History of the Swastika

[suanni]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I tried for ages to chase up a book I was under the impression would be rather authoritive on the whole topic of occult influence on the Nazi's - "Satan and the Swastika" by Francis X. King. I asked Father Christmas for it for 3 years running when I was a kid - but for some reason, never woke up to it on Christmas morning. Doesn't every parent dream of buying their child such a book title?

LOL Brian. I asked for some very strange things from Father Christmas and never got them either.
Seriously I typed in "Satan and the Swastika" in my search engine and it came up with some very interesting results. One of the threads I will post here.
http://www.mystae.com/restricted/str...sons/nazi.html
One piece from it, a prediction from someone else is frighteningly true.

Frank Smyth in The Occult Connection

"Hitler is one of our pupils...you will one day experience that he, and through him we, will one day be victorious and develop a movement that will make the world tremble." - Von Liebenfels writing to a colleague (1932)

I wonder if Frank Smyth had ever known the full extent of making the world tremble what he would have done.

It is also frightening to think that he believed in what he was doing because he believed that he had a vision from God. Many people claim to have had visions or messages from God, who also wish to act on that "message/vision". I suppose it depends upon the psychological make up of the person concerned on how they go about it.
I would hate to think the world would ever know another Hitler but I think we have a number of times...Hussein comes to mind instantly and Bin Laden. Bin Laden especially because from what I understand he believes that what he is doing he is doing in the name of God.

[louis]

I tried for ages to chase up a book I was under the impression would be rather authoritive on the whole topic of occult influence on the Nazi's - "Satan and the Swastika" by Francis X. King.

From Louis...
It's a common practise with Satan worshipers to reverse
positive mystical symbols. If you ever see anyone wearing
a crucifix UPSIDE DOWN, now you know why. Same goes
for a five-point star with two points up, one point down.
The positive version of the swastika ( arms bent counter-
clockwise ) is common in American Native decorations.
For them, it's a "good luck" symbol.

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

From Louis...
It's a common practise with Satan worshipers to reverse
positive mystical symbols. If you ever see anyone wearing
a crucifix UPSIDE DOWN, now you know why. Same goes
for a five-point star with two points up, one point down.

Actually, Louis, the inverted penticle also symbolizes (in some Wiccan traditions) a second-degree practitioner (please correct me if I'm wrong any of the Wiccan practitioners on this board.)

Anyhow, the swastika is actually one of the sun symbols in Eastern (and I believe some of the Western) religions (other than the Abrahamic triad.) Some of the other symbols were used by the SS and other groups in the Nazi government.

I believe that Hitler used quite a few of the symbols that were legitimately carried by the German and Austro-Hungarian soldiers of WWI as "protection" against injury and death. I don't have the notes I took in my Wicca & Neopaganism or my Ethnicity & the Occult classes, but I could ask the instructor about this if anybody's interested.

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

[suanni]

The inverted pentacle is used by the 2nd degree Wiccan, not sure why.

[brucegdc]

Originally Posted by suanni

The inverted pentacle is used by the 2nd degree Wiccan, not sure why.

A quick web scan shows the "normal" pentacle represents spirit on top, while the inverted has earth and fire up, so it's physicality rather than spirituality.

... Bruce

[Johanna]

Originally Posted by Avinash

But the swastika was also used by germanic peoples like e.g. the Vikings, so the symbol is not typical for the East only. I've seen it on ancient christian tombs near Rome, on Roman floor mosaics and on Viking cloggs in a clogg museum.

Scandinavians still use it, at least the older generations. We bake buns with saffron or cardamom and twist them into the shape of the swastika (or the suncross), a spiral or a double spiral, to celebrate that Yule/Christmas/Winter Solstice is approaching and scare away winter.

It was rather stupid of him to mess with such a sacred symbol, it's no surprise he got flattened in the end.

[neoxenos]

An odd book that deals with Hitler and the occult is "Morning of the Magicians."

This famous symbol is older than time itself, it was in use by the Aztecs too.

