How confident in your belief in God?

[John Grey]

I am 99% sure that there exists a Divine Source of some type. That remaining 1% of doubt is to remind myself to think for myself. Doubt makes a fine mistress, but a horrible wife.

[Dondi]

Good Lord, almost half of the pollsters are 100% confident! I think maybe I'm with John Grey on that 99%. Now I've felt the love of God, seen prayers answered, read accounts those who've had encounters with angels or NDEs, seen the changes in my own heart and life, pondered the creation of nature, etc. etc. But unless I've seen God in a burning bush or perhaps had an unusual NDE myself, in other words, concrete evidence, I don't think I can say 100%. There has to be a little room for faith, doesn't there?

[InLove]

Originally Posted by Dondi

But unless I've seen God in a burning bush or perhaps had an unusual NDE myself, in other words, concrete evidence, I don't think I can say 100%. There has to be a little room for faith, doesn't there?

Dondi, to me, the evidence of (how did you put it--"some kind of God"?) is concrete simply because there is Life. How one sees that God, whether it be all of us, the universe, a cranky old bearded man, Mother Earth, or what have you is perhaps where faith comes in. In other words, what or Who ultimately Is or gives Life? Just my thoughts....

InPeace,
InLove

[wil]

Originally Posted by Dondi

I don't think I can say 100%. There has to be a little room for faith, doesn't there?

I'm wondering if you phrased this correctly...how do you equate faith with doubt? If you don't have a certainty do you have faith? Faith in what is unseen doesn't mean doubt in what is unseen does it?

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by wil

I'm wondering if you phrased this correctly...how do you equate faith with doubt? If you don't have a certainty do you have faith? Faith in what is unseen doesn't mean doubt in what is unseen does it?

Coming from a Christian construct, of course:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" - Hebrews 11:1

I guess what I'm getting at is that I'm wondering if God makes His face hid so that we go looking for Him, through all our uncertainties. Doubting Thomas needed evidence, which provoke Jesus to reply, "Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20:29). Faith is discovering that the ice is safe to walk on without testing it, though you know in theory that the prolonged cold temperatures and the characteristics of the lake had proven to be reliable in the past. But you won't know until you step out on the ice and see. I am reminded of the father whose son had an evil spirit in him and the father came to Jesus asking for help:

"Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief."

It seems a contradiction, doesn't it. But it's like the father is waiting for confirmation.

[InLove]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Faith is discovering that the ice is safe to walk on without testing it, though you know in theory that the prolonged cold temperatures and the characteristics of the lake had proven to be reliable in the past. But you won't know until you step out on the ice and see.

This is along the lines of what I was trying to say. I mean, I can see that Something makes Life possible. In my experience, the "faith factor" is trusting in the character of of that "Something".

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

I'm always keen to make a fool of myself but I need to understand the question first...(I know I'm going to regret this...)

Hobbes.

"There is a God-shaped vacuum in the heart of every man which cannot be filled by by any created thing, but only by God, the Creator, made known through Jesus." - Blaise Pascal, French mathematician, philosoper, and physicist 1622-1662

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by pattimax

"There is a God-shaped vacuum in the heart of every man which cannot be filled by by any created thing, but only by God, the Creator, made known through Jesus." - Blaise Pascal, French mathematician, philosoper, and physicist 1622-1662

Merci.

s.

[Snoopy]

"Where there is great doubt, there will be great awakening; small doubt, small awakening, no doubt, no awakening."

- Zen proverb.

s.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

"Where there is great doubt, there will be great awakening; small doubt, small awakening, no doubt, no awakening."

- Zen proverb.

s.

I wonder if a companion poll would be necessary here. One that read: How confident are you that you understand That-Which-Is.

[Ciel]

How about...No doubt, no awakening, because already awake.

Doubt as something outside the self, full of comparisons.......

- c -

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by Dondi

I'm really curious to know how some of you are voting 100%. That is what really interests me. How can you be so damned sure?

Because ... you left it open enough for us to interpret the question (and specifically, Who or What `G-d' is) for ourselves.

For me, it makes no difference whether you ask me to explain what I believe God is, or if you make it as general as "an Intelligence or the Ultimate beyond ourselves."

