Holy Spirit: feminine form?

[bananabrain]

firstly, we consider the issue of gender to be obstructive to our understanding of the Divine. we can't help imposing our own biases. however, the solution is not necessarily "gender-neutrality". hebrew has no neuter - everything is one or t'other. however, the feminine names for the Divine are not generally known. for example E-L Sh-A-Da-Y (i don't like referring directly to Divine Names) is related to "shadayim", which means "breasts". and "Ha-RaHaMan", the "All-Merciful" is related to "rehem", which means "womb". there are other examples of indirect neutrality such as "Ha-MaQoM" - "the Place". the Shekhinah is more of a specific interface. in my liturgy, which is highly traditional iraqi, G!D is often addressed using the feminine pronoun "LaCh" rather than the masculine "LeCha" - which doesn't happen in the european liturgy. so i think it's a european problem rather than a jewish one.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Hi smkolins, and welcome to CR.

Yes, you're not at all the first to comment on a lack of a Bahai section - but be patient.

Good to hear all around!

Originally Posted by I,Brian

Zoroastrianism gets a listing because it's one of the major "traditional" world religions - although numerically small in the modern world, it is one of the oldest surviving religions on earth, is still followed internationally, and has had significant formative relationships with other major religions - Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, for example.

Please don't mistake me - I respect Zoroastrianism very much. I've spent my hours hunting through dusty corners of dark library lanes hunting elusive English translations. Indeed it is rare to find significant mention of most of the religions you highlight - but increasingly such exhaustive efforts tend to show up the Baha'i Faith even among sites where no Baha'i has participated. I really do recommend the adherents.com site I offered above - it does a good job reviewing the question of major religions from many sides.

And in some ways Baha'is don't make it easy for the rest of the world to notice. If you take the number of Baha'is and average it across the countries in which we have organized communities and compare with other religions only two come close - Christianity (taken as a whole) and Judaism. The Baha'is Faith is more widespread per population that Judaism and only slightly less than Christianity and of course Christianity manages only because of the far superior total numbers. All the other religions are more or less limited geographically. So it's hard to spot the Baha'is sometimes. We don't have thousands of years of presence in every society to be taken seriously and we aren't a majority anywhere.

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

firstly, we consider the issue of gender to be obstructive to our understanding of the Divine. we can't help imposing our own biases. however, the solution is not necessarily "gender-neutrality".

In this we are quite agreed. I don't take the Divine to be absent of attributes but that they "all merge into nothingness" before simply the presence of the Divine, let alone the Divine Itself.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

hebrew has no neuter - everything is one or t'other. however, the feminine names for the Divine are not generally known. for example E-L Sh-A-Da-Y (i don't like referring directly to Divine Names) is related to "shadayim", which means "breasts". and "Ha-RaHaMan", the "All-Merciful" is related to "rehem", which means "womb". there are other examples of indirect neutrality such as "Ha-MaQoM" - "the Place". the Shekhinah is more of a specific interface. in my liturgy, which is highly traditional iraqi, G!D is often addressed using the feminine pronoun "LaCh" rather than the masculine "LeCha" - which doesn't happen in the european liturgy. so i think it's a european problem rather than a jewish one.

Baha'i Scripture often uses the same kind of terminology as I think is common in much religious scripture. The male pronouns are simply references whereas most of the descriptions, as far as they are attempted, ussually use femine attributes or neutral ones (at least in English.)

Only a few ones also highlight the dangerous side of G-d (knod of respect) "Uprooter" or speaking of the "fear of God" vs Compassionate, Merciful, etc.

[barefootgal9]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

in my liturgy, which is highly traditional iraqi, G!D is often addressed using the feminine pronoun "LaCh" rather than the masculine "LeCha" - which doesn't happen in the european liturgy. so i think it's a european problem rather than a jewish one.

bananabrain - I'm confused. (that's ok. confused can be good.)

You are in the UK practicing an Iraqi form of Judaism?

Surely you are a unique creature in the world! :-)

Meanwhile, I have just been reading up on the repressive situation for the Jews in Iran (where Baha'is are also persecuted - sometimes as presumed "agents of Zionism!"). Are you native Iraqi? How did you come to be in the UK? What is the situation for Jews in Iraq today (I imagine pretty awful!) Oh. there I go again - that probably needs its own thread!

Thank you for your comments on the genders in Hebrew texts -- perhaps it is only we of Western Christian upbringing who missed all this (English translations, sadly, lose all these "finer points.")

