Hell is a Hoax

[noctuary]

Originally Posted by greymare

Ill be seeing you there i suspect. LOL. ah, well we wont be lonely.

I have it on good authority I got a good reservation. Lots of brochures, all the fine places to be tortured. I even got coupons for a two for one special dinner.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Have I mentioned my condo? Great lakeside view!

Chris

[Tao_Equus]

I just checked and Hull, often misspelt "hell", still exists. A few facts about Hull:

Background
Hull is isolated from much of the country by the Humber estuary
Hull was first established by monks looking for a port to export their wool
Hull grew rapidly in the 19th Century through its connections with the fishing industry

Trigger Factors
Fishing agreements have limited the size of catches
The city was heavily bombed during WW2
Over the last five years the local council has wasted £650 million pounds
The world depression of the 1930s led to the closure of the shipyards
Hull's traditional industries have struggled to compete with their foreign rivals

Effects
Drug related crime and heroin addiction is a major problem
There are now 10,000 empty homes in Hull
Hull has some of the cheapest house prices in the UK
Hull has the lowest percentage of students achieving 5 GCSE grades A-C (28.9%)
The city now suffers from high levels of unemployment
The city centre suffers from having many unattractive and cheap building developments
Very few fishing trawlers remain in the docks
Hull has been nominated as the worst settlement in the UK.

Far being a place full of fire and brimstone, as some extremely unreliable institutions would have you believe, Hull is cold, grey, damp and thoroughly miserable. Hull is the place to retire to if one has come down with terminal stupidity, something once endemic across England but which now thanks to the tireless educational efforts of their esteemed neighbours, The Scots, is now on the retreat. Hull however defiantly holds out, being so stupid as to actually build their city not by the river but in it!! So next time any of you funda-mental-ists go condemning people to Hull, think twice please. For surely no-one deserves that!!

Typical daily life in Hull

[kf123]

Maybe "hell" is not so much a place, but an event. Rev. 20:9, 14, 15. Malachi 4:1-3 suggests the saints will walk on the ashes of the wicked. Yes, through Jesus it is possible for all to be saved, but we have free will and not everyone chooses to be saved.

[path_of_one]

Noctuary, you made me chuckle.

Incidentally, TE- there is a Hell on the Cayman Islands. But it's more like Paradise! You can get postcards saying you visited Hell. The city's sign with it's population was a popular photo opp when I went there.

My experience of the God I worship is such that torturing or punishing people completely flies in the face of everything I have experienced of Him/Her/It, so I conclude that it is more a state we choose until we choose to leave it. And oddly, I don't think you have to be aware you've chosen otherwise consciously to avoid it. Conversely, there is some truth to those passages in the Bible about the people who claim to follow Christ and will later get a surprise when they realize God knows it was a sham, an act.

Anyhoo, I've read Dante and enjoyed it, but then I enjoyed it like I enjoy Edgar Allen Poe or a good horror movie. Little seemed grounded in any sort of Biblical evidence, and even less in my spiritual experience.

And something is hard for me to swallow about being happy with the thought of being a saint walking on the ashes of unenlightened beings. Maybe I have too strong a flavor of Buddhism to my Christianity, but the Christ of Revelation never jived quite right with the Christ I know and love through the Gospels and personal experience. I'm more down with the boddhisattva idea- I'd rather get more enlightened and then come back as many times as needed to help others. Who really grasps the love of God but is happy with the thought of treading on the remains of others who were so obviously lost? It just doesn't sit right with me...

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

I, (amazingly) learnt something last night, I was recapping on the case of John Wayne Gacy.... You know, the guy who (as far as we know) killed 33 young males.... Now the main dectective incharge of this investigation... Heeded the words of a psyhcic... (sp) Like how freaking stupid is that? What a waste of time..... Right? He believed in something that was so un freaking believable.... YET it paid off.... Now, this made me ponder... This guy said "What if this woman is right?" What if..... If she was right, that is a terrible tale.. This upright good man, helpful friendly man... Raped and killed 33 (known number) boys.... IF this is right... Then we gotta do something... IF he was wrong, what had he lost? Nothing.......

So, a belife in Hell.... Is it healthy? I think it is. And I can't see any bad from thinking "What if".

I know a detective with a sheriff's dept. who is psychic. He's used the ability for years to solve murders. He has retrocognition and precognition- that is, sometimes he sees crimes before they are committed, but more often he sees what is like a videotape in his head of the crime once he gets in close proximity to the scene.

I don't see a belief in Hell as ultimately healthy, no. I think, at the least, it depends on how you use the concept. If your spiritual walk is based on carrot vs. stick (i.e., heaven vs. hell), it seems a childish and insincere reason to worship God.

