Hell is a Hoax

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I make charge against no-one Q. I merely point out the fact of evangelical history and how intentions do not always meet realities. I find evangelism often not to be what it is painted, that it is misunderstood. Rather than spreading the word to bring more people to God it can be viewed as a vanity of ego. That it takes converts to a message to keep propped up the validity of ones beliefs. That it is a selfish need for justification by having others change their beliefs to agree with you. I see this as especially true amongst certain cults like JW,s and Scientologists. I find it nauseating.

Tao

Tao,

This is a bit of its own topic, but I must respond.

I understand what you are saying, and I agree that there has been much suffering and sin resulting from some evangelical/missionary endeavors. However, I would put forth that there has also been good, more in recent times but even some arising from earlier missions.

As is true with all religions, politics, or philosophies, there are those who would use them for their own gain, twisting the greater good and service to others (and love) with their own desires and fears. While we may not be able to fully reach the level of love that Christ had (although Christ did command us to be perfect, insinuating that we might if we can empty ourselves enough to fill up with him), we can see people whose primary focus on loving and serving others did ease others' suffering, both materially and spiritually.

Furthermore, I would also put forth that there are two additional dimensions of sharing the Good News that are often overlooked when one becomes focused on the negative results of insincere or ignorant missionaries: first, that just as God does with all sin, He can find ways to work through even the most ignorant or insincere to others' benefit and second, that sharing the Good News does not always mean a call to obtain converts (for themselves, for a church, for God, or for oneself).

In the first case, I myself have spoken to people who had great material suffering as a result of missionaries, who still insisted that they were grateful, no matter how much they wished the missionaries had been less ignorant, prejudiced, or selfish. That is, they came to a sincere place of knowing Christ and God's love, and this changed them fundamentally, and despite disagreeing with much of various churches practices and how evangelism was carried out, they were still grateful for it, since it brought them to their greatest joy, which was experiencing God.

In the second, there are Christians who neither try to win converts, nor feel that sharing the Good News is about converting people to Christian churches. For example, in my case, I firmly believe I am called to share the Gospel and God's love with all I meet. But this does not mean I need to use words, or talk about religion at all. In most cases, I feel called to smile, to be available for them to speak about their burdens, to be friendly and helpful, to reach out my energy in love, to encourage, to uplift. I am not saying this is the only way to share the Gospel, or the best way, or the right way. But I am saying that for some of us, we are more called to try to act as Christ's feet and hands than as His mouth. Occasionally I do feel called to share with someone, but it is generally at their bidding, or when they are in great turmoil and ask me what might alleviate their suffering. And then I offer Christ and the Bible not as the "right answer," but in all honesty, the only answer I know. And I tell them that- there are many religions to choose from, and many sacred texts, and many others who have far more love, patience, gentleness, and peace than I have (including from other religions). I tell them I am not the best person to answer that question, but I will offer what I can. And what I can offer is that although I find joy and peace in many things, when I am in despair it is Christ who finds me and picks me up. And it is Christ in me that calls me to self-contemplation, to repentence, and to a better life. It is Christ that saves me. For that reason, he is my King and my Lord. He is the best gift I have to offer someone else, whether through my actions or through my words.

I could care less about how many people are Christians. I have often walked my path alone, and indeed, I sometimes feel less understood by Christians than people of other faiths. It is not about the social groups and labels of religion and who belongs where, and how many people come to church on Sunday for me. For some of us, we believe in sharing Christ because it is the best thing we have to give. Plain and simple.

This thread has become ever more interesting. Thanks to all who have brought in Biblical passages- they are very good for contemplation.

Path

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I make charge against no-one Q. I merely point out the fact of evangelical history and how intentions do not always meet realities. I find evangelism often not to be what it is painted, that it is misunderstood. Rather than spreading the word to bring more people to God it can be viewed as a vanity of ego. That it takes converts to a message to keep propped up the validity of ones beliefs. That it is a selfish need for justification by having others change their beliefs to agree with you. I see this as especially true amongst certain cults like JW,s and Scientologists. I find it nauseating.

