How connected is Tao with Buddhism and Confucianism?

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by kkawohl

Pathless,

The original canon printed by the Taoist emperors of the Sung dynasty 960-1279 A.D., comprised almost 5,000 volumes, but many of these were destroyed by imperial decree during the Mongol dynasty, yes, for supposedly containing dangerous occult secrets. To prevent further destruction of the remaining texts, Taoists hid them from the "eyes of the profane". (secular, not consecrated; agnostic, heretical; unholy, not sacred; those who would desecrate what is sacred)

Namaste,
Kurt

Namaste Kurt,

thank you for the post.

you may find this link to be of some value:

http://www.uga.edu/religion/rk/baseh...des/TMGID.html

[Vapour]

to go back to the original question. Among buddhist scholars of Chinese origin (i.e. China, Korean Japan), what you call, "creeping Taoism" is one way in which authenticity of Chinese translation of sanskrit sutras are discussed. To much of it and sutras could be declared "Apocryphal".

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by kkawohl

Pathless,

The original canon printed by the Taoist emperors of the Sung dynasty 960-1279 A.D., comprised almost 5,000 volumes, but many of these were destroyed by imperial decree during the Mongol dynasty, yes, for supposedly containing dangerous occult secrets. To prevent further destruction of the remaining texts, Taoists hid them from the "eyes of the profane". (secular, not consecrated; agnostic, heretical; unholy, not sacred; those who would desecrate what is sacred)

Namaste,
Kurt

futher,

the texts themselves are usually written with a deliberate symbolism that is not revealed except through oral instruction so that the teachings did not fall into the hands of the profane.

it's taken me a long time to get a handle on the very rudimentary elements of the symbology that is used as a great deal of it is couched in cultural idoms that, for a non-Chinese, are very difficult to grasp.

[Vapour]

I might restart a debate here. This is more about Buddhism than Taoism

One of a Japanese article I read is concerned with Tibetan buddhism in it's relation to Madhyamaka school of buddhism.

The main argument is that from Nikayana to Mahayana to Tantric is a process of hindunisation of buddhism. Now this argument would appear like a polemic against Mahayanan by Theravadan but please bear with me for a while.

And when this paper say hindunisation, this refer not only about a dozen of buddahs, score of boddhisatva and 100 of dieties which are *worshiped* in Mahayana or about belife in (magic) power of chanting of mantra which was supposed to be prohibited. The paper's main concer is the fundamental philosphical precept of Buddhism.

The argument of this paper is that Buddhism made clear break from Hinduism by rejecting the concept of atman. According to Hinduism, basically everyone is a God but most of us cannot realise this potential divinity because of "ignorance". Moreover when one free oneself from this ignorance, one could realise this universal soul/atman as the foundation of metaphysical reality.

Buddhism on the other hand assert that everything will rise and fall and hence nothing is eve permanent. Therefore, there is no such thing as soul or atman. From this view, to pursue bohddisatva's compassion and try to attain the trancendent "nature" of Buddah is to reversal of buddhist path back to hinduism. In fact I see lot of similarity of Mahayanan pureland practice with Hare Krishina, for example. And this Hinduisation of Buddhism will see it's ultimate expression in Tantric Buddhism.

Now, this paper see Nāgārjuna, the founder of Madhyamaka school as someone who attempted to bring back the buddhism to original foundation by development of the concept of emptiness/void. This school indeed become one of the major school of thought in Mahayanan tradition.

The author's article on the other hand, argue that when Nagarjuna's writing has been passed to China and founded three branch of Chinese Madhyamaka schools, they largely failed to grasp the essence of Madhyamaka school because 1) they were not aware of the context of Madhyamaka school, especially about the issue of Hinduism 2) they interpretated Madhyamaka school based on Taoism where blending of cosmo/Tao is considered as the ultimate state of affiar.

The author further argume that this was not the case in Tibet. In Tibet, this concept put forth by Nagarjuna was adopted and further developed by Je Tsongkhapa who set forth "Three Principal Aspects of the Path". In this aspect, to call Tibetan buddhism as Tantric Buddhism is to miss the philosophical development which tibetan buddhism went through after absorption of Tantaric Mahayanan tradition..

Oh, and you can talk about obvious connection of ultimate reality idea of Hinduism, Abrahamic religions and Taoism. Oh, And Madhyamaka school of thought is only one of major buddhist school of thought.