The one, the latter view, tends to focus on God, the Transcendent, and I am 100% confident that such exist(s). Yet because of my comparative religious studies, and my belief that John 1:1-4 is directly equivalent to the Sri Isopanishad ... I also "believe" in - a God Immanent, though I also have 100% confidence in this Presence, just as in God Transcendent (for the two are in reality, One).

Notice the similarity here between the Biblical and the Vedic Teaching:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

AND

om purnam adah purnam idam
purnat purnam udacyate
purnasya purnam adaya
purnam evavasisyate

TRANSLATION

(by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)

The Personality of Godhead is perfect and complete, and because He is completely perfect, all emanations from Him, such as this phenomenal world, are perfectly equipped as complete wholes. Whatever is produced of the complete whole is also complete in itself. Because He is the complete whole, even though so many complete units emanate from Him, He remains the complete balance.

Now, if you're ever seen `Being John Malkovich,' this can indeed get a bit weird - yet even in the most bizarre of ways, that movie does manage (ok, sort of) to illustrate what is being said in these two Scriptures.

~+~+~+~+~+~+~

Let me put this in simpler terms, as this is how I tend to see it:

I cannot look at my hand, or fathom the mind of an ant, or gaze up into the heavens (perhaps at the rings & moons of Saturn, via a telescope), or pet my pet kitty-kat here, without bearing direct witness to God. I don't mean that such things lead me believe that "there is a G-d." I mean that for ANY of these things even just to exist - is a direct testimony ... to G-d's existence.

This goes beyond logic, and beyond `mind' altogether (therefore beyond reason, in the Western sense), as also beyond the testimony of the senses (which can never bring us the same certainty as the principle of consciousness to which I am referring) ... and yes, even beyond faith.

Despite the Zen koan, the kind of `straight knowledge,' or Intuition I am talking about, IS by its very nature, Certain Knowledge, or just, Certainty. It leaves no room for error, or doubt, because at the level of this type of awareness, none is possible! Error only enters in after one has such experiences ... when we try to interpret what we have experienced.

~+~+~+~+~

One way to approach this subject, since it has already gone there anyway, is in terms of what we mean by `God Transcendent.' The picture that many of us have is that of the clock-maker god, having set the wheels in motion, so to speak, then remaining aloof from His Creation - save for some kind of recent intervention via Christ Jesus (or possibly another of various prophets).

But this really says nothing for the direct activity, or interaction, between God and His Creation on a daily basis ...

`G-d' to me suggests, in fact, a plurality of Beings - from quite an exalted state, right down to the myriad, microscopic lesser lives that literally compose every single form in the material world(s) - and I do not picture a sort of Judeo-Christian, Jehovah-God, with the long, flowing white beard, sitting enthroned among the clouds ... yet this does not mean that God is any less "real" to me.

In terms of God Transcendent, what I have found ... is that, although I have 100%, or utmost confidence that "such exist(s)," we can never touch this `Ultimate Being,' or state of Being-ness. The reason for this, is that every time we think we've "gotten there" - or "found Him" - we learn that, in fact, we have indeed opened to a whole new level of awareness ... yet it is far, far from the "ultimate state" (or Being).

Socrates knew this, and that is why, though not even an Initiate into the Mysteries, he was the Sophomore - the "Wise Fool." Knowing how little he really knew, he was able to always humble himself - and open to additional experience. If we cannot - or do not - do this, then I would suggest that we will never know 100% that there is (a) God, much less Know this God.

~+~+~

I do not mean, rattling on about all this, that there is no Summum Bonum, or definite GOAL, for Humanity's existence, our presence, upon Planet Earth. I believe that there is one, both for each of us, individually, as well as for all of Humanity, as ONE - truly as ONE.

But when we consider, for example, the Aaronic Blessing, wherein it is said:

May the Lord bless you, and keep you
May the Lord shine His face upon you, and favor you
May the Lord lift His countenance upon you, and grant you peace

... I think there are several points to appreciate.

