Hardline takeover of mosques?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

People who believe this sort of secret gnosis about the hidden machinations running the world reap psychological benefits from it (a sense of superiority over everybody else), and so they are immune to being talked out of it. I am not going to waste any time with him.

Originally Posted by bob x

I was responding to a post starting "Rflmao........... you poor poor man." and calling me a "Republichrist", showing an utter incomprehension of who he is talking to. Why should I waste time with this person?

I ewas talking about the post before, which is why I quoted the above. I just don't know if you realise sometimes how your comments come across? The piece in bold sounded rather 'he is beneath me' imo.

Originally Posted by bob x

It is obvious from his posts that he has already set his mind in concrete, and anyone who does not see the wisdom will be pitied and condescended to, or condemned as an agent of the grand conspiracy.

Sorry but I disagree completely, if you actually read his posts his mind is not set at all and he is not actually saying what you keep insisting he is.

Originally Posted by bob x

Because it isn't. No, Rosenberg was not of Jewish heritage-- the name sounds Jewish, so whatever website is now gospel in Tao's eyes makes up that he was a Jew. No, the Thule Society was not Jewish; and no, it does not exist nowadays, nor has it for decades. This is the kind of lunacy that banana and I have both seen many times.

So why can't you just comment on his post which states a parentage, birthplace etc, if you believe he is wrong. Then maybe we can all learn something.

However, I have given names of people in the Nazi party that had a Jewish parent. Now to my mind either that bloodline makes them Jewish or their obvious lack of following the faith makes them not Jewish. One is faith and one is heritage. I do not feel anyone has suggested they were practising Jews and I have asked 3 times for an explanation of what constitutes a person of the Jewish faith but so far no answer, which is no help for us in understanding this issue.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

showing an utter incomprehension of who he is talking to.

Okay now that sounds like one of those 'get peoples backs up' comments. Perhaps you mean Tao does not know you as a person in real life? On first reading though it does a little arrogant, as though you are suggesting you are somewhat 'above' Tao. I am not trying to be rude but I genuinely do not know if you realise how your comments sometimes sound.

Perhaps you are some great historian or Rabbi, in which case would it not be better to use that knowledge to educate rather than to talk down to people?

[China Cat Sunflower]

I have asked 3 times for an explanation of what constitutes a person of the Jewish faith but so far no answer, which is no help for us in understanding this issue.

I've come to think of Judaism as an ethnicity. Then I thought about other religions simply as ethnicities. It kinda makes more sense that way.

Chris

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by Tao Equus

I am sorry you tow in lizards and David Icke rather than help me understand the truth a little better by informing me of what you know that I do not.

when something starts to get really, really, really silly i tend to point it out. i'm sorry if you find that problematic.

Let me get this off my chest though. I am not anti-Jew. I do not believe in a Zionist conspiracy.

OK - i don't think zionism's got anthing to do with it. but you *do* appear to believe in a conspiracy in which jews are prime movers - and that feels like splitting hairs to me. no doubt you're going to tell me some of your best friends are jewish next.

The Thule Society does exist. So does Skull and Bones and the Bilderberg Group and the Bloomberg Group.

i am sure the thule society once existed. i am sure there are people out there who think they still belong to it. there is no evidence of continuity or connection with other supposed secret societies and councils of the ultra-rich/influential. unfortunately many conspiracy theorists suppose that everything is intrinsically connected. i suggest you read umberto eco's "foucault's pendulum" which will inform you about the secret society you should really be scared of.

as for the bloomberg group, as far as i know that's a financial information organisation started by the current mayor of new york. you might as well include reuters, CNN and the BBC while you're at it.