[barefootgal9]

Originally Posted by gluadys

Genesis 1:1 "and the Spirit moved on the face of the waters"
... The Hebrew verb here is a rare one referring to a very specific type of movement: the fluttering of a bird as it hovers over its nest.

This gives us a whole new image of the Spirit of God. The image of a mother bird hovering over a cosmic egg about to hatch!! It suggests--in contrast to the usual Judaeo-Christian-Muslim image of the creator as maker---the creator as mother birthing the creation. A very feminine image indeed.

I love this imagery. There is a long mystical poem by Baha'u'llah just now in "provisional" (accuracy, authenticity still being checked) stage of translation which I find intriguing.

It is (if I understand correctly) imagery symbolizing the interaction between the human spirit of the Manifestation of God (ie Christ/Prophet) and the Spirit of God/Revelation -- which is portrayed as a "Maid." Tho there is no reference to a Dove in the body of the poem, yet it is entitled "Ode of the Dove" - so I'm not sure if the "Dove" is the "Maid" or "Her Lover." I'll paste just a few lines of it, as I find it beautiful and fascinating, and I think you might enjoy it.

1. I was enthralled by light rays from a face
Whose advent dimmed and darkened every star,
2. As though the sunbeams of Her beauty's glow
appeared and dazzled planets from afar.
3. Her joy diffused the musk of the unseen,
Her stature raised the Spirit up above.
4. The End-Time's Trump resounded when She blew;
Her breath caused shadows of the clouds to move.
5. Her gleam reveals Mount Sinai's deathlessness;
Baha's bright light is kindled when She glows.
6. Then to Her west the sun of splendor dawned,
and to Her east, the moon of moons arose.
7. The mistral's fragrance wafted from Her hair,
and Beauty's eyes were solaced by Her gaze.
8. Her shining face gave Guidance sage advice,
and Moses' soul was cleansed by Her form's blaze.
... (127 stanzas)

The whole text can be found at:

http://bahai-library.com/?file=bahau...dove_cole.html

[bananabrain]

You are in the UK practicing an Iraqi form of Judaism?
Surely you are a unique creature in the world! :-)

well, yes, but this isn't the reason! there is a large community of iraqi jews in london, several hundred strong, most of whom, like my family, came originally from iraq, but moved to bombay in india for about a hundred years. the iraqi community is the oldest diaspora community, as it dates back to the destruction of the first Temple in 586 BCE and the babylonian exile. those iraqi jews that hadn't moved to india by 1948 when israel was established were chucked out in a series of bloody pogroms (known as the "farhoud") and moved to israel. the indian community decided to move to the UK and israel after indian independence, partition and the riots.

there were only about 30 jews left in baghdad before saddam was ousted; he kept them on display to prove that he wasn't anti-semitic, just anti-zionist. the iranian regime does much the same thing, albeit the community is a lot larger because iran was tolerant of the jews until the islamic revolution of 1979.

there is also, in london, a large iranian-jewish community, plus afghans, bukharans, spanish-and-portuguese and moroccans in addition to the majority and more well-known polish, german, russian and other european (askhenazic) communities.

(English translations, sadly, lose all these "finer points.")

which i seem to spend a lot of time explaining!

b'shalom

bananabrain

[amberlaine]

which i seem to spend a lot of time explaining!

Yeah, but you like to hear yourself talk so it all works out.


*grrin*

[I, Brian]

I like to hear him explain it as well. It is a genuine shame that there are not more Jewish people on these forums, and so willing to engage in interfaith discussion.

[barefootgal9]

I definitely agree with Brian on that! I have learned more from reading (intelligent) Jewish threads than most others. Thank God (seriously!) that scholarship has had such an honored place in Judaism. How much we would have lost without it!

bananabrain:
could you expand for us what is meant by "Shekhinah" and "interface"?

"the Shekhinah is more of a specific interface."

Last night I took a look at a Christian feminism website which had found texts to support a feminine aspect of spirit which revealed G!d to the Prophets. And I have found more texts by Baha'u'llah indicating that His "interface" with the Divine was "the Maid of Heaven." Some of the poetic imagery very reminiscent of the Song of Solomon!

(I wonder, if the world were to have a female Revelator -- would Her "interface" be a male figure?)

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by barefootgal9

(I wonder, if the world were to have a female Revelator -- would Her "interface" be a male figure?)

You may find "The Meri" series by Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff interesting for this and other reasons. She is a Baha'i author who encorporated quotes and issues from the Baha'i Faith info a fantasy series with a female Revelator. The first book is called "The Meri" and you ussually find the whole (3 book) series through Amazon as used books for less than it costs to ship. She also has other books,.

