How do different vultures promote dignity differently?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Francis king

followed u here from ur last post, muslimwoman...

in ur last post u said that u dressed for Allah, not for men, yet...

...if ur husband dissaproves of ur clothing u will not wear it... u say this is because u would not want to offend Allah, but why would it offend Him? Reading between the lines that comment suggests to me that offending the husband is also offending Allah, which worries me...

Sorry everyone I was determined not to post today (people must be bored with me by now) but I just can't let this one slide.

Francis, thankyou, your post is a perfect example of assumption and misconception leading your thought process. Please read what I actually said rather than what you assumed I was going to say:

"Also what men (husbands/fathers/brothers etc) want has nothing to do with it, I dress this way for Allah (G-d) and Him alone. Yes if my husband disapproves of something I want to wear and can explain to me why it is not deemed as an Islamic mode of dress I will not wear it but only because it would displease Allah not because my husband doesnt like it."

If I made a boo-boo and bought a dress that was, let us say, see through with the sun behind, and my husband pointed this out then I would not wear it because it is not appropriate dress for a Muslim woman, as told to us by Allah and the Prophet Mohammad - not as told to me by my husband (just pointed out by him).

If I told a woman the back of her skirt was tucked in her knickers would you think I am telling her how to dress or I am trying to stop her looking like a pillock and embarrassing herself?

Originally Posted by Francis king

yes, I would take a judge seriously if she wore a mini skirt, although I might in the back of my mind view her as a bit of a goer... I would, in fact, respect her more than a woman in a long skirt, purely because she works in a male dominated enviroment and she has not felt compelled to be anything other than she is...

You must have an very open mind. Before my conversion, I used to be an area manager for a large international company. It was a male dominated industry, I was the only female of 36 area managers and I had a 160 (all male) staff. Every management conference I had to deal with sexual inuendo, man trying it on, etc., and when I complained to my director I was told "well what do you expect, we are men so it's bound to happen. You work in a male industry so unfortunately you will have to learn to live with it".

Of course then I used to wear short skirts and had a cleavage I was rather proud of, I liked to look pretty. Now that I wear hijab - guess what - no men ever bother me.

Originally Posted by Francis king

...most other patriarchal institutions say the same thing, incidentally... Islam is no different here than christianity, or Judaism, or Buddhism. We are all told that women should not be sexy unless they are married, that scrubbers are unholy... it appears God loves women, but only if they are subservient wallflowers who don't like sex... seems a cruel trick then to coerce them into marrige, into a union which by definition the good and holy women dont like...

Sorry didn't you tell me in your post from the previous thread that Muslim women have to be good in bed and pretend to be virgins in the town square? Didn't I reply that Muslims are embarrassingly open about sex within marriage? Muslims thoroughly enjoy sex, we just keep it between spouces - rather than running around the town square handing it out to everyone we fancy.

If you look at the thread in comparative studies entitled 'is Christianity a negative religion' my post No 138, you will clearly see my views on the similarities of teachings between the 3 major religions.

Originally Posted by Francis king

In this verse Allah tells us to cover ouselves in order to be recognised as Muslims and therefore not bothered by male attention.

...so, we do do this for men's sake, after all... it please Allah if women are subservient to men! result!

Forgive me if I am wrong but it seems you are not even trying to understand what I am saying and as some Muslims twist the words of the Quran to suit themselves, you appear to be doing the same thing with my words.

Where did I say it pleases Allah to be subservient to men? The Quran says no such thing, the Ahadith say no such thing. Allah tells us that if we dress modestly men will recognise us as Muslim and not give us unwanted attention. This is to protect women not make them subservient to men. Hence why Allah told Muslim men to dress modetly so they don't encourage attention from women. So are men now subservient to women?

Originally Posted by Francis king

u then mention that being modest means that there is no trouble between men, and then....

"If the cousin even imagines certain acts he is commiting adultery and I am behaving in such a way that causes this adultery - hence I am also committing adultery"...