How naive of you to suppose that the worlds wealthiest and most power hungry people do not form groups to further their aims! That a number of the members are Jewish, even a disproportionate number, does not make it a Jewish plot however and I do not believe CT's that suggest this. The vast majority of Jews are just people like everyone else.

the problem, you see, comes when people start suggesting that jews are involved in this because they are jews and that their judaism somehow impels them to work for whatever these nefarious ends are supposed to be. i mean, i seem to remember jon ronson in his series "secret masters of the world" naming denis healey, margaret thatcher and john major as members of bilderberg, yet nobody ever seems to suggest that the labour party, conservative party, granthamites or brixtonians are somehow acting in concert to influence world affairs, except of course that the first two, being political parties, must be, by definition. presumably you're equally suspicious of the european parliament.

As for Rosenberg he was born in Estonia to a Jewish family originaly from St Petersburg in Russia. He hated his "own" people for their failure to rise up in support of the Tzar against the Bolsheviks. As a result he disowned being Jewish, no much more, he developed a pathological hatred for them.

says who, exactly? this is right up there with the "hitler was jewish, you know, one of his grandmothers, yada yada yada" stuff, none of which suggestions has any basis in fact other than that a lot of people who don't seem very keen on jews are also very keen on the theories in question.

They say Mossad has eyes on every discussion forum. Any idea if there are any here? Tell tale sign is to watch out for someone with a slash and burn approach. Someone who tries to divert the topic. I have encountered Mossad before. Gun carrying Mossad agents in a country they had no right to do so. There is no Jewish conspiracy... but there are quite a few very powerful Jews.

oh, gosh, now i'm *really* laughing. boogy boogy boogy, i'm a mossad agent, i have nothing better to do than hang around on web forums talking nonsense with conspiracy theorists. i've got news for you matey, if that's true then "they" already know your IP address and have hacked into your computer. sheesh. as for your gun-toting agents, it may surprise you to learn that intelligence operatives routinely do things they have no "right" to do. that's why they call them "spies", rather than "tourists". how ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

BB you are not helping. I have always found Tao to be a reasonable guy with an enquiring mind. This is clearly a subject he is looking into and to my mind it would be better to inform him of your views or point him/us at reading that will give the other side of the story rather than just make sarcastic comments.

oh, come on, MW. i'm supposed to waste my time looking for websites that refute something that's obviously bollocks so that i can be told those websites are fronts for mossad or something? i *have* informed him of my views and of a book that will hopefully disabuse him of his paranoid delusions if he understands it. are you familiar with bertrand russell's "orbiting teapot" theory? he used it to explain why he wasn't religious but it'll do just as well here:

i am under no obligation to "disprove" the theory that there is, for example, a giant teapot orbiting jupiter. far-fetched or extravagant claims require far more substantial evidence than others.

Tao and I have both posted links to people known to have worked in or for the Nazi party (and not 'little' people afraid for their lives), that had some Jewish parentage. No-one has addressed any of those names or explained to us that to the Jewish people these men are not considered Jewish because of x, y or z.

that's precisely the point. i've never heard any reputable historian suggest that rosenberg was jewish. tao hasn't posted any, repeat ANY of his sources and all you have come up with so far is david irving, which if you ask me is somewhat counterproductive to say the least. even if i were to say that i wouldn't consider x or y person to be jewish, it doesn't undo the harm of the initial suggestion. and if one of his grandparents were, so what? does that 25% jewishness somehow inform his actions? if so, how? what evidence is there? it's this tortuous rooting around for the tiniest straw to support an absurd argument that appears to suggest wish-fulfilment. it is the easiest thing in the world to make slurs and insinuations on the internet, but if either of you knew what it was to be jewish you'd understand how nonsensical this discussion actually is. i resent having to waste my time on it and i resent the suggestion that i am obliged to refute theories that are, to me, self-evidently absurd.

