Homosexuality and Religion

[Marsh]

Originally Posted by Mohsin

In the case of Christianity, the concept of forgiveness is being misused. I do recall somewhere that in the Gospels it is said that a true believer in Jesus Christ(P.B.U.H) will not do sin. This is not the case observed. There are articals even in news papers saying about the acts of homosexuality among the fathers of churches. It is agreed upon that The Qur'an and the Bible holds this act as a sin. So if some Muslims, according to some are involved in homosexuality, they are wrong and they will be held responsible for their acts.

Why are you holding Christians at a different standard than Muslims, Moshin? From what you've said if a Muslim sins, then they are wrong and will be held responsible, although they may pray for forgiveness. But if a Christian sins, they are not allowed to ask for forgiveness, because we are supposed to not do sin (a misconception that I shall address). Are Muslims expected to sin? And if not, why are they allowed to pray for forgiveness?

Your understanding of our Gospel is quite limited. No, it does not say that a true believer in Jesus Christ will not do sin. It does, however, say that a true believer in God-- the God of Abraham-- will show mercy, that they too may receive mercy. What's more, when Jesus was asked if we should forgive those who sin against us even up to 7 times, his reply was not only 7, but seventy times seven.

And if we-- imperfect human beings-- are able to forgive that much, how much more forgiving is God, who is perfect in his ways? Why, then, is it a misuse of forgiveness to expect it from God? Is God not capable of changing the heart of even the lowest sinner? Are our shortcomings greater than his greatness?

And as for all of the reports of sins among church leaders, yes, they happen. Every year we hear about them. We don't, however, hear about the millions of pastors and priests world-wide who selflessly devote their lives to God, sometimes at the risk of personal safety, because such material isn't considered newsworthy. We don't hear much about Muslim clerics, it's true, although I think that is as much of a function of the lack of freedom of speech in the middle east as anything else. We do, however, hear about innocent Americans having their heads sawed off on video by Muslims, so in the spirit of the teachings of Jesus I would like to suggest that you may want to address the beam from your eye and those of your brethren before you go around pointing out the shortcomings of others, Moshin.

[pseudonymous]

some fly-by comments:


one should decide on issues such as this how to label themselves. either you are a christian (by definition a follower of jesus's teachings) - in which case you would have no issues with homosexuals, since jesus never mentions it. or are you a biblican (my definition a follower of the bible's other "teachings"), in which case you likely would find homosexuality a sin. it might explain why so many gays/lesbians/et al find jesus such a loving savior and worthy of following - but they don't tend to frequent the biblican-type churches.

as to the genitalia not matching up...i assure you they match up quite nicely over a passionate evening's dance. as a matter of fact, they match up much better than heterosexual pairings in some cases.

i think any conclusive language regarding homosexuality past present and future is of little value, because like many aspects of the objective/subjective world - science is in its infancy. hypotheses and theories do not = fact.

i hand the remote back to whoever desires it...

dcv-

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,


and after all of this has been said..

i still don't grasp the issue or why it's so hotly contested and debated around the internet forums like it is.

often, it takes the form of "no gay marriage" and things like the "gay agenda" and other claptrap that is emotional rhetoric and has no bearing on the issue.

as i've said before... as a matter of civil law, i'd only recognize civil unions between any couple. a religious organization can deny the marriage rites to whomever it chooses and all citizens will have equal rights before the law.

[Mus Zibii]

Yup. Well, in America the issue of marriage is a debate because the ruling brand of Christians don't accept coupling outside of a Protestant union, and Christian unions can't be gay, so thus all coupling not abiding by that standard is false. Its called convoluted logic.

And there's a belief among conservative Christians that has been retained after the Cold War that homosexuality is a Communist plot against the 'American' family unit.

[neoxenos]

Hello everyone,

This is a long post but maybe some will read it.

one should decide on issues such as this how to label themselves. either you are a christian (by definition a follower of jesus's teachings) - in which case you would have no issues with homosexuals, since jesus never mentions it. or are you a biblican (my definition a follower of the bible's other "teachings"), in which case you likely would find homosexuality a sin. it might explain why so many gays/lesbians/et al find jesus such a loving savior and worthy of following - but they don't tend to frequent the biblican-type churches.