It is a symbol of the perpetual movement of the universe, the Iod-He-Vau-He or the Tetragrammaton in movement: the Universal Electromagnetic-Chemical-Caloric.

It is an awesome symbol and the man who uses it correctly can perform awesome things... good or evil.

The inverted Pentagrammaton or 5 Pointed star, regardless if its used by people who believe it is good, really do not know what it is. It is The Fool, the Fallen one. Personally, I would never use that symbol inverted...

The inverted Cross, or the Cross of Peter is Luciferic, however, we must realize what Lucifer is. Peter asked to be put to death like that, inverted, he was giving us a clue: VITROL. Visita Interiore Terram Rectificatum Inveniam Ocultun Lapidum. "Visit the interior of our Earth and rectifying you will find the occult stone." The Gospel of Peter is the Gospel of the Philosopher's Stone, the Occult Stone, thus, Jesus called him Ceiphas, "which by interpretation, is a stone."

Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. – 1 Peter 2:4

Anyway, the Alchemical Stone is found in the interior of the Earth, the interior of the Self, for each one of us carries a Psychological Hell in which we must dive into, in order to steal light from Lucifer, so we can turn our Darkness into Light, and thereby becoming an Enlightened one. So Lucifer, the bringer of Light, is Prometheus, he is Divine, but is morbid because we made him that way, he is the divine reflection of the Logos..

Interestingly enough, the Cross and the Swastika are the same thing. As we find out the Iod-He-Vau-He is a representation of the polarities of the universe: Male-Female... and thus, this entire post is related to sexuality. In Kabbalah, we would say it relates to Yesod and Daath, or the Sexual Organs (cross of the Lingam-Yoni) and the Creative Larynx (from which the Logos sounds, because the Creative Larynx of Jehova Elohim is a uterus that fecundates The WORD). This is why the cornerstone, sexuality, is the rock of offense and stone of stumbleing, but yet, is the stame rock we must build our internal temple upon.

[bananabrain]

A quick web scan shows the "normal" pentacle represents spirit on top, while the inverted has earth and fire up, so it's physicality rather than spirituality.

this is why it is a popular symbol with groups such as lavey's 'church of satan', whose philosophy is very much along these lines. personally, having read up on them, talked to a few and read some key texts, i would be inclined to respect them for what they're trying to do and leave them alone to get on with their lives. they're not bothering anyone and are no more harmful (and a good deal more rational) than the average member of society. to fear them is to misunderstand them - and this, in turn, is to amuse them. never underestimate the entertainment factor!

Scandinavians still use it, at least the older generations. We bake buns with saffron or cardamom and twist them into the shape of the swastika (or the suncross), a spiral or a double spiral, to celebrate that Yule/Christmas/Winter Solstice is approaching and scare away winter.

this would fit very well with the mythology of what hitler believed he was trying to do. in his scenario, the nazis were the sun that was coming to scare away the winter of the "inferior races". it is interesting that he should invert the symbol - is the suncross the same way round as the hindu swastika? either way, the inversion is replete with opportunities for us all to interpret his actions as the reverse of the sacred intention behind the sign, so let's all take that as a given and stop congratulating ourselves on our perception - we all agree nazis are bad, i hope.

This famous symbol is older than time itself, it was in use by the Aztecs too.

not that i wish to quibble, but the aztecs aren't that old a culture. nor do i particularly consider that their religious system was particularly steeped in wisdom when their main form of worship consisted of copious amounts of human sacrifice.

i've never heard of a direct connection between the swastika and the Tetragrammaton (incidentally, actually, i'd appreciate it if people didn't spell the Big T out) but there may be an indirect one via the alef, the first letter of the hebrew alphabet (or alef-beth). interestingly, the Torah does not start with an alef, but with a beth, the second letter. there are many reasons given for this in the tradition but for our purposes in this discussion, there is a connection described in the sefer Bahir (C12th) which shows an alef as being made up of four beths and then, especially with the diagram in the kaplan edition, the connection is obvious, as it denotes the functioning of linear time in our universe.

i have my own ideas about what the pentagram represents (it was sometimes known as the "seal of solomon") but, basically, it's the natural shape of a five-dimensional internally connected matrix, which connects it to the five directions of the sefer Yetzirah and the fiery "sword which turns every way" of genesis. it's a different thing from the swastika at any rate and to me it makes little difference whichever way up it is.

