Hardline takeover of mosques?

[Snoopy]

Almost half of Britain’s mosques are under the control of a hardline Islamic sect whose leading preacher loathes Western values and has called on Muslims to “shed blood” for Allah, an investigation by The Times has found.
Riyadh ul Haq, who supports armed jihad and preaches contempt for Jews, Christians and Hindus, is in line to become the spiritual leader of the Deobandi sect in Britain. The ultra-conservative movement, which gave birth to the Taleban in Afghanistan, now runs more than 600 of Britain’s 1,350 mosques, according to a police report seen by The Times.
The Times has gained access to numerous talks and sermons delivered in recent years by Mr ul Haq and other graduates of Britain’s most influential Deobandi seminary near Bury, Greater Manchester.
Intended for a Muslim-only audience, they reveal a deep-rooted hatred of Western society, admiration for the Taleban and a passionate zeal for martyrdom “in the way of Allah”.
A commentator on religious radicalism in Pakistan, where Deobandis wield significant political influence, told The Times that “blind ignorance” on the part of the Government in Britain had allowed the Deobandis to become the dominant voice of Islam in Britain’s mosques.
Khaled Ahmed said: “The UK has been ruined by the puritanism of the Deobandis. You’ve allowed the takeover of the mosques. You can’t run multiculturalism like that, because that’s a way of destroying yourself. In Britain, the Deobandi message has become even more extreme than it is in Pakistan. It’s mind-boggling.”


Hardline takeover of British mosques -Times Online

Comments?


s.

[wil]

This has been also happening in the US and as long as they are able to portray actions in Afghanistan and Iraq as Christian/Western v. Islam and as long as a huge percentage of westerners see all Muslims as of the same cloth...I'm afraid it will continue.

Western rhetoric and racism has as much to blame as anyone. I've heard repeatedly and a majority opinion that folks think the Koran and Islam is out to wipe out the infidels, jihad and intifada are intended to make everyone Muslim or else. As long as we (as a group) keep purporting this to be true, as long as we continue our prejudice tendencies in this regard...we'll see the other side acting accordingly.

As always peace begins with me, and seeking first to understand, opening the lines of communication...

[earl]

Wil, I've seen enough video footage of Muslim radicals speaking to know that among that group it really is "infidels must convert or die." earl

[wil]

Originally Posted by earl

Wil, I've seen enough video footage of Muslim radicals speaking to know that among that group it really is "infidels must convert or die." earl

You are exactly correct but comparing Muslim radicals to Islam is like having the KKK represent all of Christianity, or Farakan represent all people of color. You can't take the rhetoric of the few and apply it to the minority....but that is what much of us have done, we take the radicals and imply the rest are just that way... and if we treat them that way we increase the likelihood of them believing the hate speech as we are the example!!

[earl]

I don't confuse the few with the many. But it seems that some folk who take your perspective (I won't lump you in with the many of them necessarily) are saying if we only preach love and tolerance and eliminate any racism we seem to be evidencing among non-Muslim folk toward Muslims-of which I have none by the way- these rabid, irrational, zealous radicals will allow us to live in peace. Afraid it's not that simple unfortunately. earl

[wil]

Originally Posted by earl

I don't confuse the few with the many. But it seems that some folk who take your perspective (I won't lump you in with the many of them necessarily) are saying if we only preach love and tolerance and eliminate any racism we seem to be evidencing among non-Muslim folk toward Muslims-of which I have none by the way- these rabid, irrational, zealous radicals will allow us to live in peace. Afraid it's not that simple unfortunately. earl

oh, you can mix me in that bunch....sort of...I'm not suggesting we only preach love and tolerance, I'm saying we should only display, act of love, forgiveness and tolerance...

Its never been tried. War, tit for tat vengence, gratuitous violence, pre-emptive strikes, that has all been tried and to what end...it has been how successful? I'd say lets try peace and love and forgiveness, it'll take how many lives before we get 1/3 of the way to the death and destruction that war has caused?? Why are we willing to send folks to die for something that has never worked in the history of civilization but not try the alternate?

[Tao_Equus]

There is no denying there is a war with Islam. People who preach the sword should be dealt with swiftly and permanently. Life in Jail...where life means life. Hard labour preferably. Only visitors immediate family. Cut them off from what they do, deny them martyrdom. No second chances.

Tao

[earl]

Tao, let's not mistake our true enemy which is not Islam by any means. It is cruelty and intolerance in all its variations, including in our own hearts. earl

[Tao_Equus]

ohhhhhh but i wishhhhhhhh
You think these self righteous fools preach your ideals?
I am secular...no "God" to punt.. these guys are as far removed from "faith" as an Inuit from the desert. When somebody denies you your humanity they forfeit theirs. No second chances.

Tao

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by earl

Tao, let's not mistake our true enemy which is not Islam by any means. It is cruelty and intolerance in all its variations, including in our own hearts. earl

Hear Hear!

The real enemy is indeed 'the enemy within our own hearts'.

Peace to all

[wil]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

There is no denying there is a war with Islam.

This is a side of the horse's mouth that is not 'familiar' and not the familiar 'way'.