Exactly, because I would not ever dress in a provocative way in front of the cousin there is no trouble between us. So you see, it works.

Originally Posted by Francis king

and yes, that does sound extreme... whats the punishment for adultery? stoning? so, u as a women shall be stoned to death because some man has looked at ur breasts? whats right about that? Ah, I see...

yes, I look at girls and boys on the beach and think.... mmm... he's tasty, she's got lovely boobs, etc, whats wrong with that? That isnt adultery. Adultery is having sex with ppl when u are married that u are not married to. Looking at someone elses bum in a nice pair of shorts is what summers are for...

Your first comment is talking about physical adultery for which there must be 4 reliable male witnesses to be proven. Yes there are punishments set down for this behaviour, if proven in accordance with shari'a law.

You answer your own question in the second comment. How could 4 reliable male witnesses attest to what someone has thought? They can't but of course we accept that nothing in our hearts and minds can be hidden from Allah. It is to Allah that we will answer for any such sin, not mankind.

You are not a Muslim, so for you there is nothing wrong with looking at people on a beach. Why do you think non Muslims are required to follow the Quran? They are not, it is the Word of God sent to guide the Muslim people to the right path. It is my right to believe that as it is your right to go to the beach and look at bums.

Originally Posted by Francis king

u say that "The Quran is not so specific as to womens dress, so we look to the Ahadith (traditions of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh)) and we find...

some guy has said that as soon Asmaa starts her periods she should cover herself up...

so, nothing to do with Allah and the Quran at all, then?

The "some guy" you are referring to is the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) the seal of the Prophets guided directly by Allah. I shall assume that you do not understand the Ahadith and are therefore not trying to insult the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) and just rile me.

The Ahadith are the written down sayings and traditions of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). They were written by the Companions (pbut) and witnesses of the Prophet. They go through a rigorous series of tests to show their authenticity (see Brother Abdullah's thread on authenticating ahadith and the requirements to be a scholar). What you have done I think is read the name of the witness and assumed he said these words to Asmaa.

Originally Posted by Francis king

hope u don't feel I'm stalking u muslimwomen, but had to answer...

Feel free to answer any of my posts, I am here to discuss, learn and insh'allah dispel one or two misconceptions.

Originally Posted by Francis king

down with oppression! fart in elevators! swear like a fishwife! expose ur wanton flesh with pride! watch them weak silly men swoon while u expose ur well toned calves in mini skirts, tempt them with ur rounded shoulders and sweet smelling bodies... dignity is a con! say no to the myth of the virginial whore!

And feel like a complete idiot on Judgement Day Sorry couldn't resist.

[Tao_Equus]

Respectfully,

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Your first comment is talking about physical adultery for which there must be 4 reliable male witnesses to be proven.

So does it state in the Quran that women are unfit to be a witness? Or is this another Hadith?

The Ahadith are the written down sayings and traditions of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). They were written by the Companions (pbut) and witnesses of the Prophet. They go through a rigorous series of tests to show their authenticity (see Brother Abdullah's thread on authenticating ahadith and the requirements to be a scholar). What you have done I think is read the name of the witness and assumed he said these words to Asmaa.

As I understand it very soon after the Prophet Muhamad died the next leader ordered the collection together of all transcripts of Muhamads words. He then edited what became the Quran. He ordered the destruction of all the texts that did not conform to what he declared the official version. This was an exhaustive proccess, in which his troops sought out all that might have any writings and forceably removed and burned them.
This guy was a politician. He had his own agenda. How can we trust what he 'published' as even being the words of Mohamad let alone Allah?
All the subsequent Hadiths are the works of self apponted spiritual leaders. A part of an elite controlling class. You cannot ascribe anything in the Hadiths to either Mohamad or Allah.
This is all historical fact. This is why I have little time for Islam. This is why I see in the Quran nothing but an overtly obvious 'tool' of control by a religeous elite.

