Hardline takeover of mosques?

[Tao_Equus]

BB,

My apologies perhaps I was not clear enough. What I meant by mainstream public domain are such things as lists of Staff, fund-raisers, business associates and other such official government records.

Perhaps Eco's satirism of the main character really shows that the novel itself is an illustration of the futility of trying to promote truth in a world of agendas. The world is so full of crazy ideas, so lovingly propagated, that truth does not stand a chance. Even when printed in black and white on the official record. I think Eco's intention was the opposite to what you imply.

I cannot speak for Jewish communities around America but my impression from what little I have read is that they face discrimination and hardship below the national average. I think the few Jews at the top to be unrepresentative of the Jewish communities living in the deprived areas of American cities. So whats news there. The same can be said about any minority.

I will be blunt now and tell you what I am fed up with. Its Jews using the holocaust to excuse and escape from moral responsibility for what is happening in Palestine, the region and the world at large. And more generally this sick excuse of "we were the victims of atrocities throughout history". It was not only Jews that suffered the Nazi's. What does Israel do for the Gypsies who died side by side with the Jews they lament in the gas chambers of Auschwitz? Do we here them calling for the 38 million Gypsies also to be given a homeland or even the right to sustain their traditional nomadic ways? No. This is how a Gypsy living in Israel describes their life:

"Many of my people still live without electricity, many do not have indoor plumbing, and many cannot read or write. Many of the Gypsy children do not attend school because they are discriminated against by the teachers and other students. Many are ashamed to go to school because they do not have clothes or backpacks like the other children. Because their parents did not attend school they are unable to get good jobs and don't have the money needed to buy the books and school supplies.

Amoun Sleem"

If the Jewish People want sympathy perhaps they would be better to earn it through good works rather than by default as victims. Israel shows no empathy or concern for anyone but themselves. Having been there I know how racist many of them are even against me. You keep trying to say what you will about CT's, and perhaps often you are right, but not all of them are crazies and there is truth in some. And to find cynical collusions you do not need a conspiracy theory. All you need is a list of republicans and businessmen connected together since the turn of the 20th century. You look at who has profited from the bloodshed of 100 years and you see the same families pop up again and again and again and again. Thats not a theory that is a fact. Deny it all you like.....dont stop it being true.


Tao

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i don't think it's absurd to suggest that there were collaborators. i think it's absurd to suggest "prominence" and "orchestration"; like i said, every group has traitors, cowards and naive fools, as well as people who just make mistakes. however, the tone of the suggestions suggested the perpetration of a massive, intentional fraud. it is that that i take exception to.

Shalom BB

My original comment was not intended to suggest 'massive, intentional fraud' and if it came over to you that way I sincerly apologise. My honest belief is that a small number of high ranking Nazi's were of Jewish heritage (by some percentage). Clearly they thought of themselves as Germans rather than Jews, hwever that does not remove their Jewish heritage. I also believe that certain small groups of 'faithful' Jews both inside and outside the war zone are guilty of calculated inaction (ie allowing thousands to die in order to save a few Zionists - using my understanding of Zionist being politically motivated people that saw an opportunity to advance their cause in the creation of an Israeli state) and direct action (as in Kastner). I do not consider any action, by any of these people indicative of Jewish people or a principle of Judaism itself, any more than I consider Bush's bloody actions in Iraq as indicative of Christians or a teaching of Christianity.

I hope that explains where I am coming from on this.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

people (and there are many) who give their support on a basis of shared ethnicity are flying in one of the most basic precepts of the Torah:

Okay so here we have a similarity with Islam imo and the current mess we are in. I can say 'but the Quran says do not commit suicide and do not kill civilians' until the cows come home but that does not stop extremists doing it and believing they are following our faith. You must accept surely that as an outsider looking in (ie a non Jew) I can see many examples by different Jewish groups and organisations that completely fly in the face of what you are saying (an example would be the Jewish Fund we discussed that seem to say this land is only for our gang and then shout down any Jew that doesn't shout hurrah, hurrah and wave their little flag).

Originally Posted by bananabrain

how does this contravene how i expect the world to work?

I do not think we can imagine the frustration and pain the survivors must go through when they accuse and are ignored. They must have felt abandoned when it happened and abandoned again with this issue. I just hope they keep their faith in Divine justice, which far outweighs any punishment we can offer in this life.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

precisely. either way, we come back to the point that the word "orchestrate" and the word "prominent" should not be used, particularly if they are going to lend support to the idea of a jewish conspiracy to perpetrate the holocaust.