The Gospel of Peter is the Gospel of the Philosopher's Stone, the Occult Stone, thus, Jesus called him Ceiphas, "which by interpretation, is a stone."

erm, i thought "petrus", the latin for peter, literally means a stone. in the NT, jesus gives him the nickname, but when i read the passage concerned i felt the nickname was actually given in frustration, as in "you must have rocks in your head"; jesus could see how peter's church might turn out and was angry that he had been misinterpreted. a rock is defined by its unchangingness and lack of flexibility.

as for this also being the philosophers' stone, i would say that it's not as certain as all that. the "stone that the builders rejected" is considered by jewish tradition to be the jewish people, which in isaiah (i think) becomes the cornerstone of the Temple rebuilt. however, there is more than one rock around the place - the Tzur Yisrael or "Rock of Israel", being another name for G!D. furthermore, the "stumbling block" (see leviticus 19:14) is not an "even" or a "tzur", so it cannot necessarily be identified with a stone. look, not all stones are necessarily one stone; this raises my problem with some forms of gnosis and hermeticism, that there is this apparent need to include absolutely everything in one giant concordance-riddled system, whether it's tarot, chess, kabbalah, enochian, christianity, hinduism, egyptian and greek mysticism and alchemy. all of these things come from different places and different cultural contexts, yet they are all expected to harmonise? i don't see overwhelming evidence of it, i'm afraid, though i am more than happy to consider that we're all on the same side (or walking up the same mountain, if you prefer).

there is an interpretation of the Tetragrammaton which is a representation of the power of sexuality, but the same interpretation can just as easily refer to charitable giving. so to say that all systems are one system and that the cross, the swastika and the Tetragrammaton are all one thing is frankly reductive and open to considerable misinterpretation.

In Kabbalah, we would say it relates to Yesod and Daath, or the Sexual Organs (cross of the Lingam-Yoni) and the Creative Larynx (from which the Logos sounds, because the Creative Larynx of J-E is a uterus that fecundates The WORD).

again, i'd really rather you didn't use english approximations of Divine Names. secondly, i think you mean yesod-malkhut. thirdly, i think the kabbalah you're talking about is hermetic, not jewish and i'd appreciate it if you made the distinction. the logos is not a concept that comes from judaism, but from gnosis and mystical christianity. the greek origin of the name should be a clue.

This is why the cornerstone, sexuality, is the rock of offense and stone of stumbling, but yet, is the stame rock we must build our internal temple upon.

now this is an interesting concept and one which i find much evidence for in our tradition, but the difference is that we don't consider sexuality to be the *cause* of the "original sin", this being a christian, not a jewish concept, but a *consequence of our becoming free-willed humans and therefore having to leave the garden*. in this context, sexuality is seen as a *compensating factor*, not something to be punished for - except when it is misused, as it was during the period of biblical idolatry. nonetheless, the paradox remains that sexuality is a powerful force both for good and for evil, so thank you for mentioning it.

i'm a little bit curious, neoxenos - you're a gnostic, right? but you said in your other post (about madonna) that you didn't "much care either way" - what did that mean?

b'shalom

bananabrain

[neoxenos]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

not that i wish to quibble, but the aztecs aren't that old a culture. nor do i particularly consider that their religious system was particularly steeped in wisdom when their main form of worship consisted of copious amounts of human sacrifice.