I appologise if this offends you but its what I see. If its any consolation I feel the Christian Bible is similarly manipulative.

regards

TE

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

So does it state in the Quran that women are unfit to be a witness? Or is this another Hadith?

As salaam aleykum TE

Unfortunately this is another issue that has been shall we say 'interpreted' by males. The Quran states:

[24.4] And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them, (giving) eighty stripes, and do not admit any evidence from them ever; and these it is that are the transgressors,

24:13 "Why did they not produce four witnesses? Since they provide not witnesses, they verily are liars in the sight of Allah".

As you can see nothing there about the witnesses being male. These verses are to protect women from false accusation.

The male witnesses comes from Ahadith:
The punishment of stoning cannot be enforced without the confession of the person, or four male eyewitnesses who each saw, simultaneously, the private organ of the man inside the vulva of the woman. All of these must be met under the scrutiny of judicial authority. Sahih Bukhari 8:82:815, Sahih Bukhari 8:82:826

We are all aware that life was different then, in all countries and cultures, men ruled the world. So naturally they interpreted witnesses as being male.

A lesser known fact is that in some Islamic areas (such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan, and Pakistan) you can have eight male non-Muslim witnesses, or 16 female non-Muslim witnesses, would also suffice for the conviction of a male Muslim. So female testimony is accepted but at half strength (considering how we women gossip that may not be a bad thing , men are less emotional so tend to state facts rather than give emotion responses).

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

As I understand it very soon after the Prophet Muhamad died the next leader ordered the collection together of all transcripts of Muhamads words. He then edited what became the Quran. He ordered the destruction of all the texts that did not conform to what he declared the official version. This was an exhaustive proccess, in which his troops sought out all that might have any writings and forceably removed and burned them.
This guy was a politician. He had his own agenda. How can we trust what he 'published' as even being the words of Mohamad let alone Allah?
All the subsequent Hadiths are the works of self apponted spiritual leaders. A part of an elite controlling class. You cannot ascribe anything in the Hadiths to either Mohamad or Allah.
This is all historical fact. This is why I have little time for Islam. This is why I see in the Quran nothing but an overtly obvious 'tool' of control by a religeous elite.

Obviously I can't comment on this until you tell me where you get these 'facts' from. The man you refer to is Abu Bakr.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I appologise if this offends you but its what I see. If its any consolation I feel the Christian Bible is similarly manipulative..

I am in no way offended and would love to discuss this subject with you but I need to know where you are getting your facts from before I can respond (you may also be quite surprised by my response).

I will always let you know if you offend me because I feel sure it would not be deliberate and we can all offend without being aware that we are doing it, especially with subjects so dear to our hearts.

Salaam

[Muslimwoman]

TE

Given your last comment you may be interested in an email I got today:

Channel 4 have a programme out later in the year called "Who Wrote the Quran." The most critical and reflective work is being done at Glasgow University.

RSB

This is from Robert Beckford, so should be a good documentary. Obviously a follow up to Who wrote the Bible. I can't wait to see it.

Salaam

[Tao_Equus]

We are seriously hijacking this thread.

Yes Abu Bakr who on Muhammads death and his succession to power immediately launched what I believe is called the War of Apostacy. Apparently there were many in the area at the time who were claimimg 'divine dialogue' with the Almighty. Muhammad had through force and diplomacy, (and, from a cynics viewpoint such as mine, through claim of 'divine sanction'), united the tribes of the area. He was first and foremost a warlord. His death basicly ended that. Leading to this War of Apostacy.

The words of Muhammad had not at that time been collected together as a single volume, being that he only said things oraly, being unable to write. In order to secure his (Abu Bakr) position and have complete control over the legacy of Mohammad he ordered as a part of his war that any and all written refferences to what Muhammad said be collected and given to him. What did not fit with his ideas did not make it in. So who knows what Muhammad really said?

In my view Islam has it's foundations built on political scheming, it was the tool of warlords excersising whatever and all methods they could to seize power in that region at that time. That it ever became such a huge organised religion is a testament to the folly of mans irrationality.