Jesus is quoted in Mark 19 about marriage. Specificly verse 12 is very enlightening about who can marry. Homosexual partnership cannot have anything to do with matrimony of God because the Holy Matrimony is the bond between three aspects (trimony->Trinity). Those aspects are the Polar Opposites and the Reconciliation between them. In the physical, this is Man, Woman, and God (as the Holy Spirit). This is the Holy Matrimony. In my opinion the scriputre, and Jesus, is very clear.

as to the genitalia not matching up...i assure you they match up quite nicely over a passionate evening's dance. as a matter of fact, they match up much better than heterosexual pairings in some cases.

A fork fits well in an electrical outlet too, however that doesn't lead to anything but physical sensorial pheonmena, where as if we plug in a toaster, we'll get proper use of the energy and as a bonus, some toast. It is self evident that man and woman are made for each other. Nature is intellegent in its designs.

An atom needs the three forces in order to exist. That is positive, negative, and neutral. These three forces are present in any mental, emotional or physical relationship. So, mentally and emotionally we can love everyone, because love within these planes are the same regardless of the sex. The physical, however, is obviously different.

Love does not discriminate. We need to love everyone.

Sexual desire discriminates. We need to remove all sexual desire in order to rebalance the scales.

In conclusion, everyone in society is incorrect, not just homosexuals, because everyone has sexual desire. Sexual desire is root of all failure. All relationships based on desire are failures. Anyone who cannot find beauty in both sexes must overcome thier social conditioning and lust. Those who justify thier sexual desire, for either the opposite sex or the same sex, are incorrect. When the desire for sexual sensation (orgasm) is gone, then true love reigns, the realm of God begins to open, and the Perfect Matrimony begins. This Matrimony begins with a Man and Woman and God.

Today, the only difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals today is who they lust after. This is because society is dengerate and has lost the ability to Understand (Binah, Holy Spirit, Sex). However, it is very clear that God is the Father-Son-Mother. It is very clear that no atom can exist without the Three Forces. The Spirit knows this, it is the mind ensnared in desire that justifies lust and claims that it can only love conditionally. This is false because the only love is unconditional love. Because no one considers the sexual act to be divine, we have found nothing wrong with our sexual desire, however, the sexual act is extremely powerful and it is only correct to state that it transforms everyone according to how it is used. So it must be used correctly, because this force creates, it creates Good and Evil, because it is the blind fohatic force, it must be used wisely. The wise use of the creative-sexual energy has nothing to do with desire (craving to repeat sensation) of the flesh, in fact is the misuse that kicked us out of Eden.

This quote explains it in Kabbalahistic terms: (We have to realize in synthesis, Adam=Brain, Eve=Sex. Hence "Eve's" temptation is fornication. Comments are in parentheses.)

When Eve was still with Adam, death did not exist. When she was separated from him (because the Eve-Sexual aspect in humanity ate the Fruit of the Tree of Good and Evil,) death came into being. If he (the Adam Kadmon) enters again (into Eden, where Daath-Sexuality is located) and attains his former self, death will be no more (because Adam-Eve, reunited, will be allowed to eat the Fruit of the Tree of Life).

A bridal chamber (of sexual super dynamics) is not for the animals (because animals fornicate), nor is it for the slaves (of sensorial phenomena, of lust), nor for defiled women (Lilith, degenerate sexual values justified through intellectual sophisms, and Nahemah, abuse of the Sexual-Creative Force, the two whores of the Abyss); but it is for (those) free (of sexual lust,) men (the True Human, the Warrior Arjuna, the Innermost who must fight the animal ego, his own blood) and virgins (Mary, Ram-IO, Kundalini, our Divine Mother who we must venerate and beg for our ego death in the supreme volatile moments of transcendental sexual-electrical movement).

Through the Holy Spirit we are indeed begotten again, but we are begotten through Christ in the two (the Cross of Man and Woman, also the Fire and Water, Solar and Lunar, Yin and Yang, etc.). We are anointed through the Spirit. When we were begotten (by our Father-Mother, Jah-Hava or Jehova in Heaven), we were united (with our Adam-Intellect-Solar and Eve-Sexual-Lunar aspects together in harmony). None can see himself either in water or in a mirror without light (of Atman, the First Begotten Spark of God, the True Human). Nor again can you see in light without mirror or water (of the Holy Spirit, the Ens Seminus). For this reason, it is fitting to baptize in the two, in the light and the water. Now the light is the chrism.

