Homosexuality

[Faithfulservant]

"Surely respect for each other as individuals who are precious is the real necessity?"

Once again.. Its not the person its the sin..

The bible like I said is our source of reference.. We do not listen to the words of men because alot of those words contradict the bible. Sin is everywhere.. that sin is no greater than any other sin.. if you commit one sin you commit them all in the eyes of God. By the grace of God we are given redemption through Jesus Christ. The problem with sexual immorality.. which includes promiscuity and homosexuality is that in todays society its considered normal to do these things...One who is promiscuous can change it with the help of God.. Whereas homosexuals feel that the feelings and desires they have are natural and why should they repent and ask God for help to change it.. Its a rebellion and a clear refusal to accept what God ordained. That is why they are given up to a reprobate mind because once you let one sin go willfully you are letting all sin in to corrupt.

[Blue]

I am so sorry to disagree with you, FaithfulServant, but do you never question your own blind faith in the Bible?
Do you actually understand the Bible is simply a collection and selective collation of some ancient texts written by human beings, who actually contradict each other very often? Most copies don't even include major texts like that of Thomas!

I sometimes wonder, as someone who has spent over forty years reading and re-reading the Bible, the Koran and other great collations from major religions, if people actually ever understand what is written, even if it is only in translation. They always seem to approach them through a miasma of confused affective responses and prejudgements handed-down to them and fail to see what they actually say.

You say you do NOT listen to the words of men, yet here you are referring to the words of men who wrote the Biblical texts, often more for political and social purposes rather than spiritual, and therefore you are contradicting yourself. Is that not inconsistent in the extreme? I am sure it must have occurred to you at various times.

You see, what you say is ordained by God, is just what you prefer and affirm as part of your personal faith. there is no actual evidence that a God has ordained anything beyond your own subjective preferences you have validated for yourself, within yourself... and because you do that, that doesn't somehow make what is said true to anyone else.

I AM NOT criticising that, or you, for believing whatever you wish to believe; all I am asking is why you do not question, within yourself, the nature of those beliefs and what you base them upon.

Declaring something does not automatically mean it is so.

Do you really therefore discount what a Muslim might say, with equal justification, or a Jew, or a Jain, or a Sikh, or any other deeply religious person?
Are you simply going to affirm that they are heathens, ignoramuses, misled individuals who haven't seen 'your' light?
I suggest that is demeaning to them and denigrates their individual faiths and makes you seem rather overly proud of yourself.

You claim the Bible has spoken on such matters as homosexuality and what could be called promiscuity, but does that mean or make it 'true'... just because the Bible says so in your reading and interpretation of it?

Far from seeing 'sin' everywhere, I prefer to concentrate on the many good works of millions of ordinary folk in trying to live their lives peaceably.

Sin is often simply in the eyes of the beholder, and something that is used as a tool by some people to mould others in their image, or to placate a vengeful God... or blatantly as an agent of social and political control. Sin is a manmade concept, not something divine in origin... fostered in some myth like a Garden of Eden scenario.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

You probably dont even know how often Ive censored my response to a few of the members that greatly offended me. I just put it to ignorance and intolerance and If I cant get them to see it from my point of view then they probably wont.

I've suspected this may be the case from yourself, and also a few other members suggest restraint at times. As always, it's much appreciated.

[Blue]

--- and please, in all friendliness, faithfulServant, consider the words of Hoffer:

""A doctrine insulates the devout not only against the realities around them but also against their own selves. The fanatical believer is not conscious of his envy, malice, pettiness and dishonesty. There is a wall of words between his consciousness and his real self"

Hoffer.

[Blue]

It is also useful, I think, to consider these words by the famous writer Milan Kundera.
He once said in an interview:

"The stupidity of people comes from having an answer to everything. The wisdom... comes from having a question for everything."

The easiest way to become a slave is to say I have blind faith that things will get better - or worse!

All I ever ask of people is to question and think for themselves....

The heart (and soul?) is the seat of all spiritual responses and religious belief, and the heart is notorious for misleading us.... as are false logical processes corrupted by invalid premisses.

[Faithfulservant]

Lol you posted this quote on another thread.. Did you think they mean something more to me than just the words of a man who doesnt believe? Im sorry I do not know who Hoffer is..... but I will repost the quotes that I hold with more value.


Psalms 118:8 It is better to trust in the Lord Than to put confidence in man.


Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;

[Kaldayen]

Faithfulservant,

Let's suppose I chose to follow the way that "God" created me and live my life with a man I deeply love (I'm a guy), what will happen of me? Will I go to hell?
___
Kal

[Bandit]

Before this turns into a judgement, which I really don't want to see, I would like to say a few things. First I do not believe it is right to judge anyone ever. I don't feel it is right to ask to be judged either. No one here is God and can do that.

I have talked with my little brother on this quite a few times because he confides in me and he knows I will never reject him or judge him for being homosexual.
I do not believe being that way is a choice, no more than I believe being hetero is a choice. It would be like asking a hetero to change. You cannot do it. I cannot do it. My brother cannot do it. Some people say they can do it, Maybe some can and some can't. But I am not sure, and here is why...