And please both stop throwing this anti-semite phrase around every time someone mentions anything that doesn't sit well with you. Yes real anti-semites exist and must be re-educated/opposed but I am afraid when the phrase is thrown around with abandon it reduces it's meaning when it is genuinely needed.

i have been on this board a long time and i can count the number of times i have encountered genuine anti-semites on the fingers of one hand. i can't speak for bob, but i do not make a habit of crying "anti-semitism" when someone makes an argument i don't care for - and i have encountered plenty of such arguments. for the record, however, i consider the following to be anti-semitic:

1. the suggestion that somehow jews were motivated by judaism to facilitate the holocaust
2. the suggestion that we had nearly half our own population WIPED OUT to facilitate the creation of israel
3. the suggestion that jews are somehow motivated by judaism to form secret societies in order to control or influence world events, governments and so on
4. the suggestion that all jews are somehow agents of the israeli government and state
5. the suggestion that a person only holds positive views towards judaism, the israeli government and state by virtue of his or her jewishness
6. the theory that jews are somehow a sort of distinct species by virtue of genetic manipulation

people may flirt with some of these opinions, or they may seek to understand why i find them offensive, but they should not make the mistake of suggesting that i should be required to disprove them. i am not suggesting we do not have amongst our ranks sickoes, fascists, traitors, liars, criminals and lunatics and that some of these people may, from time to time, feel that their judaism informs their actions, but i would consider such opinions if held by jews to be hillul haShem, a desecration of the Divine Name and Image.

However, I have given names of people in the Nazi party that had a Jewish parent. Now to my mind either that bloodline makes them Jewish or their obvious lack of following the faith makes them not Jewish. One is faith and one is heritage. I do not feel anyone has suggested they were practising Jews and I have asked 3 times for an explanation of what constitutes a person of the Jewish faith but so far no answer, which is no help for us in understanding this issue.

ok then: of the two that i have heard of, one wasn't jewish (rosenberg). one chose collaboration rather than martyrdom (kastner) which makes him either a traitor or a fool or a coward or maybe all three. it's hard for me to judge - and i am sure he was not the only one, but that does not, repeat NOT, constitute "prominence", let alone "orchestration". as for these people who were supposedly in the israeli government, nobody has named any as far as i know. in any case, no sources *from a reputable historian* have been cited. i am so fed up of this discussion you wouldn't believe.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Tao_Equus]

Hi BB,

Believe is a strong word and I am as apolitic as I am atheistic. You are wrong to think I believe anything. What I write here is only to represent claims I have heard made and to state obvious truths, obvious as they are mainstream public domain.

Eco's work has long been amongst my favourites and I ask you since you have read it which character is autobiographical and if you know do you see his joke? Obviously you do not read many of my posts or you would see I'm far from credulous (nor am i easily brainwashed). For example I do not believe in God. This is a debate forum unless I am very much mistaken there is no requirement to sit on one side of any fence. My contribution in respect of what you sneer at simply represents an opinion in regard of the nature of the thread. And I only proffered it due to the smug and arrogant way in which Bob X was trying to belittle everything MW would post.

I know I repeat myself often but I am at a loss as what else to do to get that through to you. Rather than rely on a philosophical novelist perhaps you would do well to read a scientific perspective on Critical Theory such as Contested Knowledge by John Phillips. And note this... denial is as equally suspect as credulity in respect of several conspiracy theories. No smoke without fire.... If you do not think there are a disproportionate number of Jews in the Bush administration for example then how do I take you seriously? Does it infer a "Jewish conspiracy" ? Of course not but it does go some way to explaining American policy in the middle east.

So go ahead and keep trying to belittle my posts. No two people can ever agree on everything!!

Sorry got to go, two guys in dark suits from the cable company need to change my modem.

Tao

[bob x]

showing an utter incomprehension of who he is talking to.
Okay now that sounds like one of those 'get peoples backs up' comments. Perhaps you mean Tao does not know you as a person in real life?

I mean he doesn't know who I am on this board, either: I am a Kucinich/Gravel Democrat who has never considered voting for a Republican in decades because I despise the political Christians too much. His absurdly wrong characterization of me stems from his presumption that anyone who doesn't buy into his baseless conspiracy theories must be a dupe or an agent of the grand conspiracy.

