How many years ago did the advent of Rama take place?

[sam1008]

Some people say the Ramayana took place about twenty thousand years ago whereas Krishna was born on earth about five thousand years ago. But Krishna belongs to the previous yuga (age) and Rama to the yuga before that and these yugas last for hundreds of thousands of years. So it seems the Ramayana must have taken place alot longer ago.

Also the people in the Ramayana are said to have been around 16 feet tall and there was a monkey like race and also bears who could talk, so it seems this would have to be a lot longer than 20 thousand years ago.

A friend and I asked an older Hindu scholar about this once and he told us to focus on what was important and not to waste time on such things.

If however anyones got any information I'd be interested.

[Agnideva]

Namaste Sam,

What you ask is an interesting question. Traditionally it is held that the purpose of the itihasas (epics – Ramayana and Mahabharata) is to take historical events and write in a fashion such that the four aims of life – dharma, artha (material gain), kama (love), and moksha (liberation) – come through in the story line and the characters’ actions. The focus ought to be on what we can learn and understand from the legends, and not the historical truth behind the story. I suppose this is why the Hindu scholar answered as he did. Nevertheless, like you, I am also interested in the history of the itihasas.

I am aware of two sorts of dating schemes with regards to the Ramayana. One is from traditional belief, and the other is more historical and astronomical.

According to traditional sources, the events of the Ramayana occurred in the Treta yuga, the events of the Mahabharata occurred at the end of the Dvapara yuga, and we are currently in the Kali yuga. Since the Dvapara yuga is 864,000 years long, traditional sources place the Ramayana events ~900,000 years ago, and the Mahabharata events ~5000 years ago.

According to historians and astronomers, however, the Ramayana events fall sometime between 2200-2000 BCE. This is largely based on analysis of astronomical phenomenon recorded in the oldest versions of the Ramayana. According to this scheme, the events of the Mahabharata would be placed circa 1500 BCE.

As for things like monkey-like race and so forth, alternative interpretations also exist. For example, the monkey-like people are referred to in the Ramayana as vanara which is derived from vana (forest) + nara (man/person). So, the term vanara may be a reference to a forest-dwelling tribe, which later became a term used for apes.

Hope that helps.

OM Shanti,
A.

[sam1008]

Namaste Agnideva - thanks for your responce. Reading it reminded me of another doubt - there are characters in the Ramayana that are said to be still alive at the time of the Mahabharata and appear in it, I think the person in particular that I'm thinking of is called Jambhavan; the historian and astronomer explaination fits in with this.

I've never heard the 900 000 years dating before, it is a very long time but is more in keeping with the time scale needed for peoples heights and life spans to have devolved so much. I don't know how this fits in with what scholars think about the evolution of human civilisation though. Although presumably there would have been an ice age inbetween then and now so civilisation would have had to virtually start again anyway.

No doubt to some extent the historical stories have been enhanced by dramatists but am still inclined to regard them as factual evan though this flies in the face of present day scholarly thinking but then on the other hand I admit I don't really know and that I don't really need to.

By the way I've heard that evidence of the bridge built from India to Sri Lanka can be discerned from satellite pictures, have you heard about this?

Om Shanti

[Agnideva]

Namaste Sam,

Thanks for the response.

Originally Posted by sam1008

Reading it reminded me of another doubt - there are characters in the Ramayana that are said to be still alive at the time of the Mahabharata and appear in it, I think the person in particular that I'm thinking of is called Jambhavan; the historian and astronomer explaination fits in with this.

Yes, I think you are right. Jambavan may be in the Mahabharata as well, I’m not certain. I recall something about Jambavan’s daughter being married to Krishna. Also, Hanuman also makes an appearance somewhere in the Mahabharata too, if I am not mistaken. The events of the two epics cannot be so far separated in history, which is why I also like the historian’s explanation.

You may want to check out the Hinduism timeline. It suggests two possible dates for Rama – ca. 4300 BCE and ca. 2040 BCE. The second one I have come across elsewhere too.

I've never heard the 900 000 years dating before

The 900,000 year date is something suggested by some traditionalists, I don’t think any scholars suggested it. It is based on the belief that Ramayana occurred in the treta yuga and the intervening dvapara yuga is 864,000 years long. I must also mention here that there is some controversy about the length of yugas. When ancient texts are referenced the time periods actually listed are much shorter, but the length of yugas you find in most places now take those numbers and multiply them by 360. This is because it is assumed that the length of yugas listed in ancient texts is Deva years, which are 360 times longer than human solar years.

No doubt to some extent the historical stories have been enhanced by dramatists but am still inclined to regard them as factual evan though this flies in the face of present day scholarly thinking but then on the other hand I admit I don't really know and that I don't really need to.

I also believe that there is historical information in the itihasas, however the manner in which history is related is different than how it is done now. Also, the histories were likely orally transmitted for many generations by bards, and so underwent many renditions. Even after they were written down, there have been many recensions, etc. The Ramayana itself has changed quite a bit since Sage Valmiki wrote it.

By the way I've heard that evidence of the bridge built from India to Sri Lanka can be discerned from satellite pictures, have you heard about this?

