinkled” Again, why did Jesus think it was important to get baptised in the river Jordan? The Birth at Bethlehem marks the 1st Initiation, entrance into the Spiritual Kingdom - in some measure - in our outward, physical consciousness. Before this, we Aspire. LONG years, and usually several lifetimes go by, before we have thoroughly purified our thoughts, words, and deeds - or our entire personality nature (our "lower self"). Jesus showed this in symbol by the thirty years which passed between his Birth and Baptism.

But notice that the 3rd Initiation, or Transfiguration, occurred soon after, as did the Renunciation (or Crucifixion). These are the mark of an Advanced Initiate. And I know , and have known, several. St. Paul, himself, after his conversion, was of the same spiritual standing as Jesus of Nazareth. CHRIST, however, was another being entirely - Jesus' spiritual TEACHER, whom he visited prior to his ministry, in many years of preparation for his Mission. And I would submit that as you see the DOVE descending in the artistic depictions of the Baptism, that is NOT actually the "Holy Spirit." It is CHRIST. THE Christ, Jesus' own Master, and the true Teacher of the Apostles, as well as the HEART of Christianity. Not every Christian is willing to accept that Jesus of Nazareth was a high Initiate, and that the Christ was an Initiate and Teacher of far higher standing. For even the man Jesus remains a Mystery, an enigma. How much greater then, will be the significance and our inability to grasp the importance or nature of the Highest Initiations!

While Jesus of Nazareth passed through 4th Initiation during the Crucifixion (as did St. Paul some years later) ... Christ Himself, the Eldest among Brethren, became a 6th, and immediately also a 7th Degree Initiate. But this was NOT what His Mission was about. MILLIONS of people are 1st degree initiates. This was not so 2000 years ago, but the number was already very large. Forget 144,000 - this is purely symbolic. Today, there are many, many thousands who approach the 2nd & 3rd Initiations - and this is of immense significance, because it means that all the Earth is becoming gradually transformed ... "spiritualized," if you will. Christ came to show the way 2000 years ago, by pointing to the 2nd & 3rd Initiations that lie ahead of us all. And many of the seeds he sowed in Palestine, among the faithful & the attentive, are even now just beginning to be spiritually reaped! ALL who knew Him then are being given the opportunity now to serve. And His Teachers are in every land!

So Christ came to symbolize for us, in His very life, the 5 Initiations, or major mileposts, in our Spiritual life. In time, all people will pass those mileposts. Not for LONG ages will all of Humanity attain - but for even just 10% to enter the spiritual Path means GREAT changes in the condition of life for ALL Beings. And THAT's the kind of thing God cares about - not some small handful of "chosen."

He cares about every single sick or poor human being, every sinner as much as every saint ... truly, the least among us! So why the Baptism? That the Glory of God would be revealed! And so it was ...

I thank you for taking the time to respond to my post, and indeed the enlightening response you gave in the post itself was great. It will take me a few repeated reads to digest it fully, I’m a bit slow! However there are many beautiful and inspirational words there. It is very nice reading indeed, thanks again. Thank you, especially for your patience ... since as you can see, I am not by any means what you call an "ordinary" Christian, or a person of conventional beliefs. Bah - I am hardly `Christian' at all, much of the time, but then, this is up to every individual ... and every day's a new day, a new opportunity.

Love and Light,

taijasi

[Penguin]

Dear Taijasi,

I will look and digest your responses fully. Great replies indeed, deep and meaningful and they will prove to be food for thought for me. It seems you have a small sprinkling of Buddhist theory mixed in?, as you talk about “karma” a lot and human action. I thought that jesus and god were to guide, or try and guide us, keep us from evil etc etc? Can I have some examples of prophets who have been put to death because they claimed they were the anointed one, son of god, messiah or whatever please. Just for my interest that’s all. Many thanks indeed again for your time and effort to produce your responses to my questions. Regards to you.

[Virtual_Cliff]

Gosh Taijasi! That is a pretty unique perspective!

As for Job - he wasn't a historical person. Job is a teaching about how bad things happenn to good people and good things happen to bad people. When bad things happen to us it's not because of some evil we have done is this life or any other. It just happens. I can't reconcile that with karma.

The history of the early church is certainly one of severe persecution and thousands of deaths. Yet for every death more people converted. The same thing goes on today with fanatical terrorists. You can't beat a martyr to gain support for your cause.

Remember John said to Jesus: You should be baptising me.
These symbolic actions have as much meaning as we give them but are nothing in themselves.

Healing still goes on. Many accounts on the evangelical web sites.

Yeah sorry. God loves Hitler and Stalin just as much as he loves you and me. Live with it. Remember Jesus said "Love your enemies"? Also remember the parable of the workers at the vineyard? They all got paid the same even if they only did an hour's work.