I worship God not for what I will get out of the deal, or what I want to avoid, but because God is God. If the atheists are right and I'm snuffed out of existence after this life, this life was enough for me to be grateful for. This life is a blast, and creation is amazing, and my experience of God is awesome. God deserves my worship and my service through loving others the best I can simply because I am alive, and other beings are alive, and I can feel love. It doesn't get much better than the moments one truly lives and loves wholeheartedly, without regret and without premeditation and without thought for anything but the moment.

[esa888]

I agree with most of these comments, this idea of hell/devil stuff is just a usefull tool to keep people under control, they are just symbols and a good way to avoid the responsibilty of our actions.

I think of it, as states of mind, you are either going with existance (towards perfection) or against (selfishness, animalistic, for the self).

These old concepts have been usefull in the past, we do need rules to help us grow and learn.

[Bruce Michael]

Before entering the heavenly realms (Devachan) the human soul has to be purified.
The Tibetans and Egyptian knew of this:

Bardo Thodol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Book of the Dead - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

People often report that "their life flashed before their eyes" after experiencing a near death experience.

At the time of death the etheric and astral bodies lift out of the corpse.

We enter a condition known as Kamaloca (translated as "desire place"):
Kamaloka - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This state is one of great thirst because we still have bodily desires but do not have the bodily organs. Clairvoyants report seeing suffering souls around pubs for instance.

This is the same as the Catholic purgatory (a purging).

In Kamaloca we live our life backwards, going over all of the events, but this time objectively. All the suffering we caused to others - even animals - is experienced by us. Vivisectionists have a particularly bad time of it.

This period lasts about a third of our previous life.

-Br.Bruce

[cyberpi]

From many places, I imagine, Earth could look like heaven. From many places, I imagine, Earth could look like hell.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I worship God not for what I will get out of the deal, or what I want to avoid, but because God is God. If the atheists are right and I'm snuffed out of existence after this life, this life was enough for me to be grateful for. This life is a blast, and creation is amazing, and my experience of God is awesome. God deserves my worship and my service through loving others the best I can simply because I am alive, and other beings are alive, and I can feel love. It doesn't get much better than the moments one truly lives and loves wholeheartedly, without regret and without premeditation and without thought for anything but the moment.

Pascal's wager?

[path_of_one]

As far as I understand it, Pascal's Wager was closer to what 17th was saying. Believe in God, heaven, and hell because you lose nothing if you do and are wrong, but everything if you don't and are wrong. Basically, cover your bases by believing so you ensure if the atheists are wrong, you get into heaven.

I think that's an insincere way to worship God.

Additionally, I don't promote believing in God because of any benefits it may bring to the believer, as Pascal put forth.

I promote worshipping God if one experiences any shred of intuitive feeling that this life is not a mere coincidence, if one finds love in the mystery of spirituality, simply because that is enough to warrant it. If I never get anything out of my spiritual path, it doesn't matter. What I already received in being alive and loving other beings on earth is sufficient cause to be grateful to God, regardless of what happens after I die or even how my life goes currently. Of course, I see God in life itself, in all beings. So life itself is enough to show God deserving of my praise and service, and likewise the Earth (though I worship only God).

In short, if I were to evangelize (which we all know I don't ), but if I did, I would argue for a spirituality that abandons any sort of focus on personal gain. Isn't that we are alive and were given this amazing Earth and each other enough to lead to gratefulness and wonder? Why must we focus on gaining anything more? And it seems, if we focus our attention on thankfulness and love and service to each other, there is little room for hell.

[Dondi]

I'm more prone to think that hell is related to one's existence apart from the Divine. The imagery that Jesus employs seems indicate this. The burning is the indignation of one's heart in rejection of God and His Righteousness. In Hebrews 12:29, we read that God is a consuming fire which occurs because one who is not right with God will always know that he is not right with God and that will eat Him up, as the worm that dieth not, nor the fire quenched, as Mark 9:44 states. Deuteronomy 28:18 hints at this, "Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood"; So there is a sense of foreboding and bitterness knowing you are in that position. It is a condition of the heart towards God, that as long as one is diametrically opposed, there is that sense of wrongness that will gnaw on his spirit. The outer darkness occurs because the heart lives in darkness, as opposed to God's light. The light of God lights the soul of a man, revealing everything open. When one tries to hide from God, that heart is in darkness. We choose the darkness because we enjoy the pleasures of sin, and not the righteousness of God. We are afraid to come into the light, because we know that it will expose ourselves openly toward God. Not that God doesn't already know, but in hiding, we deceive ourselves in thinking that God doesn't know, which makes it all the worse.

Whether Hell is literal fire and brimstone, or a state of the heart, or both, the conditions promises to be most unpleasant either way.