I can agree on the word orchestrate if it suggests a huge worldwide conspircy but not on prominent. Sorry but to me anyone that can have stamps issued with their face on while people are being exterminated, suggests a degree of 'prominence'. Maybe we are using the word prominence in difference ways?

salaam
MW

[bob x]

Maybe we are using the word prominence in difference ways?

Apparently so. What Tao was claiming was that Jews were prominent AMONG THE ORGANIZERS OF THE HOLOCAUST (in his world, Jews founded the "Thule Society", which are the hidden puppet-masters behind the Nazis, and the Bushes, and everybody in between), and this is what you endorsed-- if you never meant to endorse such a thing, fine.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

Apparently so. What Tao was claiming was that Jews were prominent AMONG THE ORGANIZERS OF THE HOLOCAUST (in his world, Jews founded the "Thule Society", which are the hidden puppet-masters behind the Nazis, and the Bushes, and everybody in between), and this is what you endorsed-- if you never meant to endorse such a thing, fine.

As I said at the top of the post to BB, I do believe there were small groups of powerful 'Zionists' that did use the holocaust and did not fight against it for political purposes. Their crimes include not sending money to the Jewish groups inside occupied countries when they asked for fighting funds and not passing on certain information to their own people and to the Allies, that could have stopped many deaths. What I would not accept is that all Jewish leaders all over the world somehow collaborated (like there is some kind of Jewish telepathy machine they have kept secret) and made Hitler a nutcase in order to get Israel. However I do believe that a few people used the developing situation in Europe to their distinct advantage.

Again that is not a demonstration of 'OO aren't Jewish people just born bad' or indicative of the Jewish faith. It is just rich and powerful politically minded people doing what rich and powerful politically minded people do and have done throughout history in every religion and nation.

[bob x]

Fine. What set me off here is that when Tao came in, spouting outrageous conspiracy nonsense, you immediately spoke in his favor, and then started denying that you had been speaking in favor of that kind of stuff: perhaps you were just not picking up on what Tao is saying.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

Fine. What set me off here is that when Tao came in, spouting outrageous conspiracy nonsense, you immediately spoke in his favor, and then started denying that you had been speaking in favor of that kind of stuff: perhaps you were just not picking up on what Tao is saying.

No I picked up what Tao was saying differently to the way you picked it up and I still see what he said differently. I also have not denied anything, I have simply explained my position and provided details to back up my position.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by bob x

Fine. What set me off here is that when Tao came in, spouting outrageous conspiracy nonsense, you immediately spoke in his favor, and then started denying that you had been speaking in favor of that kind of stuff: perhaps you were just not picking up on what Tao is saying.

Came in? Check out page 1.
I believe that there were some very rich individuals, like the Grandfather of your President, who actively sought to make a fortune off the Nazi war machine and found its totalitarian nature good for business. There is ample and incontrovertible evidence for this in the public records of your own country. That amongst the people working for them there were a few Jews is also a fact, an historical one. Now you may wish to cite everything I say as some crackpot conspiracy theory nonsense, you keep going for it.. you might convince yourself. But the fact remains.

Tao

[bob x]

I was referring to this kind of crap:

You do not believe the Thule Society exists? Hah Hah Hah Hah.. you must believe every word pumped out by the Israeli ministry for Bullshit...a number of the members are Jewish, even a disproportionate number...As for Rosenberg he was born in Estonia to a Jewish family...

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by bob x

I was referring to this kind of crap:

The motives and methodology of Thule live on in the Bush presidency. Given your constant blind apologetics for fascism in Israel...well I can draw what other conclusion? And as for Rosenberg... show me evidence to the contrary.

Tao

[I, Brian]

Okay, so I figure we've established by broad agreement that some people are sh!ts, regardless of religious affiliation. Not least because they will look after their own personal interests first, even if it hurts others. The point of argument being as to what degree of organisation these people have and with what particular affiliation? Am I close?

Also, quick pointer - some of the language in this thread is getting a little personal. Would be nice if we could try to avoid that. Most people here have very different beliefs, but let's not belittle that, thanks.