Perhaps you are some great historian or Rabbi, in which case would it not be better to use that knowledge to educate rather than to talk down to people?

I do not believe that he is educable. Anything I say will be taken as proof that I am a dupe or an agent. People do recover from the paranoid mindset sometimes, but never by being argued out of it.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I've come to think of Judaism as an ethnicity. Then I thought about other religions simply as ethnicities. It kinda makes more sense that way.

Chris

It is a good way to look at it, it just becomes difficult, as it does with Islam, to seperate out what is religious from what is political.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

the problem, you see, comes when people start suggesting that jews are involved in this because they are jews

I think that is the crux of the matter BB, nobody is suggested they were involved just 'because' they were Jews. It happens to be that they were involved with x & y and they were Jewish or had some Jewish parentage. You know I am half German, if I do something bad to you it is not because I have German heritage and you are a Jew (it would be because you ate the last brownie ).

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i've got news for you matey, if that's true then "they" already know your IP address and have hacked into your computer.

Now come on, if you are suggesting governments don't watch websites and indeed add their slant then you are living in a box. Just look at any of the trials against Jihadists, they have every site they have been on, their IM messages, etc and they have invariably corresponded with these people on forums. Or is Israel immune to intelligence gathering? Big brother is watching all of us but I would like to think selectively.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

oh, come on, MW. i'm supposed to waste my time looking for websites that refute something that's obviously bollocks

Well I would have thought the whole point is that some of us do not think it is testicles (regarding Nazi's with Jewish parentage).

Originally Posted by bananabrain

all you have come up with so far is david irving,

Oh wow BB you remembered that name from the other thread but none of the other names I mentioned - hmm selective memory syndrome? (that is a joke, you are meant to laugh).

I explained that I had no idea who David Irving is and I apologised for posting his link. All I wanted from his site was the book information, which is not from an anti-semite but a serious study into this issue. I then posted 4 other sites with information from the same book (including a Jewish site, which stated they do not consider these people Jewish even though they accept the link to Jewish parentage). So let us not play silly mind games.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

even if i were to say that i wouldn't consider x or y person to be jewish, it doesn't undo the harm of the initial suggestion.

But if you say x & y were not Jews because of a & b then at least you may ensure people that read these posts do not make the same mistake in the future.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

and if one of his grandparents were, so what? does that 25% jewishness somehow inform his actions? if so, how?

Okay let us look at Kastner he was 100% Jewish by heritage and by faith - would you agree? He wore a Nazi uniform and went to a camp to select certain Jews to be sent to 'Israel'. Some of these rescued Jews later held government positions. He then helped to get thousands of people onto trains to be sent to their deaths. This is not wild speculation, this is all well documented in the Israeli court papers of the Eichmann trial.

Now does that mean Jewish people per se are culpable for the actions of this man, of course not. Does it mean your faith somehow encouraged him to do this - I would suggest no more than my faith asks bin laden to fly planes into towers.

Another, Romkowsky the ghetto king - you know the guy that had postage stamps issued with his face on, while his people starved, got beaten and murdered. His duplicity is well documented. That does not suggest it has anything to do with your faith or Jews as a people. To me it suggests an evil and very greedy egomaniac.

I posted comments by K Tzetnik, a witness at the Eichmann trial. Comments by Rudolph Verba, the Auschwitz surivor (may G-d grant him peace). They accept that these people existed and I believe they are in a better position to know the truth than you or I. There is also the issue of 'certificates of rehabilitation'. I do not make these things up because I want to annoy Jewish people, they are documented facts.

And they are just some of the names I mentioned. So please don't try the 'you only mentioned one idiot' argument. If you don't wish to discuss it that is fine and I would understand but you can't ignore the information I provide and then say I did not provide it.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

what evidence is there? it's this tortuous rooting around for the tiniest straw to support an absurd argument that appears to suggest wish-fulfilment.