I have seen where some men marry, have kids and by the time the kids turn 10, the whole thing turns out to be a big mess. WHY? Because they tried to do what they felt was right by having a wife and children. All they did was create more hardship and bad feelings for everyone involved because they could not stick with it.
I also know a pastor personally who had the same problems. Wife and kids and leading a respectful church. Only to get busted by police while in a park messing around with boys. So here ya have this huge mess and it goes from the Bishops clear down to the altar boys.
What can you do then?
So we end up with this big mess because society and the church wont take the time to just STOP. And realize these are people, just like ourselves.
I also think it is interesting how the rules change when things like this effect immediate family. Divorce, cheating or whatever. We all make mistakes and no one is perfect, but we can strive for perfection.

Promiscuity is a choice. Entering a relationship with vows is a choice. Cheating on your spouse is a choice that will certainly break a bond of trust.
But I do not think being hetero or homo is a choice. No one can explain it and I am sorry but I don't have an answer, neither do I think anyone does for sure.
Now, everyone here knows what the bible says about it, so I dont see the point in that being said more than once... but no one (no doctors, or scientists or the church) has a clear definition as to WHY it is like this for some from the very start of childhood. THAT is the part that we have to consider.
I do not see it as a criminal act.
I hardly consider it the same thing as murder or being an outlaw.


If everyone REALLY wants to get into this...Start explaining the ones who are born with both male and female organs. It most certainly happens and I did work with someone like this who also confided in me. I found it a blessing and honor that they trusted me enough to talk with me about it. I did not have an answer, other than still loving them. His name was Lee, only to find out that Lee was also born with a Lisa. How are they supposed to change??? Did they choose that???

So please everyone stop and consider each other as people and humans regaurdless of belief, gender, teaching or understanding. Because no one understands some things, except one, and that is God.
Leave it in the hands of the Maker.

[Kaldayen]

Thank you for your post Bandit. I really appreciate your open mind.

You follow your own feelings rather than some "word of God" and it results in a peaceful dialogue rather than a word-fight of intolerance. Isn't that funny?...

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Bandit

I did not have an answer, other than still loving them.
...

Thank you Bandit for an excellent and heartfelt post.

Love each other. So simple. Why do we make it so hard?

peace,
lunamoth

[Bandit]

I am not looking for any glory, but thanks...I just dont want to see anyone getting hurt over this any more.
I do believe the bible is the Word of God, but i do not think this, and other things have been handled right, by society, by the government and especially by the church.
Just try to be tolerant of each other as we speak, because we are all people and Jesus did not go to Calvary to make us an outcast to each other. I dont think I have anything else to add.

[Faithfulservant]

I have never and will never have the authority to say how people will be judged... All I can tell you is that God loves you equally the way He loves me and my sin is equal to anyone elses sin. He is so wonderful in his love that he makes everything ok in His way. Whenyou accept Christ as your savior.. your personal relationship with God that develops is yours and not mine I have my own relationship with him. I love you as a brother for YOU and Im not here to judge anyone. Im here to love you and help you if you are seeking faith. If you arent seeking faith then all I ask is that you allow me to be your friend. I am human just as you are human and we all have our problems in this life that we must deal with.

I do not believe that anyone chooses to be homosexual.. Look at how badly they are treated in this world. They have it harder than most people. Why would they choose that path..

Im sorry if you felt I was being judgemental.. I was trying to convey the very opposite of that. We are to love everyone as God loves us.. without conditions.. without judgements.. With acceptance compassion understanding. We are to love each other as we would want to be loved. Christianity gets a hard knock because there are some that are self righteous and judgemental.. they teach hell and damnation when they should be teaching the love that Christ had for us to die for us so that we could ALL be saved. We are all sinners.. every single one of us.. He died for me and he died for you.. he died for the saved and he died for the unsaved. We are ALL equal in his eyes...and I will say this...that because I know MY sins.. my sins are greater than those who do not know their sins. Its a fact.

Peace Friend.. and Love in Christ.

Faithful Servant

[Faithfulservant]

It was just pointed out to me that the post I just made sounded like I was saying I believe all paths lead to God.. I need to clarify that this is not true.. Jesus Christ is the only path to God.

He is the way the truth and the life.. whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life....john 3:16

That is what the bible says..

[Kaldayen]

Faithfulservant,

I understand your point of view. But still, the facts are that you still believe I'm wrong and sinful to simply love someone. Isn't that what we're supposed to do to be a good christian?
I would be ok with your point of view if it was your own, but I find it sad that you base your opinion on scriptures two millenium old (how sacred may they be)...

Oh well..
___
Kal

[Postmaster]

Homosexuality is something that should not be promoted at all! We live in a place where the very existence of man kind is based on heterosexual Love! Where is pro creation in homosexuality? What good does it do to this earth? I have absolutely no problem with homosexuals, I would never discriminate practising homosexuality only those who promote it and they are not committing sins because they are not hurting anybody! But what I don't like is the way homosexuals are promoting and flaunting it, it does no good to this world. There are countless people to love out there, doesn't it make it anti- re-population if you pick the same sex? However if its because of a genetic fault that means its no fault of your own and nothing you should be discriminated against and you have committed no sin. Homosexuality should be viewed as a medical condition not a sin. The only sin a person makes, is to give up the will to re-populate which is something taught in all religions.