I think every religion has wrong doings. Do Zapotecs sound better? In honesty, I am not very knowledgeable within the Central American cultures, but the little I know of their religion is enough to remove any fanatical viewpoints.

as for this also being the philosophers' stone, i would say that it's not as certain as all that. the "stone that the builders rejected" is considered by jewish tradition to be the jewish people, which in isaiah (i think) becomes the cornerstone of the Temple rebuilt. however, there is more than one rock around the place - the Tzur Yisrael or "Rock of Israel", being another name for G!D. furthermore, the "stumbling block" (see leviticus 19:14) is not an "even" or a "tzur", so it cannot necessarily be identified with a stone. look, not all stones are necessarily one stone; this raises my problem with some forms of gnosis and hermeticism, that there is this apparent need to include absolutely everything in one giant concordance-riddled system, whether it's tarot, chess, kabbalah, enochian, christianity, hinduism, egyptian and greek mysticism and alchemy. all of these things come from different places and different cultural contexts, yet they are all expected to harmonise? i don't see overwhelming evidence of it, i'm afraid, though i am more than happy to consider that we're all on the same side (or walking up the same mountain, if you prefer).

There is no doubt that I do a poor job in summarizing a vast concept. However, I have found all religions do harmonize, not just superficially but profoundly. Why find such numerous connections? Because when they are known, religious pride is reduced to dust.

"The Stone" is and old symbol. Egyptian paintings often find Osiris sitting on the Cubic Stone.

He that is wounded in the stones, or that his privy member cut off, shall not enter unto the congregation of the Lord. Deuteronomy 23:1

An odd quote like this seems to make sense when we begin to relate the Stone or Rock within sexual terms.

I do agree with you that most "New Age" doctrines are nothing more than a mish-mash of self-appeasing theologies and ideologies, some of which, like Enochain language of Dr. Dee is nothing more than degenerate spiritualism. Something like Tarot, on the other hand, has great wisdom. How are we to understand the very first paragraph of Pistis Sophia without Tarot and Kabbalah? How can we understand the final book of the Bible without these two sciences? It is impossible.

so to say that all systems are one system and that the cross, the swastika and the Tetragrammaton are all one thing is frankly reductive and open to considerable misinterpretation.

Of course there are many meanings to the great mysteries of life and death.

again, i'd really rather you didn't use english approximations of Divine Names. secondly, i think you mean yesod-malkhut. thirdly, i think the kabbalah you're talking about is hermetic, not jewish and i'd appreciate it if you made the distinction. the logos is not a concept that comes from judaism, but from gnosis and mystical christianity. the greek origin of the name should be a clue.

I am very sorry for offending you with my profanity. If there is a website that has the versions of spellings you would rather me use, I would like to read it. Obviously, I am ignorant to Judaic susceptibilities.

Yes, Logos is a Greek term, so is Fiat Lux, but they are referencing, "Let there be light!" Which is the word of God, which is the Logos. If we disagree, then what more can be said?

now this is an interesting concept and one which i find much evidence for in our tradition, but the difference is that we don't consider sexuality to be the *cause* of the "original sin", this being a christian, not a jewish concept, but a *consequence of our becoming free-willed humans and therefore having to leave the garden*. in this context, sexuality is seen as a *compensating factor*, not something to be punished for - except when it is misused, as it was during the period of biblical idolatry. nonetheless, the paradox remains that sexuality is a powerful force both for good and for evil, so thank you for mentioning it.

I see the Tempting Serpent of Eden the negative and the Bronze Serpent of Moses the positive. Bronze, of course, is the conjunction of Tin and Copper. So this Alchemical. I also see the Caduceus of Mercury, the Seven Nagas, the Kundalini and Quetzalcoatl containing overlapping symbolism of a ubiquitous noumenon.

I do not see the leaving of the Garden of Eden as that which makes us human, but instead that which makes us sub-human. This is of course a radical difference.

i'm a little bit curious, neoxenos - you're a gnostic, right? but you said in your other post (about madonna) that you didn't "much care either way" - what did that mean?