If you had checked the links I provided you would know that Bryan Riggs (of Cambridge University in his book Hitlers Jewish soldiers, which if you had read the links would show you historians, including a Jewish historian, that commented positively on his findings) collected 30,000 documents that detailed the Jewish ancestry of 2 field marshals, 10 generals and 30 majors in the German army. Also 1000 German soldiers that had 2300 Jewish relatives who died in the camps.

He names 77 senior officers that received a 'declaration of German blood' from Hitler (which stated that when the war was won this status was to be reviewed). 17 of these officers received the Ritterkreuz (the highest military honour to someone of Jewish heritage).

Originally Posted by bananabrain

it is the easiest thing in the world to make slurs and insinuations on the internet, but if either of you knew what it was to be jewish you'd understand how nonsensical this discussion actually is. i resent having to waste my time on it and i resent the suggestion that i am obliged to refute theories that are, to me, self-evidently absurd.

You are right I don't know what it is like to be Jewish and to be honest if I was I would probably deny this or ask my friends not to discuss it but I would hope I would respect others right to be interested and investigate it. Without Jewish input there is a danger of some untruths remaining 'urban facts' but it would be understandable if you didn't wish to discuss it with us.

These are not slurs or insinuations, they are facts backed up with documentary evidence. They change nothing about the horror of the war, the unfairness with with Jewish people, amongst others, were treated or suggest the war was started by Jews to form Israel.

To be honest BB I would have more respect for your position if you simply said this issue is too painful for the Jewish people to discuss, rather than simply deny it and call it absurd. But please try to understand that to someone not of the Jewish faith it seems strange to suggest 'we would hunt them and string them up' then deny the evidence (and by evidence I don't mean conspiracy theories but actual documents in existence that show some prominent Nazi's had Jewish parentage).

I did not say you were obliged to refute, I simply suggested it would add more to the discussion and peoples understanding than a flat denial.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

1. the suggestion that somehow jews were motivated by judaism to facilitate the holocaust

That has never been suggested. Faith has not entered the discussion imo, the politics of people who were of Jewish heritage has.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

2. the suggestion that we had nearly half our own population WIPED OUT to facilitate the creation of israel

I would certainly not suggest this but I do believe some powerful people 'took advantage' of the situation and that some people were seen as a 'sacrifice for the greater good' of Jewish people and I believe the evidence bears out this belief. Anti-semitism does not come into that opinion, quite the reverse it is my feelings on behalf of those that died that makes me angry.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

3. the suggestion that jews are somehow motivated by judaism to form secret societies in order to control or influence world events, governments and so on

The are motivated by greed and desire for power, as are rich and powerful people of every nation and every religion. However you must surely accept that there are groups within Judaism, like all other faiths/nations, etc, that have an 'only our gang' attitude when it comes to land, money and power.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

4. the suggestion that all jews are somehow agents of the israeli government and state

I will treat that with the same humour as I treat suggestions I am a suicide bomber because I am Muslim.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

5. the suggestion that a person only holds positive views towards judaism, the israeli government and state by virtue of his or her jewishness

Why would you consider that anti-semitism? Surely it is natural to generally (rather than blindly) support your own religion/nation/political party, etc. Isn't that like saying you are anti-conservative if you suggest I support the conservative party because I am a conservative? Or have I misunderstood you?

Originally Posted by bananabrain

6. the theory that jews are somehow a sort of distinct species by virtue of genetic manipulation

I am sorry BB there is no accounting for insanity (unless you take the chocolate brownies away from me and then the insane reaction is perfectly legitimate).

Originally Posted by bananabrain

people may flirt with some of these opinions, or they may seek to understand why i find them offensive, but they should not make the mistake of suggesting that i should be required to disprove them.

