How did the Jews make it this far?

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

I deliberately put this here rather than on the Judaism section because I would like to get everyone's thoughts, but I understand if the moderators want to move it.

This quote is from the "Pulling out of Gaza" thread:

Originally Posted by bananabrain

the "first peoples" are still the jews, unless you can tell me where the canaanites are nowadays, because it beats the hell out of me.

This is actually something Ive wondered about for a long time. What happened to the other peoples who lived in that land before and how did the Jews remain a single people with a common identity for so many thousands of years without a land.

Throughout history, there must have been thousands of little kingdoms which have been destroyed, enslaved or assimilated into the population of other, larger kingdoms. Isnt that how today's countries were made? Yet the only people who have lost their land and continued on as a single, identifiable people are the Jews.

So I am wondering if anyone has any theories on how the Jews managed to achieve this and why no one else did?

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Awaiting!

So I am wondering if anyone has any theories on how the Jews managed to achieve this and why no one else did?

I do have a theory, not a scientific one mind you, but one just the same. The answer is - - - G!d.

The Jews are, afterall, the "chosen" people of the Book.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

So I am wondering if anyone has any theories on how the Jews managed to achieve this and why no one else did?

because God said so & so it shall be...AND God will not be mocked.

[dauer]

I think it's because they changed their theology. All of the little nations around them, even the bigger ones, saw their gods as the gods of their nation, gods who could be conquered by a larger nation. That's exactly how Jews saw it too most likely. But during one of the exiles there was a chance for a shift in belief. Instead of foreign gods defeating their god, or their god becoming a far lesser god of another pantheon, their God was punishing them by booting them from the land. At that turning point, it's pretty hard to wipe us buggers out. Anything that was done to the Jews, it could be seen as God's will, instead of as the acts of foreign deities. While there has been plenty of theological reflection on this conflict since that time, it all happened after the fact and Judaism had already assumed the idea of a world-class Deity instead of a more local manifestation.

Another thing that has kept Judaism alive is the level of ritual in the religion. It served to separate and thus limit assimilation at times (not that separation coming from Judaism was needed during many periods of time) but it also served as a constant reminder of an individual's Jewishness, of their covenantal relationship with God. There is a saying that Shabbat kept the Jews. Every seventh day, regardless the type of horrible stuff going on, a day to cease from most all labors, setting aside the best food, and in doing so to remember the creation of the world which culminated in the sabbath and also to remember the exodus from Egypt. So I do think that the level of ritual played a role in addition to what I spoke of previously.

Another issue may be that Judaism is neither a nation nor a religion, but instead is a little bit of both. Nothing's based on faith. It's all based on parentage or conversion. So I thought I was going somewhere with this one but now I don't see it.

You also might consider Zoroastrianism.

Dauer

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

Originally Posted by dauer

You also might consider Zoroastrianism.

I dont follow, why Zoroastrianism?

[dauer]

Oh, I mean that they've survived too. It's not just Judaism surviving. It would be dishonest to single out Judaism.

Dauer

[bananabrain]

i more or less agree with dauer except on the last post - i think you're being overly shy; i simply can't see that zoroastrianism has had as big of an influence on the world as judaism; after all, both christianity and islam (to say nothing of sikhism) are heavily influenced by ideas we first popularised, whereas zoroastrianism has hardly moved with the times, to the extent that they have real trouble finding other zoroastrians to marry. i'm not dissing the religion, but i just don't think they've produced great religious and political figures the way we have; although by all means correct me if i'm wrong; i would tend to point out the following:

1. jesus
2. maimonides
3. karl marx
4. spinoza
5. sigmund freud

in short, even jews that had nothing to do with judaism or moved away from it entirely were hugely influential. as for why, i actually can't explain it in any other terms other than we seem to have been chosen for something special. perhaps not very nice special, but special nonetheless. anyway, it annoys historians enormously, because we don't obey so-called "laws of history" and that always cheers me up.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[dauer]

BB,

I'm not sure how much that has to do with the question posed. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the question myself, but it seems like it was really about how Judaism has survived for so long, where others haven't. In this case, Zoroastrianism has survived just as long, regardless of whether or not it has had as many influential figures or been as much of an influence.

But I do think, since you brought it up, that one of the reasons for so many influential people is what I call the pearl in the oyster factor. Because of all the stress and tension, the persecution of Judaism over the ages, it has allowed it to produce more pearls. It is nothing I would wish upon my greatest enemy, not that I have one of those guys, but if I did I wouldn't wish it.

There's something learned from permaculture, that the greatest amount of diversity forms at the edges, where two things meet. This is another way of stating the same thing. Judaism has always been on somebody else's edge, for better or for worse. Jesus was on that edge. So was rambam. And Freud. And marx. And spinoza. Even moses was on an edge. And Abraham. And Elijah. And Ezekiel. And the ari. And the besht. They were all brought to life out of an edge.

Dauer

[star light]

Originally Posted by dauer

Oh, I mean that they've survived too. It's not just Judaism surviving. It would be dishonest to single out Judaism.

Dauer

the difference is zerostrianism survived to this day
judaism survived against all the odds

[dauer]

Good point, and welcome to the boards, star light. Yet Zoroastrianism still meets the original criteria of the thread.

Dauer

[I, Brian]

I think the separation of state and deity has to be an important issue, certainly in comparison to other belief systems which have long since perished.

Roman gods were state gods - as the state changed, so the old gods were simply cast away; Greek and Egyptian gods were often a mix of local Gods playing larger nationalistic roles, so political changes at the city and national level could remove them if politically weak.

Even still, it's still very impressive that Judaism has been able to survive as it has for so long, not least the fact of historical persecution.

[Curios Mike]

Just a question.... Aside from theoligical points of veiw.... Whay Are the Jews so hated through out the world? And why does it seem they get the blame for every conflict of man(well a lot of them).

[dauer]

Curious, I don't see that happening in today's world.

[Mason]

Originally Posted by Curios Mike

Why are the Jews so hated through out the world?

I can't think of any religious peoples that are actually 'so hated', I wouldn't even think of muslims that way... And personally i struggle to think why Jews would be hated at all...

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Curios Mike

Just a question.... Aside from theoligical points of veiw.... Whay Are the Jews so hated through out the world? And why does it seem they get the blame for every conflict of man(well a lot of them).

So far as I understand it, it's historically a European issue, and due to money lending.

My understanding is that the early Christian church was against Christians lending at interest, while Jews were prohited at lending at interest to Jews, but not to non-Jews.

So Jewish people were often seen to be tied in with money lending and banking activities - which made them especially an object of hatred where large debts were involved.

Also, because of the position of power and influence that lending and banking had, it made them the subject of general paranoia and conspiracy theories (this is actually still applicable in modern times, especially from angry Muslims when levelled at America).

Hope that helps.