[Abogado del Diablo]

I thinkTaoism is the essential "cosmic mystical experience" laid almost completely bare. Buddhism clothes that experience in some metaphor. Other traditions add a lot more metaphor - often with the metaphor transplanting the experience it points to until it is almost unrecognizable without knowing what one is looking for.

I find a shared description of human experience in Taoism, Buddhism, Christianity and other sources as well. The clarity of Taoism and the poetry of Christian mythology have made for a nice complement to one another for me.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Vapour,

thank you for the post.

i think that it would be better to start a new thread with your previous post as it should generate alot of interesting discussion and it will deserve it's own space to grow.

metta,

~v

[jiii]

This is a very interesting thread, especially since a good deal of reading I've done recently has involved exactly this question. The piece which I will quote from is a book by D.T. Suzuki called "Zen and Japanese Culture". I know it may be boring to read quotes from a book, but Suzuki addressed much of what is being discussed here. The difference? He has extensive footnotes for every bit of it...which should settle much of the idle speculation on this topic.

To begin with, the original question asked, "How connected is Tao with Buddhism and Confucianism?" On this, D.T. Suzuki writes the following:

"Zen united itself to a great extent with Taoist beliefs and practices and with the Confucian teaching of morality, but it did not affect the cultural life of the people so much as it did in Japan."

Bearing in mind that his book was actually written specifically on the subject of Zen, Suzuki goes on later to remark:

"I will not enter into too much detail in regard to the interrelationship of Zen with Confucianism and Taoism in China. Suffice it to state here that Zen is, in fact, the Chinese way of responding to Indian thought as represented by Buddhism and that, this being so, Zen, as it developed in the Tang and later flourished in the Sung, could be nothing else but a reflection of Chinese mentality."

"Zen acquired its practicalness from Confucianism, whereas Confucianism absorbed through the teaching of Zen the Indian habit of abstract speculation and finally succeeded in giving a metaphysical foundation to the teaching of Confucius and his followers."

going on...

"It was thus natural for the Zen monks to become propagators of Confucianism in addition to being Buddhists. Strictly speaking, Zen has no philosophy of its own... Zen Buddhists are sometimes Confucianists, sometimes Taoists, or even Shintoists."

"There are two original currents in Chinese thought, Confucianism and pure Taoism, that is, the Taoism not colored by popular beliefs and superstitions. Confucianism represents the positivism of Chinese mentality, whereas Taoism represents its mystic and speculative trends. When Buddhism was brought to China...(A.D. 64), it found a real associate in the thought of Lao-Tzu and Chuang-Tzu. In the beginning, Buddhism was not much active in Chinese thought; its adherents occupied themselves mostly with translating its texts into Chinese, and the people did not know exactly how to take it into their system of thoughts and beliefs."

Suzuki briefly explains that the Chinese were intrigued by these new ideas, though he adds that "while they could not clearly grasp the idea of sunyata, 'emptiness', they found it somewhat akin to the Lao-Tzuan idea of wu, 'nothingness'."

Frankly, I don't feel like scanning the whole chapter to provide a zillion pages of quotations. I would highly recommend reading the book, instead.

Suzuki, in summary, shows that beginning in general vicinity of the turn to the "A.D." years, Buddhism's introduction to the culture of China from India had a profound effect upon the native systems of thought, which were Taoism and Confucianism. During the many hundreds of years that passed while China was absorbing these new ideas, the line between them sometimes became much more blurry than one might be compelled to think. The introduction of Buddhism into China had an ultimate effect of revitalizing the Chinese systems of thought, which drew from Buddhism many kindred lines of speculation. Many Masters during those days were Taoists that studied Zen, as well. There were many Buddhists that were steeped in Confucian ideology.

What we know today as these three seperate traditions have actually all had a profound impact upon each other, as in their continuing development, they all tended to draw this or that from each other, strengthening and enriching each tradition.

[theocritus]

Yes, they are connected. I believe all religions and philosophies of living (like Taoism) are striving for the same thing, even if they don't know it. Some will always see parallels between them and others will not.

For me Taoism is my path because it is the most correct one for me. Is Taoism the most correct? Yes, just as much as Catholicism is the most correct one. The end goal we are all looking for is ultimately found within. To categorize and define the goal causes it to lose meaning. Categories and definitions are a product of man.