[Tao_Equus]

Yup, these late nite posts after a wee dram or 3 are most revealing!! I suppose its really reflecting my growing impatiance that all religion is flawed and destined to be a cause of conflict. Of course I know that it can bring comfort and peace to most. I did not have that much to begin with, and its fast ebbing away. But is the comfort it gives people even a good thing? Or is it a gross self deception that builds the foundations for the extremes of man's inhumanity to man across the world? Remove God, you remove most of the backbone for any argument for human conflict. So what use is God to us?

I would like to see religious extremists removed from the picture but it is not lost on me that doing so can be seen as a denial of freedom of expression. Despite the PC denial of a war with Islam it is a fact. in survey after survey across the Islamic world this is the perception amongst Muslims. If the so called majority of peaceable Muslims will not deal with the extremists in their midst then we must. In this case this is a UK issue of how we deal with these hatemongers. We do not limit it to radical Imams and there are regularly prosecutions against neo-nazi racist groups/individuals too. I think we have to remove the excuse of Political or Religious rights of expression as soon as they are preaching or inciting hate. Cowards hiding behind a veil of religious legitimacy should not be tolerated within or without.

Tao

[bananabrain]

the question is what do we consider "hardline"? what is exercising me at present is precisely this:

Originally Posted by wil

You are exactly correct but comparing Muslim radicals to Islam is like having the KKK represent all of Christianity, or Farakan represent all people of color. You can't take the rhetoric of the few and apply it to the minority....but that is what much of us have done, we take the radicals and imply the rest are just that way... and if we treat them that way we increase the likelihood of them believing the hate speech as we are the example!!

what bothers me, you see, is just where the line between this supposed minority of bad apples and what is referred to as the "consensus of scholars". our very own abdullah, as posting above, is discussing this with me on the islam board at this very moment and is maintaining that i (and anyone who has heard a "clear message of islam" and have not converted, which probably means all of you as well) are "kuffar" - i.e. rejecters of G!D; the question then is, OK, if he's not willing to kill me because i'm a kaafir, that's very nice, but he still holds objectionable opinions about me the same way as an evangelical that says i'm going to hell because i haven't taken jesus as my personal saviour. the point it, is that an acceptable state of affairs? does it make islam as a whole intolerant - i would argue that, if he is correct, it does. fortunately at present i am unconvinced that he is a representative of the authoritative consensus.

come over and take a look at the discussion:

rabbinic interpretation and jewish law is neither "worship" nor "shirk"

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Tao_Equus]

Ty BB for link which I followed and skimmed quickly.

The question of what constitutes religious incitement to hatred and violence should always be put before a secular jury according to our laws. Our only real cause for concern about what is being preached in this country comes from Islam and Ultra Nationalism. In the case of Islam to deny there is a war on is IMO naive. That most certainly is the view in the street when young Muslims are asked that question. It is no good, in this age, deporting the fomenters of hatred as they can carry on online from anywhere. They should be locked up for a long, long...........long time.

Despite the valiant efforts of MW to show me that the vast majority of Muslims are peaceable people the fact remains that "millions" have a deep seated hatred of the west and what we stand for. Well I am proud of the societies we find in Europe as a whole. Less so in the US which scarily is swinging fast and hard toward a Imperialist Christian Fundamentalist oligarchy. And I believe that in order for the west to build upon the open, fair and secular society we enjoy we must protect ourselves from the enemies preaching from within. We cannot afford to be soft on those that openly preach hatred to the disaffected youth in our minority groups.

And it is not just for our own security but for the quality of life these same youths should have. They should not be taught that strapping on explosives and killing innocents is a noble deed. Anyone who teaches or condones that in any way is to my mind guilty of conspiracy to murder, and deserves severe sanction.

Tao

[wil]

Despite my opposition to grading all of Islam alike and all Muslims as terrorists you do have a point however the instigator as I see it, and those who incite the inciters were not Muslim....the coalition of the willing made a calculated risk and lost.

We had this radical Osama who we supported in his efforts against the big bear Russia while he was defending Afghanistan...of course Russia fell and we dropped him and his clan like a hot potato....so he peculated, fomented and planned and got his band of merry men from Saudi to attack civilians in the US carrying out his threat of 1998.

We in turn decided Iraq was involved after we couldn't find Osama and since the house of Saud were our buddies...we needed some scapegoat and satisfaction...

So we did the math and ignored it. What math? Well when we were after Osama the world supported us. But when we pre-emptively struck at WMO regime change democracy country building axis of evil eliminating territory...we knew we were moving the fight from western soil to middle eastern and would/could be assumed to be crusading against Muslims...but we figured the risk was small...

After all say of a 1000 Muslims 10% are willing to listen to the radicals...and surely only 10% of them would keep listening....and surely only 10% of them would actually get excited about it, and only 10% of them would actually take up arms and be willing to do something about it. So what are we talking about one one hundredth of one percent...ppshaw....that's nothing.

Unfortunately Alfred E Newman and his minions and the coalition of the coerced didn't do the math right, as since there are a billion and a half Muslims, 1/100 of 1% is one hundred and fifty thousand people!!

So yes, we could say if 99.99% of Muslims are not radical enough to raise arms and bombs CURRENTLY....but 150,000 of them just might be!

And this is all there fault?? Give me a break.