Tao

And democrats and republicans...and urbanites and ruralites, and nations, and ethnicities, and creeds, and color, isn't that simply a microcosim of life?

[Tao_Equus]

Thank you Path and Q,

You are both of course perfectly correct. Forgive me but as a newly converted evangelising atheist I have a lot of learning to do

I am very aware that very many people of faith are unselfish and only seek to be simple good people because that is their true nature. I will try and be more careful to give credit where credit is due and balance my statements.




Tao

[mee]

yes, Hell is a hoax .
The clergy have put fire into the word “hell,” the vital question is, Did the inspired Hebrew Bible writers say that conscious life and red-hot activity exist in Sheol or hell? No, quite the opposite! Instead of blazing fire it is described as a “land of darkness.” (Job 10:21) Instead of a place of soul-chilling shrieks it is described as a place of “silence.” (Ps. 115:17) oh dear the clergy have a lot to answer for.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

[If God is for us, who can be against us?]

A thing called self?

[Opal]

Originally Posted by mee

yes, Hell is a hoax .
The clergy have put fire into the word “hell,” the vital question is, Did the inspired Hebrew Bible writers say that conscious life and red-hot activity exist in Sheol or hell? No, quite the opposite! Instead of blazing fire it is described as a “land of darkness.” (Job 10:21) Instead of a place of soul-chilling shrieks it is described as a place of “silence.” (Ps. 115:17) oh dear the clergy have a lot to answer for.

This is what I think: (sorry if my post is a bit short)
The same way how humanity develops materialistically, we also develop spiritually.
So in the time of Jesus, it was necessary to say hell was full of demons and couldrons and fire. It was just one way of getting the point across so that people would understand.

[Gatekeeper]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

A thing called self?

That is my belief, 17th! I am my own worst enemy!

Love,

James

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

That is my belief, 17th! I am my own worst enemy!

Love,

James

I wouldn't say worst enemy... Just, we can be our own obstacle..... End of the day it is you and only you that can decide. Sure you want a miracle be that miracle... You want to go to heaven, be the stairway... Want to go to hell then make the slide..... All in all, yea... judge not lest ye be judged or whatever, but you are really the judge and jury at the end of the day.... Judgement day when you approach that throne and ponder on what god will look like, I am sure he will be you. Like a mirror.... Who can truly judge you better than self?

[Gatekeeper]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

I wouldn't say worst enemy... Just, we can be our own obstacle..... End of the day it is you and only you that can decide. Sure you want a miracle be that miracle... You want to go to heaven, be the stairway... Want to go to hell then make the slide..... All in all, yea... judge not lest ye be judged or whatever, but you are really the judge and jury at the end of the day.... Judgement day when you approach that throne and ponder on what god will look like, I am sure he will be you. Like a mirror.... Who can truly judge you better than self?

If God had a name what would it be?
And would you call it to his face?
If you were faced with him
In all his glory
What would you ask if you had just one question?

*And yeah, yeah, God is great
Yeah, yeah, God is good
Yeah, yeah, yeah-yeah-yeah

What if God was one of us?
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home

If God had a face what would it look like?
And would you want to see
If seeing meant that
you would have to believe
in things like heaven and in Jesus and the saints
and all the prophets (*)

Trying to make his way home
Back up to heaven all alone
Nobody calling on the phone
'cept for the Pope maybe in Rome(*)

Just trying to make his way home
Like a holy rolling stone
Back up to heaven all alone
Just trying to make his way home
Nobody calling on the phone
'cept for the Pope maybe in Rome

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by mee

yes, Hell is a hoax .
The clergy have put fire into the word “hell,” the vital question is, Did the inspired Hebrew Bible writers say that conscious life and red-hot activity exist in Sheol or hell? No, quite the opposite! Instead of blazing fire it is described as a “land of darkness.” (Job 10:21) Instead of a place of soul-chilling shrieks it is described as a place of “silence.” (Ps. 115:17) oh dear the clergy have a lot to answer for.