Forgive me BB I wasn't trying to suggest you have to disprove them, I was just saying that giving the other side of the coin may be more useful than a flat denial.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i am not suggesting we do not have amongst our ranks sickoes, fascists, traitors, liars, criminals and lunatics and that some of these people may, from time to time, feel that their judaism informs their actions, but i would consider such opinions if held by jews to be hillul haShem, a desecration of the Divine Name and Image.

Perhaps this is where we can start to understand each others positions. My suggestion is that for these people, of whatever faith (anyone that would assist in killing their own people) desecration of the Divine Name is not an issue. They are motivated by greed, power and for some even a sick twisted belief that G-d wants this. That is no more representative of your faith than bin ladin is of mine. Discussions about faith are about G-d, about praying, about arks, about Scriptures, etc not about land grabbing or terrorists or collaboration. Hitler did not kill Jews because of the way they pray, or what the Torah says, he killed them as a race of people he believed had inferior blood, as he killed homosexuals, gypsies, etc. What makes it really sick is that he wanted to create an 'Aryan' race and that word comes from Persia I believe and refers to people from the southern med (oops people with inferior blood).

Originally Posted by bananabrain

as for these people who were supposedly in the israeli government, nobody has named any as far as i know. in any case, no sources *from a reputable historian* have been cited. i am so fed up of this discussion you wouldn't believe.

Nobody is forcing you to answer BB.

Kastner was the spokesman for the ministry of trade & industry in 1952. When a Hungarian Jew accused him of being a collaborator the Israeli government sued his accuser for libel (does beg the question why did the government sue a holocaust survivor for libel). A woman who's daughter died in the camps gave evidence at the trial against Kastner. The trial took 2 years and the trial judge aquitted the accuser and said:

The Nazis' patronage of Kastner, and their agreement to let him save six hundred prominent Jews, were part of the plan to exterminate the Jews. Kastner was given a chance to add a few more to that number. The bait attracted him. The opportunity of rescuing prominent people appealed to him greatly. He considered the rescue of the most important Jews as a great personal success and a success for Zionism. It was a success that would also justify his conduct - his political negotiation with Nazis and the Nazi patronage of his committee. When Kastner received this present from the Nazis, Kastner sold his soul to the German Satan.

Litrally overnight, the Israeli government decided to appeal the libel case.

I am delighted to report that a holocaust survivor killed Kastner in Israel.

A year after Kastners death the Supreme Court of Israel decided to overturn the judgements against him (now that is a propaganda machine in action for you imo).

Salaam
MW

[bob x]

I think that is the crux of the matter BB, nobody is suggested they were involved just 'because' they were Jews. It happens to be that they were involved with x & y and they were Jewish or had some Jewish parentage.

No, in most of the cases cited it happens not to be true at all.

oh, come on, MW. i'm supposed to waste my time looking for websites that refute something that's obviously bollocks
Well I would have thought the whole point is that some of us do not think it is testicles (regarding Nazi's with Jewish parentage).

Since you are motivated to look for Jews to point your fingers at, your reaction to this kind of bollocks is automatic belief. My experience, like BB's, is that it is a waste of time to talk to people who do not have a BS detector.

all you have come up with so far is david irving,
Oh wow BB you remembered that name from the other thread but none of the other names I mentioned - hmm selective memory syndrome?

Any book which is commended by David Irving, I would expect to be filled with distortion and outright lies. If I told you I had a great book for you to read on the history of the Palestinians, which Ariel Sharon really loved, how much of a hurry would you be in to read it?

Okay let us look at Kastner he was 100% Jewish by heritage and by faith - would you agree?

He is one of the 20 or 30 cases of actual Jewish collaborators that we have acknowledged. You are trying to justify your endorsement of Tao's position that Jews were so prominent in the Nazi regime that they were perhaps orchestrating the whole Holocaust (either that or you are trying to get us to forget that that was what you originally said). The existence of a few collaborators is very far apart from the grand conspiracy theory, so you want to plug the gap by citing these dubious books making claims that a whole bunch of others had Jewish ancestry: but in the cases we can easily check, that claim isn't even true, so why should we waste our times checking up on the others?