Sorry this post is a bit random - only a short lunch break.

Best wishes, VC

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

This is where the evangelical pastor would probably disagree with you big time. This is the BIG selling point of evangelical Christianity--you have to do absolutely NOTHING. Not one thing you can do in your whole life will earn you even the tiniest bit of credit with God. Doing=law. Acceptance without doing=grace.

I think the issue here is that there is a concern that we ought to be giving all the glory to God, and not ourselves, for salvation, since He is the one who sent Jesus Christ to die for the sins of man. And I suppose that is a legitinate concern. If we could save ourselves, what reason would there be for Christ to die on the cross? Hence the emphasis to "accept Jesus as Savior" on that basis. We are saved by faith through grace.

But, so what? What has that really accomplished? Yeah, yeah, we can rest now that we have a home in heaven. But is that all that salvation was intended? Are we "good to go" now that we accepted Christ? I contend not. And I think that is the folly in many evangelical circles is that there is an emphasis in "bringing in the sheaves" but a lack of what to do with them once they have entered the Kingdom of God.

Salvation isn't just about getting to heaven, though that is the hope. Rather salvation ought to be about saving us from ourselves and our destructive tendancies that keep us from loving others with the right motives and attitude. As long as we harbor hate, bitterness, envy, greed, lust, pride, or whatever then it will keep us from loving others purely. Ultimately, salvation is a step toward the goal of being conformed into the image of Christ, whose sinless example is a benchmark for us.

Originally Posted by Penguin

For a tradition to embed itself into a society it has to stem from something. Jesus must have initiated Christianity for it to exist in the first place and grow. Tradition can’t just appear fresh one morning and super seed everything else and just be written down, it has to initiate from somebody or something. I can’t believe that his words and works were written at the time and somebody was running around where ever he went with a feather and papyrus jotting things down.

It is instructive to investigate the common rabbinical practice of oral traditions when speaking of the transmission of truths in Jesus' day. One must remember that written materials for the common people were scarce and also take into consideration that many didn't read at all. So people had to remember what they heard. The rabbinical method was to teach in parables and sayings that would be easier to recall. You can see this referenced by Jesus in Matthew 5, "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time..." and when He refers to proverbs in Luke 4, "Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself;".

Oral tradition keep the teachings alive and intactas they were passed down until they were finally written down.

A good website explaining this is found here:

http://www.ccojubilee.org/resources/.../herman/2.html

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Penguin,

thank you for the post and welcome to CR! enjoy your stay.

please allow me a moment to make a few comments to some of the information you've posted.

Originally Posted by Penguin

The only religion I have been interested in the past is Buddhism but although it still interests me I find it quite Nihilistic.

hmm.. this is a very serious misconception of the Dharma and one which Buddha Shakyamuni specifically warns against. Nihilism is quite far removed from the Buddha Dharma. unfortunately, many beings become ensnared in the words use to convey the ideas, especially if they are not able to read the source language and rely upon transliteraions which are somewhat inaccurate.

i would speculate that what gave rise to this view is our teaching of Sunyata, which is sometimes transliterated as "emptiness" or "void".

I have just started to try and read the Bible again and have almost completed genesis.

that seems like a sensible approach. it is always good to start at the beginning in my view.

One thing about Buddhism for example is that you try to make yourself a better person by meditation etc, you try and purify yourself

hmm.. this is problematic in several respects. we are not trying to make ourselves better persons, recall, we do not hold that persons actually exist in any sort of permenant sense. however, the development of the Paramitas could be seen as something along these lines in the sense that one is actively engaged in positive moral and ethical actions.

I have felt the benefits greatly of Buddhist meditation and it did make me a calmer person when I was doing it, how can my continued reading of the Bible and booklets from my local Evangelical church do the equivalent for me? Is it possible and how?

did you know that the Christian tradition has a long history of meditation? check out these folks:

http://www.wccm.org/splash.asp?pagestyle=default

good luck on your journey

metta,

~v

[RubySera_Martin]

Penguin,

I will try to repond to your questions to me. You ask what a Lutheran seminary is. It's a school operated by the Lutheran church. The topics taught at a seminary normally lead toward ordained ministry or perhaps toward professional theology. I really don't know what other seminaries teach. I just know that seminary is a school run by the church for the church. In this case, it's Lutheran. This one is on the campus of, and affiliated with, a secular university. It's just another department so far as I can see. Students can earn MA and PhD degrees here. I am working on an MA. My goal is academic, possibly professsional theology. I want to understand why people believe what they do. And how this plays out in everyday life.