If the woman (the Eve aspect of The Holy Spirit or Binah in every man and woman that represents the life giving force, the sexuality,) had not separated from the man (the Adam aspect of Binah, correct understanding or intelligence,) she should not die with the man (because only the Elohim, the Man-Woman can eat the Fruits of the Tree of Everlasting Life). His separation became the beginning of death. Because of this, Christ came to repair the separation, which was from the beginning, and again unite the two (in a positive aspect as conscious sexuality, Eve, with conscious intelligence, Adam), and to give life (again) to those who died (to their Spirit) as a result of the separation (negative polarization of the mind and sex), and unite them (in Eden, under the Tree of Good and Evil, the place of departure). But the woman (the Divine Sexuality in man and woman) is united to her husband (Divine Intelligence in man and woman) in the bridal chamber (of Sexual Magic because the Alchemical Wedding is the result of transformation of impressions and the transmutation of the libido). Indeed, those who have united in the bridal chamber (of Sexual Magic) will no longer be separated (because Sexual Magic transforms the Man and Woman into the Divine Androgyny). Thus Eve (sexuality, who became a whore) separated from Adam (intelligence, to become subjective egocentric intelligence) because it was not in the bridal chamber (of Sexual Magic, but instead in the Houses of Lilith who ejaculates and fornicates like the beasts, and Nahemah, who uses Sexual Force to commit Crimes Against Nature) that she (degenerate sexuality) united (in fornication to become negatively polarized) with him (as subjective egocentric intelligence).

– The Gospel of Philip

[pseudonymous]

Originally Posted by neoxenos

Hello everyone,

Jesus is quoted in Mark 19 about marriage. In my opinion the scriputre, and Jesus, is very clear.

it is your opinion...and yet, jesus does not mention homosexuality. try as you may, you will not find it uttered from his mythical lips. he may mention marraige, but he does not mention homosexuals.

as to the rest of your post...have you tried masturbation?...it mighten relieve some of that pent-up tension and missplaced attachment to human sexuality. seeing sexuality as anything besides a natural function of the body creates an attachment to it that usually becomes unhealthy. detachment is a natural process, not a judgmental action of expanded Self awareness. in other words, you do not have to become detached because of this reason or that - it happens naturally for those who are experiencing expanded Self awareness. if it is not detaching naturally - then it will resurface just when you thought it was safe...and a person is likely reading about the Self too much, and being the Self too little.

relax a little

[neoxenos]

Originally Posted by pseudonymous

it is your opinion...and yet, jesus does not mention homosexuality. try as you may, you will not find it uttered from his mythical lips. he may mention marraige, but he does not mention homosexuals.

as to the rest of your post...have you tried masturbation?...it mighten relieve some of that pent-up tension and missplaced attachment to human sexuality. seeing sexuality as anything besides a natural function of the body creates an attachment to it that usually becomes unhealthy. detachment is a natural process, not a judgmental action of expanded Self awareness. in other words, you do not have to become detached because of this reason or that - it happens naturally for those who are experiencing expanded Self awareness. if it is not detaching naturally - then it will resurface just when you thought it was safe...and a person is likely reading about the Self too much, and being the Self too little.

relax a little

Yes, of course I have, in the past. Society had always told me it was a good and healthy thing to do. However, this incorrect, especially for the man, and especially for any child prior to puberty. We should investigate the phallic peristaltic movements after masturbation. I'd rather have semen in my body giving me life and vitality than to spill it and replace it with air pumped back in through peristaltic movements (muscle contractions). Society is ignorant.

Instead of masturbation we need transmutation.

Opinions are opinions but the latter section of my post has nothing to do with opinions. I think I have failed in getting my point across, because your response does not respond to any specific thing I said.

Seeing sexuality as something only related to the body is the breaking point of madness. Seeing sexuality as simply hormones and flesh leads to many unhealthy things. Why is it considered normal for an old man to have erectile dysfunction? Why is colon cancer so profound? Why does our physical body age so quickly? Why does the old man and woman become rigid and calcified? Is it just normal for these things to happen? The fact is that these things are due to the misuse of the sexual energies. I know this because I work with these energies everyday in a positive fashion, and I stopped working with them in a negative fashion.