Darkness and silence = death. In a good world this is hell. Ceasing to be is scary to most. But when rich clergymen enslave peoples, beat them, rape them, work them to the bone then death, the peace of darkness and silence, is just too inviting. And so they fill it with torture instead. Because they were such holy and righteous men peddling such wonderful truths!!

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I make charge against no-one Q. I merely point out the fact of evangelical history and how intentions do not always meet realities. I find evangelism often not to be what it is painted, that it is misunderstood. Rather than spreading the word to bring more people to God it can be viewed as a vanity of ego. That it takes converts to a message to keep propped up the validity of ones beliefs. That it is a selfish need for justification by having others change their beliefs to agree with you. I see this as especially true amongst certain cults like JW,s and Scientologists. I find it nauseating.

Tao

This is a familiar lament of the apostle Paul.

"Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice." - Philippians 1:15-18

Apparently, he wasn't too much bothered by it.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Opal

This is what I think: (sorry if my post is a bit short)
The same way how humanity develops materialistically, we also develop spiritually.
So in the time of Jesus, it was necessary to say hell was full of demons and couldrons and fire. It was just one way of getting the point across so that people would understand.

getting back to what sheol (hebrew) and Hades(Greek) really means , will mean that we can understand the meaning that Jesus meant . and one thing is for sure it was not the hellfire that the clergy have misled people with.


and even when Jesus spoke of gehenna , he was not meaning that people would be thrown in litral fire he was refering to total destruction .

Jesus indicated that when Judas died, there was no hope of a return for him. He did not live on in God’s memory. He went, not to Sheol, but to Gehenna. What is Gehenna?

Jesus condemned the religious leaders of his day because they made each of their disciples “a subject for Gehenna.” (Matthew 23:15) Back at that time, people were familiar with the Valley of Hinnom, an area used as a garbage dump where bodies of executed criminals who were deemed unworthy of a proper burial were deposited. Earlier, Jesus himself had made mention of Gehenna in his Sermon on the Mount. (Matthew 5:29, 30) Its symbolic meaning was clear to his listeners. Gehenna represented complete destruction without hope of a resurrection.


but religious leaders have told people lies about people going to a litral hellfire how bad is that

[mee]

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

If God had a name what would it be?

here it is and it means HE CAUSES TO BECOME


That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,
You alone are the Most High over all the earth. PSALM 83;18

[mee]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Darkness and silence = death.

YES THATS ABOUT IT mankinds common grave , all of the talk about people being roasted forever is evil indeed , what lies those so called religious leaders have promoted about God. the hose is on the hell of falsehood , and the truth of the bible is enlightenment indeed.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

by having others change their beliefs to agree with you. I see this as especially true amongst certain cults like JW,s and Scientologists. I find it nauseating.

Tao

maybe you are missing the point and do not see that the GOODNEWS that JW are giving out, is not there own thoughts but it is all based on the bible.
And the message is all about GOODNEWS . and people do not change their beliefs for other people they change their beliefs because they want to be more inline with the bible and what it teaches . and getting inline with the purpose of God ,and doing his will is what it is all about .



The bible (Gods word)is like a 2 edged sword and can go very deep and can change out thoughts and actions. and it is always for our benefit .


For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and [their] marrow, and [is] able to discern thoughts and intentions of [the] heart HEBREW 4;12


All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
2 timothy 3;16-17




JW are only the message bringers , and it is GOODNEWS




What does the expression “feet shod with the equipment of the good news of peace” mean for Christians? (Ephesians 6:15) It means that we are prepared for action. We are ready to share the good news of God’s Kingdom on every suitable occasion. (Romans 10:13-15) yes the bible and what it says leads people to EVERLASTING LIFE


This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. JOHN 17;3