One point, clearly enough, is that Aaron (and his brother, Moses) surely must have been referring to One Being, in each of the cases where "the Lord" was used - and that, further, this seems undoubtedly to be the "Lord G-d" of Moses.

Yes, we know (or are told) that Moses beheld the Lord G-d via the burning bush, and I notice, Dondi, that this is just the sort of thing that some of tend to believe would convince us - 100% - that indeed, there is (a) G-d. I suspect that it's not quite this simple, however, and that - in fact - the burning bush (though symbolic) would not "do it" for us, in terms of getting us to 100%.

Anyway, Moses and Aaron certainly seem to be pointing to "a Lord God(s)" Who spoke directly to Moses, yet Whom Moses beheld via this medium, or physical correspondence of - a burning bush.

Now before someone whips out a Bible to demonstrate that oh indeed, Moses "spoke to God face to face," I'd like to point out that what is EMPHASIZED - is that he beheld a burning bush, NOT that "God was a dude, about 50, with salt'n'pepper hair, tan complexion, yadda yadda." WHICH, between ANY kind of physical description of a PERSON, and the `burning bush,' do we have - well preserved - for Moses' suppoesd direct encounter(s) with `the Lord G-d?'

I assure you, there's a great deal that could be said coming from any other religious tradition about this business of encounters with God. The reason that Moses' encounter, then also the Aaronic or Priestly Blessing (used in both Judaism and in Christianity) is so important - and releveant to this thread - is that I think it indicates for us something ... regarding the 100%, and regarding objectivity.

You see, the Blessing says, with the start of each line, `MAY the Lord' do these things. It is, sort of an invitation, even a bit of an Invocation, yet it is also something which I have learned is - ultimately - completely dependent upon what we ourselves do, in preparation. Moses, of course, was doing what needed doing. And he was even instructed, fairly clearly at times (though not always so), in what needed doing next. The result - perhaps - is that maybe (hell, I dunno), just maybe, he was able before he passed over, to literally look into the face of the Lord G-d directly.

Blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall SEE God. But Moses, certainly at first (if not also later), did NOT literally, directly "see" God.

Moses - saw a burning bush.

~+~

As for whether or not we actually need to "see G-d" to know that there is One/Some ... I don't think we do. I think the 100% can be reached - even while we lack, as yet, the complete purity of heart, motive, word & deed ... but I do tend to think we might look at what it means to be "twice-born" - for more insight on where faith, and reason, merge into the kind of awareness (the `straight knowledge,' or direct experience) of the Saint, the Mystic, the Holy Person of every tradition.

Ask Francis king about being twice born. She has used the word "dvijati." This is a teaching in Hindusim, and Buddhism, just as it is in Christianity. Buddhists can be Srotapati, "Stream-Entrants," and Hindus call it Parivrajaka, "the Wanderer."

Could it be that there is an objective reason - why it's easier for some people to vote 100%, or 99%, or 69%? I think so. I would say that there are many, many factors which sway this, increasing or decreasing our certainty. But I also beleive - that the Universe is truly, literally, FAIR and JUST. Nothing is arbitrary, nothing is accidental (in a greater sense). We are NOT, "a fortuitous concurrence of atoms" ... and there is really no such thing, as a Ghost without the machine, or vice versa.

[Sunny C.]

Originally Posted by Ciel

How about...No doubt, no awakening, because already awake.

Doubt as something outside the self, full of comparisons.......

- c -

That sounds nice, but... doubt is an important component of critical thinking. Measure twice, cut once, that's useful doubt in action. I suppose in a non-physical environment, like some supremely enlightened state, there's no use for doubt. But down here on earth we need doubt in almost everything we do. I doubt that this is all there is to God would be a good mantra, I think.

[Sunny C.]

Originally Posted by InLove

This is along the lines of what I was trying to say. I mean, I can see that Something makes Life possible. In my experience, the "faith factor" is trusting in the character of of that "Something".

Yeah, I'll go along with that definition. There is definitely a life force. My faith in that is 100%.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Paladin

I wonder if a companion poll would be necessary here. One that read: How confident are you that you understand That-Which-Is.

Good to see you back around Paladin!

My answer to this would be far less certain, less than 10%.