Okay, we can conclude much just from looking at our world. But like the law or medicine, the more detail you understand and the more areas in which you understand these details, the deeper your insight on the topic--hopefully. What good does that do the world? I don't know. But I know when God puts you somewhere and says "get to work," it might be a good idea to get to work. So anyway, that's my background when it comes to theology--I grew up on the Bible and church every Sunday, plus a few years of formal education.

[quote]

Originally Posted by Penguin

Quote rubysera martin:- ”Was this idea planted by the evangelical pastor? I ask because many Christians feel this way. But yes, not many writings of such ancient times survived.”
No, this is my own thoughts on the subject. Fragments from the bible going back to AD40 (so it is stated) is just amazing. Out of all the ancient documents that must have been painstakingly hand written it seems the bible has proven to be the most precious in the way it’s been carried down through time. Why?

I was wondering how much of this is your own thinking and how much was put into your mind by a good salesman i.e. pastor. That you come to all these ideas and conclusions on your own tells me you're a fairly sophisticated thinker and sincere seeker.

there has been numerous prophets and still is today, true. The difference is that none of these has claimed to be the Messiah or word of god and then given themselves to face execution to release us from our sins etc. This is what segregates jesus from past and present prophets, there is no comparison in my opinion.

Did Jesus claim to be the Messiah? Opinion is divided on this. The early Christians seem to have definitely thought so. The Jews, for the most part then and now, did not.

For a tradition to embed itself into a society it has to stem from something. Jesus must have initiated Christianity for it to exist in the first place and grow. Tradition can’t just appear fresh one morning and super seed everything else and just be written down, it has to initiate from somebody or something. I can’t believe that his words and works were written at the time and somebody was running around where ever he went with a feather and papyrus jotting things down.

Okay now I get a better idea of what you are asking. This is a sociological question rather than theological. I can only guess. And this guess is based on info in the NT itself and on what we know about Greco-Roman society. It is also based on how societies generally work, and how the human mind works. I don't have professional knowledge on any of these topics. Mainly just observation, plus a few courses here or there.

1. I am not convinced that Jesus was terribly original. I was raised to believe that Jesus' teachings were all original new insights that blew away everybody of his day. I felt pretty seriously betrayed when I learned that Socrates and other philosophers had been saying the same things for many centuries before Jesus was supposedly born.

I don't know when Jesus was born, but it is generally believed that he was born a few years before 1AD--anywhere from two to six. Taijasi has a very different view. You may have to ask him for the basis of it because I don't really understand. Numbers and dates befuddle my brain, so for the most part I just accept what others tell me.

2. I visualize Jesus as a teacher or preacher of some sort. He talked where people were assembled and they listened to him. He also had a group of disciples with whom he was very close. They believed he was the promised Messiah. But when the Jews got him killed (I have questions around who actually got this done but generally it is believed the Jewish rabbis were behind it), his disciples did not understand. Traditionally, the Messiah was supposed to set up the Kingdom of Israel and sit on the throne of David. Then somehow or other (on the trip to Emeaus on the evening of the first Easter?) they figured out that the Messiah was not sent to set up a temporal kingdom but a spiritual kingdom. Christianity is the outcome. You may want to read up on the history of Christianity to fill in some of the blanks.

3. One more point. He did his teachings completely within the Jewish religious tradition. He preached in the open air and in synagogues. He based his sermons on the Jewish Scriptures and folk lore. It would also seem natural that some wisdom and folklore from other traditions also filtered into the situation due to interaction with other peoples in commerce and government so that it was not exactly pure Jewish. After his alleged ascension, the disciples organized somewhat (see the book of Acts), and over the following decades and centuries, the Jesus movement took on more and more the shape of a formal church as we know it today. Texts on the history of Christianity take over approximately where the NT leaves off. There is some over-lap.

Quote rubysera martin:-”I think you are mixing Christian and Buddhist thought here” Why not? Who knows that this wouldn’t be true? We have come into existence from nothing and once we are existing we have to go back to nothing, and that is what scares people about death. The brain is at a level of development that it is ready to experience going back to nothing fully, unlike before, when the brain is just evolving and one can’t remember back before the first child hood memoies.

Why not mix Christian and Buddhist thought? Political reasons, if you plan to fit into an evangelical Christian church. It will brand you as a heretic in no time. I think you have some marvelous ideas here, but most of them see me as a heretic or simply not a Christian. I've seen it stated on this forum. Someone said it was their belief that if a person doesn't believe this and that about Jesus, that person is not a Christian. What can be posted on which site is some indication, too, of what is considered Christian and what is considered a mixture or completely other.

My personal opinion is that you can aim for truth at all costs, or Christianity, and that there are cases where the two mix. As I have stated before, this is not an unbiased position. I have had seriously bad experiences in Christianity which play into the situation. I think I am simply presenting objective facts but this can hardly be proven.