[barefootgal9]

Steven, hmmmmm...

I'll have to check that out. Are they good?

Did you know the young folks at Baha'iGear are creating an RPG game of "The Seven Valleys"? (spiritual warriors outfit themselves in virtues...)

getting creative, here, aren't we?!?

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by barefootgal9

Steven, hmmmmm...

I'll have to check that out. Are they good?

I think they are quite good. I bought two sets and share one around.

Originally Posted by barefootgal9

Did you know the young folks at Baha'iGear are creating an RPG game of "The Seven Valleys"? (spiritual warriors outfit themselves in virtues...)

getting creative, here, aren't we?!?

HA! Neat idea! I think _Conference of the Birds_ which is the origin and archetype of the idea of _The Seven Valleys_ is almost like a comic book sometimes.

[mahogan]

The definition of 'the feminine', or of 'female, has changed greatly over the centuries. Some cultures do not understand the concept at all (the introduction of 'In Pursuit of Gender' (Altamira 2002), there is a discussion of the difficulty of defining gender). Perhaps Michel Foucault is most famous for postulating these questions.

My own theory is that, in a culture where literacy was uncommon, where social structures were in flux (disease, famine, war, nomadic lifestyles), the function of a person, that is, the role they fulfilled within their social group, was of more significance than the gender (women warriors, male farmers are not unknown). I think we need to draw on a great deal of sociological data for this area and even some biological/ genetic, as the West finally realises that there are not just 2 genders but a whole range in between.

Regards

Martin Hogan

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by mahogan

The definition of 'the feminine', or of 'female, has changed greatly over the centuries. Some cultures do not understand the concept at all (the introduction of 'In Pursuit of Gender' (Altamira 2002), there is a discussion of the difficulty of defining gender). Perhaps Michel Foucault is most famous for postulating these questions.

My own theory is that, in a culture where literacy was uncommon, where social structures were in flux (disease, famine, war, nomadic lifestyles), the function of a person, that is, the role they fulfilled within their social group, was of more significance than the gender (women warriors, male farmers are not unknown). I think we need to draw on a great deal of sociological data for this area and even some biological/ genetic, as the West finally realises that there are not just 2 genders but a whole range in between.

While not wishing to dismiss scientific input to the question of the current and future trends in the balance of the sexes I would not give up on religious sources for consideration. "The emancipation of women, the achievement of full equality between the sexes, is one of the most important, though less acknowledged prerequisites of peace. The denial of such equality perpetrates an injustice against one half of the world's population and promotes in men harmful attitudes and habits that are carried from the family to the workplace, to political life, and ultimately to international relations. There are no grounds, moral, practical, or biological, upon which such denial can be justified. Only as women are welcomed into full partnership in all fields of human endeavor will the moral and psychological climate be created in which international peace can emerge. See also In all the Ways that Matter, Women Don't Count

"The world in the past has been ruled by force, and man has dominated over woman by reason of his more forceful and aggressive qualities both of body and mind. But the balance is already shifting; force is losing its dominance, and mental alertness, intuition, and the spiritual qualities of love and service, in which woman is strong, are gaining ascendancy. Hence the new age will be an age less masculine and more permeated with the feminine ideals, or, to speak more exactly, will be an age in which the masculine and feminine elements of civilization will be more evenly balanced."

[StrangeQuark]

Originally Posted by barefootgal9

(I wonder, if the world were to have a female Revelator -- would Her "interface" be a male figure?)

Interesting that you should mention that! This may be only loosely related to the thread, but it has something to do the "female Revelator" idea.

I apologize if this is a terrible derailing of the thread. (Admin, feel free to move it if you wish).

(I forget the proper WARNING, but . . .) I'm about to reveal part someone's story . . .

It's fiction, I know, but Mercedes Lackey has such diversity of culture and religion in her Valdemar series that I can't help mentioning it. In *The Mage Storms* there is a character from the land of Karse known as "the Son of the Sun."

The Karse religion, in all the stories preceeding *Mage Storms* had a very fundamentalist flavor to it, very much like some Christian or Islamic traditions. The priests and their ruler/prophet, the Son of the Sun, hated the Heralds of Valdemar and their spirit Companions (which looked like horses), and were relentlessly starting wars. Before *Mage Storms* there had never been a woman Son of the Son. Ironically, somehow a woman rose to that position in this story and still called herself *Son* of the Sun.

She was also the only one to accept peaceful relations with Valdemar!

(Now that I think of it, from now on I will try to look for ways to start a new thread before I do something like this).