[Tao_Equus]

What have we established? Not a lot. But I do note that the only thread a particular individual had the drive to start was one calling for the censorship of a Hindu. I object on this forum to being called a conspiracy theorist or a neo Nazi or even an anti Zionist when I am nothing of the kind. But despite my objection, which I only make for the record, I am happy to be judged in the light of my opinions alone by the community as a whole. I can be ill judged and too fast to reply with poorly researched info, but what better way to have someone else do the research for you and correct you!! I aint a scholar, I am never even finished high school. But that wont stop me calling a spade a spade when all I can see is a bleedin spade. Sometimes on these pages the nicey niceness actually detracts from progression. No cunning linguistics can hide the barbarity of what is done in the name of one political ambition or another, and that they openly seduce using religious appeals should be made a point of in every instance. There is enough political doublespeak everywhere else.....I hope we can be truly free here.

Tao

[flowperson]

Tao my friend...For what it's worth, I didn't graduate college and ended up working at a job at the same school in a position which required a master's and preferred a PhD. And it's still a very big and good university.

In terms of your ways of expressing what you know and the ways that you think, I would say that you measure up with and surpass many PhD's I've known in my time there and elsewhere. You just tend to inject emotional appeals in your positions. Nothing wrong with that. My Dad was Italian so I can do that too.

My two cents...just keep on doing what you're doin'. I intend to also. It's hard to have a discussion among pieces of milquetoast.

flow....

[bob x]

I object on this forum to being called a conspiracy theorist or a neo Nazi or even an anti Zionist when I am nothing of the kind.

There are a lot of people who have interacted with you over the years when I have been absent from this forum, who know more about you than I do. But all I could see of you was what you chose to present of yourself to me: you presented yourself as a conspiracy theorist (I don't think I ever saw as a "neo-Nazi" exactly, but certainly as a "fellow traveller" of theirs), and continue to present yourself as a hardline anti-Zionist.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by bob x

There are a lot of people who have interacted with you over the years when I have been absent from this forum, who know more about you than I do. But all I could see of you was what you chose to present of yourself to me: you presented yourself as a conspiracy theorist (I don't think I ever saw as a "neo-Nazi" exactly, but certainly as a "fellow traveller" of theirs), and continue to present yourself as a hardline anti-Zionist.

As I understand it an anti-Zionist is someone who believes Israel has no right to exist. You can search high and low through every post and you will never find me taking that position. My moral outrage is solely in regard to the inhumane treatment of the Palestinian people. After WW2 I think it was right for the allied powers to agree to set up a homeland for the Jewish people, a sanctuary where they could defend themselves. But in doing the Israeli state has done nothing but steal more land and treat the people, whose roots were in that area, like crap. You, because you seem to hate Islam*, blame everybody but the Israeli/American alliance. If the US and Israel had pumped as much money into raising the standard of living of everybody living in that area, as they have in the weapons of oppression, then I feel very confident that there would be peace there.. well IF Israel did not keep stealing land. But the fact is as I have already stated. The US does not care and is actually happy about the status quo because it suits its strategic interests.


Tao

* I myself have no regard for any of the religions and though I would love to see them all just die a death I do not hate them nor their 'faithful'. None of the religions are confined to a single 'race' but that does not prevent hating a particular religion being a racist position. Saying Islam by its nature causes all the problems is wrong. You have just as ugly verses in the Bible as the Quran, and it is the prominence with which they are emphasised that causes issues. The majority of Muslims do not want to live in a world of religious conflict. I think you should try to remember that.

T

[Snoopy]

Referring back to the OP, this is in today’s Times:

Books calling for the beheading of lapsed Muslims, ordering women to remain indoors and forbidding interfaith marriage are being sold inside some of Britain’s leading mosques, according to research seen by The Times.
…
Extremist literature, including passages supporting the stoning of adulterers and waging violent jihad, was also found on sale at many other mosques regarded as mainstream institutions.
…
A key theme of the books was a “strident sectarianism” which told Muslims that they should remain separate from other faiths and resist integration. The report stated: “Simply put, these notions demand that the individual Muslim must not merely feel deep affection for and identity with his fellow believers and with all that is authentically Islamic. The individual Muslim must also feel an abhorrence for nonbelievers, hypocrites, heretics, and all that is deemed ‘unIslamic’. The latter category encompasses those Muslims who are judged to practise an insufficiently rigorous form of Islam.”
…
I found this one of the most depressing parts, a justification:

Inayat Bunglawala, the MCB assistant secretary-general, said: “Bookshops sell a variety of publications and we live in an open, democratic society where it is not illegal to sell books which contain antiWestern views.”

Does anti-Western mean pro-intolerance, pro-inequality and pro-death?

s.

Lessons in hate found at leading mosques -Times Online