Quote rubysera martin:-”You say "and maybe I will have peace." I take it you do not feel peace at the moment”. I feel a bit lost spiritually at the moment. Like being in a big sweet shop and you know you need to eat one but can’t make your mind up which sweet to grab. Also I was really meaning peace after death.

I hear you! I've spent many years simply seeking what ideas exist out there, and then experimenting what fits best with my own spirituality.

Quote rubysera martin:- “Frankly, I found peace when I left organized religion.”Not all are this diverse, don’t judge them all but one bad experience!

I'm not sure what you're saying here but as you probably know by the time you see this, I have explored many other spiritual and religious ideas. This site, with adherents to many different religions, is one more place of exploration. I have tried about half a dozen different Christian churches, too. The "bad experiences" were not limited to one church. It sort of got to the point where I realized I can't become deeply involved with a church if I don't want to get into a fight with somebody or other. I guess I'm an either/or person when it comes to involvement; either I'm deeply involved in something or not at all. The "happy medium" is too bland for me.

Ruby

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

This is where the evangelical pastor would probably disagree with you big time. This is the BIG selling point of evangelical Christianity--you have to do absolutely NOTHING. Not one thing you can do in your whole life will earn you even the tiniest bit of credit with God. Doing=law. Acceptance without doing=grace.

That's perhaps where I would disagree with you. It's a commonly-held view, but not quite the way I think it should be seen.

I don't believe I have to do absolutely nothing. Our spiritual journey is a process of change. We must, therefore, change. The question of whether God accepts us depends on our attitudes and direction in life. We must dedicate ourselves to God. If we don't dedicate ourselves to God, we can't be accepted by God because we aren't aligned with his purposes.

The critical factor, I think is that there are no protocols or rules to follow, no tenets or institutions to which we must align ourselves, no one-size-fits-all model to conform to. That's what you were supposed to say in place of absolutely nothing: no protocols. There is no Divine Constitution separating us from God. It is entirely personal, intimate and sentimental. I think the whole point of Jesus dying was to liberate us from this "Divine Constitution," this ideology and political system that made religion so impersonal so that we could finally connect directly with God. God sent Jesus to be condemned as an innocent man in order to discredit the ideology and political system.

No, we can't be accepted by God by doing absolutely nothing. We must, at least, change the way we think.

What you believe is influenced by your focus in life, what you see, hear and read. Sometimes our experience is insufficient for us to generate our own insights. When our experience is insufficient and we can't come up with our own ideas, we absorb what others tell us because we don't know any better. Life goes on, hours, days, weeks, even years go by. We are held back by our weekly schedule, our need to find a job and because we're so busy we never have the time to generate our own insights except to absorb what others tell us.

But I've seen enough, heard enough and read enough books, to say we can't be accepted by God (as Christians) by doing absolutely nothing. My experience tells me this isn't Christianity. No, that's not the point. The point is, there are no rules or protocols, no tenets or institutions, no ideology, political system or Divine Constitution. We can connect directly with God. That's why the curtain veiling the Holy of Holies tore open. We no longer communicate with God via protocols and institutions. It's no longer a formal, systematic or technical process. It's become sentimental and personal. The political structure has been removed and dismantled.

Some Christians have adequate experience to get beyond what others tell them. That's when you put wings on and learn to fly.

I would agree with the second thing you said, that you can't earn your way into God's Kingdom by means of your worldly achievements. But we must, however, change. Be renewed, refreshed, regenerated, reformed. We must set a direction toward a healthier heart and soul. We must rededicate ourselves to God, not just once, but every day of our lives. No turning back. Ever onward.

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

I would agree with the second thing you said, that you can't earn your way into God's Kingdom by means of your worldly achievements. But we must, however, change. Be renewed, refreshed, regenerated, reformed. We must set a direction toward a healthier heart and soul. We must rededicate ourselves to God, not just once, but every day of our lives. No turning back. Ever onward.

A few people commented on this idea of grace=doing absolutely nothing. It's not a concept I was raised with. I just learned it from my Lutheran teachers and classmates. Thus, it's a relatively new concept for me and I might not have a strong handle on it yet. However, I think my teachers would disagree pretty strongly with your last paragraph here, esp. the part I bolded.

I don't know for sure what he meant, but my one teacher told me that he believes something happens to a person when baptized. Lutherans baptize little children. Thus, this thing that happens to a person happens at a very young age. Perhaps he meant that the thing that happens is exactly the things you mention, but they supposedly happen at a very young age and they are done to the person by God. It is not something the person decides to do, as you suggest.

I am not a Lutheran convert and not a traditional Christian, either. But I know a lot of things various denominations accept as biblical truth. Perhaps I should have added that this is the Lutheran understanding of grace as best I understand it. On the other hand, adding that kind of qualifications to every statement makes posts very hea