I meant that it does not matter where the knowledge that has affirmed the spiritual experiences of my life came from. Simply that it exists and if I think it came from one place and someone else thinks it came from another, it will not do anything to further our union with God and therefore is a waste of time to discuss. I must admit, however, if I really had “hard evidence” as to the origin of everything, I would just say it, but I do not, and I dislike “intellectual arguments,” because they are, once again, a waste of time in my opinion. Direct experience is the only way to truly know anything, everything else is just intelligence, not Wisdom.

[bananabrain]

I think every religion has wrong doings.

yes, well, i think it is indeed correct to say that every religion has or has had adherents who behave[d] in a manner that modern [white] westerners find morally objectionable. in some cases the "correct" behaviour from the religious PoV was what causes a modern moral problem. but what this actually reveals is not that the aforementioned moderns are right in all cases about ethics, but that there is no commonly standard of moral behaviour that has prevailed both in time and popularity. it's one or t'other in my experience; this is an observation, not a value judgement, but in the case of the aztecs i think that neither time nor popularity have been kind to them. i know bugger-all about the zapotecs but if they didn't practise human sacrifice i will object less to their identification with ancient wisdom.

However, I have found all religions do harmonize, not just superficially but profoundly.

hmmm. sometimes, though, profound truths (like the "golden rule" which is found in every system) can sound pretty trite and obvious. saying "peace and love/no more war/down with fascism" fails the test of implementation. when i say harmonise, i mean the details have to be compatible too. and they're not. each belief system has its means of understanding other belief systems. some are inclusive and some are not.

Why find such numerous connections? Because when they are known, religious pride is reduced to dust.

pride schmide. that sounds to me like a windy way of saying what our own transcendentalist kurt kawohl says, that we should all basically be part of a giant super-religion that negates all differences. judaism hasn't lasted 3000+ years by doing that. that's called utilitarianism and whenever it is tried in human history it quickly turns into totalitarianism. no thank you very much.

An odd quote like this seems to make sense when we begin to relate the Stone or Rock within sexual terms.

well, i dare say, but it doesn't make any sense when you look at the original hebrew, which doesn't mention stones or rocks. i think you're being misled by king james' translators. and within its context (qualification for the priesthood) there's nothing "odd" about it.

How are we to understand the very first paragraph of Pistis Sophia without Tarot and Kabbalah?

show me the first paragraph of pistis sophia and we can discuss it. it is in the nature of traditional kabbalah to provide intuitively satisfying explanations for areas outside its own bailiwick. that doesn't mean that kabbalistic theories themselves necessarily rely on earlier ideas from outside judaism. i will of course accept that there seems to be some crossover of ideas, but you're basically talking about abstract ideas of theosophy (with a small t) and mysticism.

How can we understand the final book of the Bible without these two sciences? It is impossible.

well, if you're talking about revelations, it ain't in the jewish bible, so it ain't a problem for me.

I am very sorry for offending you with my profanity. If there is a website that has the versions of spellings you would rather me use, I would like to read it. Obviously, I am ignorant to Judaic susceptibilities.

*grin* i presume you mean sensibilities. don't worry, i'm not easily offended. my concern is that someone should print this out and then take it into an inappropriate place, or, worse, try to sound it out as it is spelt. the phrases "Tetragrammaton" or "4-letter Name " are fine, as is "Elokim" or "HaShem" or "the Y-Name". You can also use exclamation marks (as i often do when saying "G!D") or under_scores, spaces or "*". you can also refer to the Names keyed to the sefirot by the sefirah concerned - although i don't agree with those who put jesus in tiferet, obviously. i'm used to the hermetic transliteration conventions, although i don't use 'em meself.

If we disagree, then what more can be said?

fair enough. i just tend to preface my remarks with the fact that it is my opinion or a jewishly sourced opinion and i try wherever possible to give references.

I see the Tempting Serpent of Eden the negative and the Bronze Serpent of Moses the positive. Bronze, of course, is the conjunction of Tin and Copper. So this Alchemical. I also see the Caduceus of Mercury, the Seven Nagas, the Kundalini and Quetzalcoatl containing overlapping symbolism of a ubiquitous noumenon.

ok, if that's your bag. there's a flood myth in every culture, too. the bronze serpent, however, turned rather negative eventually, which was why king hezekiah (i think) had it destroyed.