I have discussed this same subject at length previously here at CR but cant recal which thread and have not yet been able to track it down. I did a bit of research on that one and cited my sources there. When I find it I will let you know.

Regards

TE

[Francis king]

no-one is bored of u, muslimwoman, u are one of the most intelligent and forthright ppl to have graced these boards in a long time...

i know u perceive me to make assumptions and be full of misconceptions but.. u buy something to wear, as a good muslim u know whats okay and what isnt, but u will then dismiss ur own opinion and accept ur husbands arguement, to please Allah... u come across as an intelligent women who is confident and has good self esteem, but my discomfort comes from my assumption that, regardless of the fact u are an intelligent and godly woman u would defer to ur husbands arguement... to please Allah...

yet, as u say, it is not the Quran that tells us that a see through dress is not a good thing, but comes from these suposed sayings of the prophet, which, if tao equus is right, were like the new testament bible and the gnostic gospels are today, and so these saying of the prophet would be apochrypa... or pseudographia...

u say in the olden days that u "... used to wear short skirts and had a cleavage I was rather proud of, I liked to look pretty. Now that I wear hijab - guess what - no men ever bother me. "

and so, to me, this suggests that u are quite aware of the power of ur own femininity, and have used it to ur advantage over time, and rather than be a sin, to me, that is part of the empowerment of women... rather than cover ourselves, it is only right that we should use what we have to get by, after all, men have had the upper hand for quite some time, and it is time they got a taste of their own medicine, in my humble opinion...

i have, incidentally, recently purchased a copy of the Quran, and maybe, just maybe, i shall actually read it, so that I can make my mind up as to what it is all about... u see, I hear good things about Islam, as a religion, it seems like, on the surface, a decent religion, and not that different to christianity, but I do not know any real living muslims, so I have only got what I get from the news as my education in Islam.. I recognise this as a deficit, hence my purchase of a quran, but then I am confronted with what I perceive to be the truth of Islam, the partriarchy, the sin, the hate, the veil, the jihad, and I am dissapointed with Islam because of this...

I am not trying to twist ur words to suit myself, but just trying to rouse u to think independently of what I presume to be ur cultural bindings... i know u wouldnt condemn me for that...

okay, u say that "Allah tells us that if we dress modestly men will recognise us as Muslim and not give us unwanted attention"... but to me, I find that alarming. To think that women have to behave a certain way so that men do not touch them up and try to have sex with them, well, to me that is distasteful. Okay, u then counter that by saying that muslim men also have the same proscriptions, but to me, again, it seems wrong...

u are obviously very knowledgable and I am learning new things here, about Islam, for instance, I did not know that four men would need to see copulation with their eyes before stoning could happen, and I certainly did not know that it would take 8 decent muslim women or 16 infidels, by comparision... to me, that just cements my view...

regarding the "some guy thing"... I did not realise u were referring to Mohammed, and would not have been so low as to speak ill of the prophet...

peace be upon him, and of course, u and urs also

cheerio

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Francis king

no-one is bored of u, muslimwoman, u are one of the most intelligent and forthright ppl to have graced these boards in a long time...

As salaam aleykum Francis

What a very charming and nice thing to say, thank you so much.

Originally Posted by Francis king

i know u perceive me to make assumptions and be full of misconceptions but.. u buy something to wear, as a good muslim u know whats okay and what isnt, but u will then dismiss ur own opinion and accept ur husbands arguement, to please Allah... u come across as an intelligent women who is confident and has good self esteem, but my discomfort comes from my assumption that, regardless of the fact u are an intelligent and godly woman u would defer to ur husbands arguement... to please Allah...