So unless one is actually has personal experience in these things, and wishes to step forward and claim that sexual transmutation is inferior, dangerous or unhealthy, it is nothing more than an opinion to refute it.. this person is speaking from an uninformed and unknowing viewpoint. The fact is that society does not understand transmutation, so the ability to actually refute it does not exist. What happens instead is some statements that seem like a an answer, but in reality ignores the entire subject. Reading the link above is a good beginning to subject if one wishes to begin to understand it.

Detachment of the self can never come about through mechanical existence. Time is a circle and anything gained in that circle is taken away through the same mechanics that gave it. So to believe that we can expand awareness by simply living reactively is false in an eternal aspect because anything gained like that will be lost, because it never belong to you, but rather to Time. Yes, it is your opinion that I am wrong so feel free to keep that opinion, but it is completely out of line of every religion and spiritual doctrine. That is a very good clue to begin with.

Sorry for sounding so uptight, but this topic is nothing to joke about. The fact that society thinks otherwise makes it self evident that it has no idea about these things.

[pseudonymous]

I think I have failed in getting my point across, because your response does not respond to any specific thing I said.

i didn't respond because i only made a statement that jesus never mentions homosexuality. other religious dogma may, but that is of no interest to me unless a person labels themselves christian.

Seeing sexuality as something only related to the body is the breaking point of madness

well then i am maddening, i guess. without the experience of incarnation, do you suppose a Self would be sexual? i stand by my statement, as it is Self-evident to me. no body, or no experience with a body, and no sexuality. simple.

dcv-

[Mus Zibii]

Damn, the grey area is blinding here. LOL

sex = act leading to reproduction

spiritual sex = emotional and physical means of expressing affection

Again, if two lie together, then they have heat: but how can one be warm alone? Ecc 4:11

[pseudonymous]

Originally Posted by Mus Zibii

Damn, the grey area is blinding here. LOL

sex = act leading to reproduction

spiritual sex = emotional and physical means of expressing affection

Again, if two lie together, then they have heat: but how can one be warm alone? Ecc 4:11

math was my worse subject in school. i have to be honest here that i haven't a clue what you are saying...you kind of lost me at sex=act leading to reproduction...have you just explained to me the mystery of all the dust bunnies in my room (my masturbating reproduces them?).

dcv-

[Mus Zibii]

No, your masturbating makes baby Jesus cry. The dust bunnies are a result of sloth.

[Marsh]

Originally Posted by Mus Zibii

Yup. Well, in America the issue of marriage is a debate because the ruling brand of Christians don't accept coupling outside of a Protestant union, and Christian unions can't be gay, so thus all coupling not abiding by that standard is false. Its called convoluted logic.

And there's a belief among conservative Christians that has been retained after the Cold War that homosexuality is a Communist plot against the 'American' family unit.

I'm a conservative Christian, and I don't see any connection whatsoever between communists and homosexuality. There is a lot more on TV that is breaking up families in the West than there is in the bedrooms of homosexual couples.

As for the convoluted logic of American Christianity, I've been following the current debate on the subject of homosexual marriage in America, and I can't say that I see anything that I would consider either incredible or incredibly wrong about what's being said. Remember: America is a nation that was founded on Christian ideals and morals. Indeed, times have changed. However, the document by which America operates is still about 90% the same that it was at America's birth. Ironically, the 'ruling brand of Christians' with whom you have issues right now are actually in heaven

[Mus Zibii]

Well, that's all opinion. First of all, I couldn't disagree more with the idea that America was founded on Christianity. The most religious founding father of America, John Adams, would be branded as a heretic by the zealots who now use his namesake as a masthead. Moreover, establishment doesn't equate moral righteousness. If you want to search the records, America was founded by its native people, and the Europeans who came here were descended from Catholics, and the history of Catholicism goes back to the age of Sergius and Bacchus, Perpetua and Felicity. Again, age and past doesn't make right.

I won't even get started on the concept of heaven. LOL I doubt it has much to do with where one puts one's dick, as much as the proximity of the heart to God.

[I, Brian]

Yes, it would be a good idea to keep this thread on topic, if possible.

[Mus Zibii]

Sorry. I'm always late and all the good points are already used. Heh.

Has anyone said anything about how in Judaism the male 'seed' is considered sacred, and how that might account for the condemnation of male homosexuality, whereas lesbianism is never mentioned--though women who are without children etc are frowned upon in a similar matter?