Yes, I have seen this picture . Recently, the Indian government wanted to dredge in the strait between India and Sri Lanka, so that ships could pass between the two countries instead of sailing around Sri Lanka. Many groups have protested this move because it would lead to the destruction of the land bridge.

Here’s a picture of the bridge:


There’s also a great Wikipedia entry on Rama’s Bridge. The bridge sometimes goes by the name Adam’s Bridge, but Hindus prefer the term Rama’s Bridge .

OM Shanti,
A.

[sam1008]

Namaste Agnideva - thanks for the reply.

What a great picture thanks for posting it, I've not seen that before.

Yes, I think you are right. Jambavan may be in the Mahabharata as well, I’m not certain. I recall something about Jambavan’s daughter being married to Krishna.

I think a stolen jewel ends up in Jambhavan's cave and Krishna fights him for it then Jambhavan realises he's fighting the self same Rama come again and surrenders.

When ancient texts are referenced the time periods actually listed are much shorter...

I've come across shorter lengths of time for the yugas before - in some ways this does make more sense in terms of what can be surmised about the evolution of civilisation, religion and language.

I was going to ask 'What sort of time period is posited by scholars for the sages who first heard the Veda?' but I see from the Hinduism timeline my question is answered - thanks

It seems the facts are indeed a bit different from the traditional version, I think I better give up my traditionalist tendencies and have a rethink. I have faith that there is truth in the traditionalist version and the modern version and that the whole truth must encompass both.

I also believe that there is historical information in the itihasas, however the manner in which history is related is different than how it is done now.

Yes back then, there was less emphasis on facts and more emphasis on Truth.

Also, the histories were likely orally transmitted for many generations by bards, and so underwent many renditions.

A bit like Homers epics although I find them much harder to believe.

Even after they were written down, there have been many recensions, etc. The Ramayana itself has changed quite a bit since Sage Valmiki wrote it.

Yes and I guess there is nothing wrong in that. Like Hinduism itself the scriptures are alive and growing.

Recently, the Indian government wanted to dredge in the strait between India and Sri Lanka, so that ships could pass between the two countries instead of sailing around Sri Lanka. Many groups have protested this move because it would lead to the destruction of the land bridge.

Surley this won't be allowed to happen, talk about a world heritage site, it would be like (if not worse than) moving the Sphinx to make way for a motorway.

The bridge sometimes goes by the name Adam’s Bridge, but Hindus prefer the term Rama’s Bridge .

Those cheeky Europeans, in particular the British, although in there own way I suppose they were acknowledging the greatness of Rama or at least His bridge by calling it Adam's.

I'm off to have a look at that wikipedia entry on Rama bridge now.

Namaste - Sam

[flowperson]

Interesting discussion gentlemen, especially concerning the Rama land bridge. I was totally unaware of this until you both brought it up. There are some European and Asian traditions in Christianity that might support calling the Rama Bridge the Adam bridge, the well-known "cheekiness" of our British brothers and sisters aside.

While the better known stories of Christian tradition that mention the two people named Judas are conflicting (one Judas Iscariot as the betrayer of Jesus, and the other his twin brother Judas Thomas Didymus), there are traditions among the St. Thomas Christians of India's Kerala province which hold that Judas Thomas Didymus (twin-twin in the Greek tradition) was the reincarnation of the Adam, the first created man of the Judeo-Christian traditions. His story is rather murky, but it is there in the Gnostic traditions and those of the St.Thomas Orthodox Church which was believed to have been founded by Judas Thomas Didymus himself in about 65-70 a.d.

The Church is under the Syrian Orthodox Church's administration, but also has rich ties to the Roman Church. Thomas sojurned in Syria on his way East after leaving the Holy Land, and also preached and healed there.

He continued his healing and preaching activities in the South of the Indian continent, mostly on the Western shoreline, but is also supposed to have traveled on his missions as far east as Madras where he was supposedly slain by a mob with spears on the top of a hill outside of the city. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he also traveled to Sri Lanka. It is not surprising to me that the land bridge may have assumed his reincarnated name somewhere along the line due to Thomas' extensive and influential presence in the region.

Here's a link that provides more background on this subject if you wish to explore it. The Gnostic Apostle Thomas

flow....

[Agnideva]

Namaste Flow,

Originally Posted by flowperson

There are some European and Asian traditions in Christianity that might support calling the Rama Bridge the Adam bridge ...

Thanks! This is very interesting information. I was not aware that the term Adam's bridge may have originated in Indian Christianity, or that St. Thomas was considered a reincarnation of Adam. This piqued my interest as there is also a sacred mountain in Sri Lanka called Adam's Peak, known to Buddhists as Sri Pada, and Hindus as Shiva Pada. Turns out the name Adam's Peak may also be connected to the St. Thomas tradition. Moreover, there is also apparently a belief among Sri Lankan Christians that Sri Lanka was the original Garden of Eden. If we put two and two together, the belief might be that Adam and Eve left the Garden of Eden via the Adam's Bridge! In any case, both names entered the English language in the nineteenth century.

Regards,
A.

[flowperson]

Namaste A...Thanks for the comeback and the information on Adam's Peak on Sri Lanka. Lots of mythology out there to untangle, eh ? It's always especially nice and fascinating when knowledge crosses each other in the midst of streams of religious wisdom as ours did.

Peace and Love....Flow....