My internal search has brought me to Taoism. Reading the Tao Te Ching and Chuang Tzu was my starting point. After that, the search is within my "self". If I go any further, I must start a new thread.

/theo
as you think, so shall you be

[Snoopy]

When talking of Taoism, I think it’s important to discriminate between philosophical Taoism (Daoism, quietism) and religious Taoism. The philosophy is that of Lao Tzu etc, whereas the religious Taoism (with all the trappings of a religion) is concerned with attempting to elongate life to the point of immortality (amongst other things).

I would suspect that Taoism had little effect on Confucianism; I think from my reading of Taoist books, they are usually critical / dismissive of Confucius.

I don’t think it’s agreed that Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, Lieh Tzu even existed, or not as the individual authors of the works ascribed to them. However, their philosophy can be seen as similar to Buddhism, particularly zen. But here is another problem: is zen the same as Zen Buddhism?

There is a book called The Tao of Zen (by Ray Grigg) that sets out to say that zen is really Taoism in the disguise of Buddhism; remove 2000 years of Buddhist accretion from Zen Buddhism and what lies underneath is Taoism.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

welcome to CR, snoopy, thank you for the post.

you are correct, the Taoist schools were generally dismissive of the Confucian model, especially when Confucianism was made the official religion of the empire and some texts directly comment upon K'ung Fu Tze himself. i have a book which describes a meeting between a Taoist wizard and K'ung Fu Tze and, from the Tao point of view, it was a thorough smashing of the Confucian ideal.

Zen is actually a Japanese transliteration of the Chinese term Ch'an from the school of Ch'an Buddhism. in point of fact, this term is meant to describe the primary mode of practice of this school, namely sitting meditation with an emphasis on Samatha practice.

the Ch'an school of Buddhism arose in China as an amaglam of Taoist and Buddhist thought and, as such, we can find many "catch" phrases which are particular to certain schools of thought. one that is often seen is: "Special transmission outside of Doctrine." which is a common phrase to be found in the Complete Reality schools of Taoism.

it is certainly true that Buddha Dharma influenced the Taoist schools a great deal. it was only after the arrival of the Buddha Dharma that the Taoist schools started to build monestaries and so forth and to make a systematic method of praxis.

to quote a rather famous Chinese Buddhist.. "of course the Chinese mix it together, look at what we have to work with.. Taoism, Buddhism and Confucianism.. it is like your salad bar; we take what we want and leave the rest."

metta,

~v

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Vaj

to quote a rather famous Chinese Buddhist.. "of course the Chinese mix it together, look at what we have to work with.. Taoism, Buddhism and Confucianism.. it is like your salad bar; we take what we want and leave the rest."

With oil and vinegar dressing?
"The Three Vinegar Tasters."

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

the Ch'an school of Buddhism arose in China as an amaglam of Taoist and Buddhist thought and, as such, we can find many "catch" phrases which are particular to certain schools of thought. one that is often seen is: "Special transmission outside of Doctrine." which is a common phrase to be found in the Complete Reality schools of Taoism.

Hi Vajradhara,

Thanks for this. This quote (obviously) resonates with the zen "standard definition" of:

"Not relying on words or letters,
An independent transmission outside the teaching of the scriptures,
Directly pointing to man's Mind,
Awakening of one's own Buddhahood."

Snoopy

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

With oil and vinegar dressing?
"The Three Vinegar Tasters."

Hi SG,

Did this anecdote involve oil???!!! If we're allowed to improvise I think we obviously want some ciabatta as well please!

Snoopy.

(and thanks for the finger pointing to this website's moon)

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Hi SG,

Did this anecdote involve oil???!!! If we're allowed to improvise I think we obviously want some ciabatta as well please!

Snoopy.

(and thanks for the finger pointing to this website's moon)

Oil floating upon water might give off a superficial shine, but is easily skimmed off. {which relates to your statement of:}

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Thanks for this. This quote (obviously) resonates with the zen "standard definition" of:

"Not relying on words or letters,
An independent transmission outside the teaching of the scriptures,
Directly pointing to man's Mind,
Awakening of one's own Buddhahood."

As regards your request for cheese, it has been said that the moon is made of green cheese...

[Snoopy]

ciabatta is bread where I come from, SG!