Oh no Francis, you misunderstand me, clearly I am not explaining myself properly. Ok, so you understand, insh'allah. Unless my husband is with me, to protect my dignity, I never try clothes on in a shop because there is no guarantee that I cannot be seen in a state of undress (that is just my personal preference, not a requirement). I explain to the shop keeper that I wish to try the clothes at home and as I dress as a Muslimah, so far, the shops have always accepted this request without a problem. When in the shop I hold the clothes up to the light and put my hand behind them, to see if you can see through them. However, on occassion (I think just twice now), when I take the clothes home and try them on my husband points out that my legs can be seen with light behind me. I now have a choice, wear something under the dress (which would be too hot for me) or return the clothes and get something else. I ask my husband because I cannot see myself from far off.

Remember I was not born a Muslim and sometimes I do get it wrong. There was once that I bought a winter jumper and I thought it was lovely. My husband asked me to return it to the shop and I asked why, he explained that there are small flowers knitted into the jumper and my skin could be seen through the holes. When this was pointed out to me I understood and returned the jumper. It was not a question of my husband refusing to let me wear it, I just hadn't realised my skin could be seen.

Originally Posted by Francis king

yet, as u say, it is not the Quran that tells us that a see through dress is not a good thing, but comes from these suposed sayings of the prophet, which, if tao equus is right, were like the new testament bible and the gnostic gospels are today, and so these saying of the prophet would be apochrypa... or pseudographia...

Plus ask yourself what a veill is? The Quran tells believeing women to "draw their veils over their bosoms". A veil is worn on the head and it is this we must draw over our bosoms. So the Quran clearly states how we should dress. You could argue that a veil was normal dress in those days but that is a whole new conversation.

Originally Posted by Francis king

and so, to me, this suggests that u are quite aware of the power of ur own femininity, and have used it to ur advantage over time, and rather than be a sin, to me, that is part of the empowerment of women... rather than cover ourselves, it is only right that we should use what we have to get by, after all, men have had the upper hand for quite some time, and it is time they got a taste of their own medicine, in my humble opinion...

Yes I am fully aware of the power of my femininity and in the past I have certainly used it, very successfully, to get what I want. However I now choose to challenge men and their desire for dominance with my intellect not my boobs. What surprised me is that I now now not only get what I want but I also get much more respect, because by using my femininity to get what I wanted I was reinforcing the male ego 'give the little girly what she wants'. Now when I get what I want it is because I have worked for it, on an even playing field as men.

You talk so strongly of womens liberation, of not wanting to go back to the dark ages but women didn't win the right to vote by propping up their cleavage and adding extra lipstick. When you see a beautiful sexy woman driving a mercedes do you say "wow she must be intelligent and have a great job to have a nice car like that"? No, we all hold the same misconceptions and we think "wonder who she's humping to get that". Yet we dont think that when we see a modest woman driving the same car. Sorry but that is just life. If women truly want to be free they must stop using the power of femininity and start using brain power.

Originally Posted by Francis king

i have, incidentally, recently purchased a copy of the Quran, and maybe, just maybe, i shall actually read it, so that I can make my mind up as to what it is all about... u see, I hear good things about Islam, as a religion, it seems like, on the surface, a decent religion, and not that different to christianity, but I do not know any real living muslims, so I have only got what I get from the news as my education in Islam.. I recognise this as a deficit, hence my purchase of a quran, but then I am confronted with what I perceive to be the truth of Islam, the partriarchy, the sin, the hate, the veil, the jihad, and I am dissapointed with Islam because of this...

Francis I am delighted that you bought the Quran, even if you use it as a tool to argue with me, at least you will have made the effort to learn the truth of what Islam is (which is much more than most do). One of my major arguments against Muslims is that they say awful things about the Bible and the Torah but have never opened a book about either. How can you discuss modern art if you know nothing about the subject or have never seen a painting?!

The other point I would like to make is that I know Muslim women who choose not to wear hijab (unless praying) and I don't consider them sinful or anti Islamic. They hold the belief that life has moved on and they can dress modestly without wearing hijab. Each to their own belief and I am not in a position to judge anybody.

Reading the Quran is the right way to go, even if it is just for knowledge of what Islam is. The beauty of Islam is held within it's pages, not on the internet or by listening to the miriad of interpretations of shari'a. Also not by looking at what Muslims do now. I am afraid I believe, as many Mulsims do now, that the Ummah (all Muslim people) have gone astray in many ways but please do not judge Islam by the acts of ignorant or misguided people.