I can sense that even now, when I know I'm not at a place I need to be, not only with God , but also the people around me. I know when I've done wrong. I know when I continue to do wrong. And as long as I keep myself in the darkness, there is that foreboding sense of wrongness that remains until I fess up and decide to get things right. The process is far from easy because it is painful emotionally, but I have found that when one gives it up to God an amazing healing comes to the heart and soul and a sense of cleansing of one's heart brings back the peace that eluded me when I tried to hide it. It is very liberating to know that God will stop prodding you when you turn back to Him. "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God." - I John 3:20-21

We need to get past the superficial imagery of Hell and into the right relationship with God that will take us out of the despair we are in. Heaven and Hell are tried into that relationship between God and our neighbor. And I believe that when we are honest and sincere to God in this regard, He's not gonna care much what religion affiliation you are, His Grace will shine upon you.

[Opal]

Originally Posted by Dondi

I'm more prone to think that hell is related to one's existence apart from the Divine. The imagery that Jesus employs seems indicate this. The burning is the indignation of one's heart in rejection of God and His Righteousness. In Hebrews 12:29, we read that God is a consuming fire which occurs because one who is not right with God will always know that he is not right with God and that will eat Him up, as the worm that dieth not, nor the fire quenched, as Mark 9:44 states. Deuteronomy 28:18 hints at this, "Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood"; So there is a sense of foreboding and bitterness knowing you are in that position. It is a condition of the heart towards God, that as long as one is diametrically opposed, there is that sense of wrongness that will gnaw on his spirit. The outer darkness occurs because the heart lives in darkness, as opposed to God's light. The light of God lights the soul of a man, revealing everything open. When one tries to hide from God, that heart is in darkness. We choose the darkness because we enjoy the pleasures of sin, and not the righteousness of God. We are afraid to come into the light, because we know that it will expose ourselves openly toward God. Not that God doesn't already know, but in hiding, we deceive ourselves in thinking that God doesn't know, which makes it all the worse.

Whether Hell is literal fire and brimstone, or a state of the heart, or both, the conditions promises to be most unpleasant either way.

I can sense that even now, when I know I'm not at a place I need to be, not only with God , but also the people around me. I know when I've done wrong. I know when I continue to do wrong. And as long as I keep myself in the darkness, there is that foreboding sense of wrongness that remains until I fess up and decide to get things right. The process is far from easy because it is painful emotionally, but I have found that when one gives it up to God an amazing healing comes to the heart and soul and a sense of cleansing of one's heart brings back the peace that eluded me when I tried to hide it. It is very liberating to know that God will stop prodding you when you turn back to Him. "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God." - I John 3:20-21

We need to get past the superficial imagery of Hell and into the right relationship with God that will take us out of the despair we are in. Heaven and Hell are tried into that relationship between God and our neighbor. And I believe that when we are honest and sincere to God in this regard, He's not gonna care much what religion affiliation you are, His Grace will shine upon you.

I just came across your post and wanted to comment.
Thats very similar to a bahai belief. We believe that hell is a state when your soul is far away from God.

[Azure24]

Originally Posted by kf123

......not everyone chooses to be saved.

Why would someone not choose to be saved, once they have seen the truth?

The King James Bible does say in Rev. 11:15 that Christ will reign "for ever and ever." However, when you add the 3rd "and for ever," it becomes unscriptural. Furthermore, as the Authorized Version of Rev. 11:15 is an unfortunate and misleading translation, the phrase "for ever and ever" is also unscriptural. Remember, Greek is a very exact language, but King James is a very inexact translation. Here's what God's "exact" Word says regarding this matter.

The Greek Scriptures say that Christ will reign "for the eons of the eons" or "the ages of the ages." Christ "reigns for the eons of the eons" because He reigns for only two eons out of all the other eons. He will reign for the next two eons. That is, He will reign for the thousand years (the next eon) and He reigns during the New Heaven and the New Earth, the eon after that.

Christ reigns over these two eons because Rev. 15:3 plainly tells us that He is "King of the eons." Except the King James Version, that is. The King James has it "King of saints." The "exact" Greek word in this verse is "eons," not "saints" or "nations." The Greek word for "saints" is agion not aions.

If God is in us all, then how can we go to a place without God ("Hell").

[Gatekeeper]

I view hell as our state of suffering in the body of God - We are punished not for our sins, but by them.

We are all in hell, and dead [in] our sins, until such time that we die to our sins, and be made new creatures in Christ, by living through His Spirit.

Love, or the [Spirit] of Christ, leads us away from sin, and it helps the suffering we endure in life disipate.

Hell is a cycle of sin and suffering that we all experience as humans. It can actually be quite beneficial, tho. [Imho]

Love,

James