I do not see the leaving of the Garden of Eden as that which makes us human, but instead that which makes us sub-human. This is of course a radical difference.

oh, yes, of course. that's the fundamental difference between jews and gnostics. no demiurge for us, thank'ee. i personally find it hard to consider that a 600ft-tall spiky hermaphrodite (according to the Midrash, anyway) is the ideal human. within judaism, the expulsion from eden is actually a paradox, as many of the things adam and eve can experience outside are somewhat double-edged. i prefer to think of it as the difference between a free-willed existence and one of complete determinism. both have advantages and disadvantages, but we are determined to make the best of the one we're stuck with.

Direct experience is the only way to truly know anything, everything else is just intelligence, not Wisdom.

i see what you mean, but that doesn't mean we should negate the intellect; it just doesn't get to have things all its own way. besides, reported direct experience is by its nature untranslatable because of the philosophical problem of the privacy of experience.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[neoxenos]

bananabrain,

Thank you for all the information and comments.

I may post something about the Pistis Sophia, but, perhaps it is best in the Alternative section.

Regards,
Steve

[IlluSionS667]

The "hakenkreuz" used by the NSDAP was a positive symbol.

The "hakenkreuz" is one of the oldest symbols in the world. The meaning is different in different cultures, but in all of them it somewhat resembles the meaning of the yin-yang symbol.

The most wellknown versions of the "hakenkreuz" are the Buddhist one (manji), the Hindu one (swastika) and the Nordic one (fylfot).

Many people seem to think that Hitler used the Hindu swastika and inverted it to have the oposite meaning of the orriginal symbol. This however is untrue. While the standard version of the Hindu swastika if counter-clockwise, the standard version of the Nordic fylfot is clockwise. And Hitler of course used the Nordic version as an example, referring to the Nordic origin of the German people.

The clockwise version of the symbol, has even been used in the US, as a good luck symbol (http://www.heathenworld.com/swastika/postcard5.jpg , http://www.heathenworld.com/swastika/postcard2.jpg , http://www.scouting.milestones.btint...ieatwell02.jpg )

Hitler's "hakenkreuz" represented the harmony and peace that would be present in Hitler's utopic Germania, his ideal land of milk and honey.

[Karehndiujo Mohmid]

Originally Posted by IlluSionS667

...Hitler's "hakenkreuz"...

Excellent post! There is much knowledge to be found in the Norse myths and the runes that tell their story.

I have something to add to this myself but, instead of burying your insights with a new rant, I will simply offer a link that seems to encapsulate my thoughts on this and compliment your own as well:

http://www.crystalinks.com/atlantisthule.html

As with most "New Age" sorts of websites, one must be careful to distinguish facts from the author's own musings but it is a good site nonetheless.

[I, Brian]

It's interesting - but the claim that all real mentions of "Thule" were removed from the texts copied by "mediaeval" monks begs the question of what historical source is being called upon to give thule it's attributes, when the historical sources that remain strongly suggest 3 good possibilities: Iceland, Shetland Island, or even part of Norway. That would certainly tie in with tall blue-eyed blondes.

Oh - and welcome to CR, IlluSionS667 - interesting post as well - thanks for that.

[Karehndiujo Mohmid]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

It's interesting - but the claim that all real mentions of "Thule" were removed from the texts copied by "mediaeval" monks begs the question of what historical source is being called upon to give thule it's attributes, when the historical sources that remain strongly suggest 3 good possibilities: Iceland, Shetland Island, or even part of Norway. That would certainly tie in with tall blue-eyed blondes.

Oh - and welcome to CR, IlluSionS667 - interesting post as well - thanks for that.

Yes. That is very interesting. Makes one wonder what's really going on.

Okay, then. Here we go. Everybody get your swastikas: http://www.indiayogi.com/eshop/sadetail.asp?id=1397

Time to crack some skulls.
Chop chop. Haven't got all day.