If you do read it and have questions please let me know, I may not have the knowledge to answer you but I have some knowledge where to look for the answers.

Originally Posted by Francis king

I am not trying to twist

Originally Posted by Francis king

ur words to suit myself, but just trying to rouse u to think independently of what I presume to be ur cultural bindings... i know u wouldnt condemn me for that...

I thoroughly enjoy your challenges. I am more than capable of thinking independantly and I hope always do. As I explained I have no cultural bindings, I am european born and bred, brought up with a completely free mind. I choose how I live, I accept what I believe and reject what I don't - that is why I don't follow a particular Islamic school.

Originally Posted by Francis king

okay, u say that "Allah tells us that if we dress modestly men will recognise us as Muslim and not give us unwanted attention"... but to me, I find that alarming. To think that women have to behave a certain way so that men do not touch them up and try to have sex with them, well, to me that is distasteful. Okay, u then counter that by saying that muslim men also have the same proscriptions, but to me, again, it seems wrong...

You said in one of your posts that we should be able to walk down the street naked, being unmolested and I agree but can you? No, that is just human nature. I will make a deal with you, the day you walk around the streets naked and no-one calls out or stares or has rude thoughts about you, then I will go outside without my hijab.

If G-d had wanted us to be naked wouldn't He have given us a means of protecting ourselves from the elements (as He did with animals).

Originally Posted by Francis king

u are obviously very knowledgable and I am learning new things here, about Islam, for instance, I did not know that four men would need to see copulation with their eyes before stoning could happen, and I certainly did not know that it would take 8 decent muslim women or 16 infidels, by comparision... to me, that just cements my view...

Please don't say I am knowledgable, I only know the tip of the iceberg and I am learning everyday. G-d blessed me with a good logical brain and I just try to use it.

There is nothing in the Quran about stoning, not one verse, not even one that can be misinterpreted to mean stoning, read the Quran you will see. Again it is the Ahadith that refer to stoning and many Muslim scholars are debating the issue of stoning and looking into the ahadith to establish (or not) it’s authenticity – basically looking for a way out.

Stoning used to be used by the ancient Greeks, the Jews and then Islam. Stoning is still used in Saudi, Afghanistan, UAE, Nigeria and Sudan. (a very small percentage of the Muslim population). Even Iran has now placed a moratorium on this practice, although it still remains a possibility on their statute books. Reports still come from Iran that the people will stone to death but this is not done by the state any more, if we can believe what we read but even if we can’t at least their judiciary are officially taking a stand about this.

It is of course cruel and abhorrent and another example of people following something other than the Quran. This point just emphasises what I have said, judge Islam by the Quran rather than the acts of Muslims.

Originally Posted by Francis king

regarding the "some guy thing"... I did not realise u were referring to Mohammed, and would not have been so low as to speak ill of the prophet...

Thank you for saying that, I had assumed you had read the name of the person quoting the hadith and not realised it was the Prophet himself that said this. I do not think the Prophet Mohammad was without sin, he sinned (the Quran says this) but like Jesus (pbuh) I believe he was inspired by G-d and must therefore be respected.

So that you know, if someone quotes a hadith it may not mention the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) specifically. It may give the name of the person quoting the Prophet and may also give the name of the scholar who’s book/collection of ahadith it is taken from. But all ahadith are referring to an act, tradition or saying of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh).

Salaam

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

We are seriously hijacking this thread.

Yes Abu Bakr who on Muhammads death and his succession to power immediately launched what I believe is called the War of Apostacy. Apparently there were many in the area at the time who were claimimg 'divine dialogue' with the Almighty. Muhammad had through force and diplomacy, (and, from a cynics viewpoint such as mine, through claim of 'divine sanction'), united the tribes of the area. He was first and foremost a warlord. His death basicly ended that. Leading to this War of Apostacy.