1. the suggestion that somehow jews were motivated by judaism to facilitate the holocaust
That has never been suggested.

It most certainly has been.

2. the suggestion that we had nearly half our own population WIPED OUT to facilitate the creation of israel
I would certainly not suggest this but ...

Couldn't you have just stopped without the "but"?

[Muslimwoman]

If you can't add anything useful or constructive to the discussion other than flat denials and snide remarks I would suggest you don't bother wearing your keyboard out.

[Muslimwoman]

Bob

so you can shut up about the unfortunate link to David Irvings site, you can see reviews of the book I refered to here - at the holocaust teacher resource centre website:

Hitler's Jewish Soldiers by Bryan Mark Rigg

The author, an historian, studied at the Ohr Sameach Yeshiva in Jerusalem while he was researching - I don't think they accept neo-Nazi's there.

also here are some reviews of one of his books (I used the reviews of this book to demonstrate that the author is not in any way anti-semetic please note a majority of the people reviewing are Jewish (or are they the wrong group of Jews for your liking?):

Independant Reviews:
Rescued from the Reich
How One of Hitler’s Soldiers Saved the Lubavitcher Rebbe
By Bryan Mark Rigg

“The pious will surely see in the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s rescue the hand of God, and view the German emissaries who rescued him, led by a man of mixed Jewish ancestry, as angels masquerading as devils. But historian Bryan Rigg has a very different story to tell. Part detective story, part mystery. It is a story of diplomacy and intelligence work, suspicions and mortal danger, soldiers and civilians mobilized to rescue one prominent Jew and his family from the heart of German-occupied Warsaw in the midst of the Holocaust.”
Michael Berenbaum, Professor of Theology, The University of Judaism

“A revealing look at the intricacies of diplomatic maneuverings and the complex, sometimes contradictory motivations of human actors. He treats American Jewry's failure to save more of their European brethren with the same care he uses to outline the cracks in the Nazi military machine that permitted men of conscience to act righteously, albeit at great personal risk.”
Sue Fishkoff, author of The Rebbe's Army: Inside the World of Chabad-Lubavitch

“Rigg is a master story teller and he is able to convey seamlessly the complexities involved in snatching the Rebbe from the jaws of the Nazis. The most impressive aspect of this assiduously researched book is the author's obvious commitment to documenting the true facts of the rescue mission.”
Milton Kramer, President of Chabad's National Committee for the Furtherance of Jewish Education

“Rigg shows how political lobbying, bureaucratic opportunism, and the vagaries of Nazi administrative and racial policies enabled the Rebbe's rescue from wartime Poland. A bizarre story, well told.”
Donald L. Niewyk, Southern Methodist University

“Well-researched, unfailingly interesting, and lucidly written. It is remarkable that someone from outside Chabad has been able to write an inside story of Lubavitch?and to do it so well.”
Professor Henry L. Feingold, author of The Politics of Rescue: The Roosevelt Administration and the Holocaust, 1938-1945.

“Rigg's innovative research reveals astonishing inconsistencies in the conduct of American foreign policy, deepens the mysteries surrounding the incongruous behavior of Hitler's spymaster, Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, and raises troubling questions about the subsequent reluctance of Jewish organizations, most notably Schneersohn and his Lubavitchers, to agitate for the rescue of their coreligionists in Hitler's Europe.”
Evan Bukey, author of Hitler’s Austria

“A thrilling tale of the rescue of the Lubavitcher Rebbe as told by a master historian, after many years of great research. We all owe a debt of gratitude to Bryan Rigg for his masterful telling of the rescue of the Lubavitcher Rebbe from Poland in World War II.”
Rabbi David Edelman, Lubavitcher Yeshiva Academy

“In Rescued from the Reich, Professor Rigg explains the miraculous rescue of one of the world's most dynamic and influential rabbis. Combining historical analysis and investigative journalism, Rigg explores the mechanics of the German, Russian, and American political intrigue during World War II. The extent of diplomacy, political machinations and cooperation between warring nations during one of the most calamitous periods of history in order to save the life of a rabbi is astounding.”
Dr. M. Avrum Ehrlich of Clare Hall, Cambridge University

“A fascinating, well-researched book involving Hasidic history and the Holocaust. Bryan Rigg brings to life an important story of Jewish survival and rescue that has too long remained obscure.”
Edward Hoffman, author The Hebrew Alphabet: A Mystical Journey and Despite All Odds: The Story of Lubavitch

“Rescued from the Reich is a first-rate piece of detective work. Bryan Rigg recounts in vivid detail the moral complexity of Rebbe Schneersohn's rescue from the Nazis. An excellent book.”
Alexander B. Rossino, author of Hitler Strikes Poland: Blitzkrieg, Ideology and Atrocity

“A meticulously researched book….It delineates the primary mission [Schneersohn] set for his followers to strengthen Jewish observance in the US even while the Holocaust was raging in Europe.”
Rabbi Alex Weisfogel, secretary of Rabbi Avraham Kalmanowitz of the Orthodox Rescue Organization Vaad-Hatzala

“Without Bryan Rigg's unfailing perseverance the entire story would have been lost.”
Dr. Martin Bloch, son of the rescuer of Rebbe Schneersohn, Major Ernst Bloch

“A fascinating book which not only sheds light on a chapter of Lubavitch Hasidism but also adds to our knowledge of the tragic period of the Jewish people during the Holocaust. Professor Rigg has proved again that he is an excellent historian and a skillful writer.”
Dr. Bernard Klein, Professor and Chairman Department of History, Kingsborough Community College, City University of New York

[bob x]

I would suggest you don't bother wearing your keyboard out.

When I told you I would prefer not even to talk to Tao, you lambasted me for that, too.

so you can shut up about the unfortunate link to David Irvings site, you can see reviews of the book I refered to here - at the holocaust teacher resource centre website

Whatever.
What is your point, anyway? Do you think that you have justified your endorsement of the position that prominent Jews were orchestrating the Holocaust? Or are you just wanting to divert the discussion off somewhere else, anywhere, except the title of the thread?

[Tao_Equus]

Bob,

Just because you call yourself a garden gnome or an accountant does not mean that this is the impression of you I gather in from reading your drivel. It may suit your mindset to label me as anything you like but lets face it you do take a very republichrist approach. Like the Bush administration with the democratically elected government of Palestine. Non dialogue and half-witted slurs against me may make you feel good.....maybe all is not lost... perhaps I made your day !!! Carry on with you denial of anything your conspiracy theory does not like, I know who I am warts, bollocks and all.... and I feel pretty sure in that regard I am one up on you.


Tao

[bob x]

lets face it you do take a very republichrist approach

No I do not. I despise fundamentalist Christians in the exact same manner and for the same reasons that I despise fundamentalist Muslims. If you cannot grasp that point, you do not understand the least thing about me.

Carry on with you denial of anything your conspiracy theory does not like

I have not advanced any "conspiracy theory".

I know who I am warts, bollocks and all....

Of course, you know yourself better than I do: I cannot lay claim to telepathy. I can only go by what you have chosen to post here, which is all ballocks.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by bob x

No I do not. I despise fundamentalist Christians in the exact same manner and for the same reasons that I despise fundamentalist Muslims. If you cannot grasp that point, you do not understand the least thing about me.

Maybe, but seems to me what you really despise most of all is anyone who suggests something you do not agree with. And you are more than willing to denigrate rather rationalise. MW is not a radical Muslim and I am not a "conspiracy theorist"..whatever that may be.

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