The words of Muhammad had not at that time been collected together as a single volume, being that he only said things oraly, being unable to write. In order to secure his (Abu Bakr) position and have complete control over the legacy of Mohammad he ordered as a part of his war that any and all written refferences to what Muhammad said be collected and given to him. What did not fit with his ideas did not make it in. So who knows what Muhammad really said?

In my view Islam has it's foundations built on political scheming, it was the tool of warlords excersising whatever and all methods they could to seize power in that region at that time. That it ever became such a huge organised religion is a testament to the folly of mans irrationality.

I have discussed this same subject at length previously here at CR but cant recal which thread and have not yet been able to track it down. I did a bit of research on that one and cited my sources there. When I find it I will let you know.

Regards

TE

Please do let me know when you find it, as you can imagine I might have a thing or two to say about it.

Maybe we should move it to a different thread though, not a lot about dress or dignity in the warlord conversation.

Salaam

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Please do let me know when you find it, as you can imagine I might have a thing or two to say about it.

Maybe we should move it to a different thread though, not a lot about dress or dignity in the warlord conversation.

Salaam

I managed to trace one of my sources down...see link below.


Legacy of Abu Bakr: Compilation of the Qur'an « IBN AL HYDERABADEE


As you can see here what I stated before is plainly a fair interpretation. I.E. that the Quran is not the Word of God revealed to Mohammad by Gabrial. But the assimilated writings of any number of individuals at war and wishing to promote and justify their given positions.

I draw such a conclusion as a sceptic of course. The claim of 'divine dialogue' during fits or seizures was common practice for wannabee spirtualists and soothsayers at that time. So Muhammad, to my thinking, employed the same tomfoolery to validate his claims. He did not write it down though and left his companions or 'political allies' to do so. Given the context that this was incontravertably a time of power struggles and political wrangling I find it disengenious to state that the writings were not subject to political tampering. So I feel just in my assertion that the Quran is not verifiably even the work of Mohammad, let alone Allah.

If you wish to discuss it further though I think it deserves its own thread.

Regards

TE

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I managed to trace one of my sources down...see link below.


Legacy of Abu Bakr: Compilation of the Qur'an « IBN AL HYDERABADEE


As you can see here what I stated before is plainly a fair interpretation. I.E. that the Quran is not the Word of God revealed to Mohammad by Gabrial. But the assimilated writings of any number of individuals at war and wishing to promote and justify their given positions.

I draw such a conclusion as a sceptic of course. The claim of 'divine dialogue' during fits or seizures was common practice for wannabee spirtualists and soothsayers at that time. So Muhammad, to my thinking, employed the same tomfoolery to validate his claims. He did not write it down though and left his companions or 'political allies' to do so. Given the context that this was incontravertably a time of power struggles and political wrangling I find it disengenious to state that the writings were not subject to political tampering. So I feel just in my assertion that the Quran is not verifiably even the work of Mohammad, let alone Allah.

If you wish to discuss it further though I think it deserves its own thread.

Regards

TE

as salaam aleykum TE

Okay give me a new thread, no way can I let that one past me.

Salaam

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

as salaam aleykum TE

Okay give me a new thread, no way can I let that one past me.

Salaam

Ok Authenticity of Religious Books... Same category, Comparative, dont want to start in Islam section as it may offend there.

Regards

TE

[Francis king]

when I have read my quaran I will be back, muslimwoman! thank u for being a good woman and a decent muslim...

peace be upon u

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Francis king

when I have read my quaran I will be back, muslimwoman! thank u for being a good woman and a decent muslim...

peace be upon u

wa aleykum salaam Francis

I am no authority or scholar but if you have any questions and would like my personal thoughts please feel free to PM me. Thank you for your kind words, Insh'allah we all try to be the best person we can and serve Allah as well as we are able.

I know you will enjoy reading the Quran, there is a message for all mankind held inside (as there is in all scriptures).

Best wishes
Salaam