Hadith

[GTv13]

To tell you the truth never read much about the science of the Hadith,I kinder went over the subject very quick,still dont understand why is it called science of the Hadith.
But I did note somewhere that umm..befor they proclaim the Hadith as 100% truth they make sure that the people who originaly told the Hadith never lied, now that is usualy many generations of people.I just dont buy it,there is no way anybody can make sure somebody never lied,not to mention the people who were dead.
The Hadith started to be collected 200 years later after Prophet Muhammed death,peace be upon him,and his closest followers never wrote any of his sayings.Only when his closet follower one of the best Muslims at the time died ,did the Hadith started to be writen.
So 200 years later people started collecting all the Hadith and started writing it,as well they had to make sure they did not wrote, I mean proclaim any of the false Hadith as authentic,which is just not possible.
Lets face it we all know how people sayings can easly change from person to person,so if most say the truth few could change it slightly which would result corruption.
Some guy who calls himself a Scholler does not have the knowlege to know for sure whats the absolut truth and what has been changed.

To your question, I did not ment just the companions who were at the time with Prophet Muhammed but all the people who are given the credit for the Hadith, its usually two or more persons, obviosly,sience none of the Hadith has been writen at the time of Prophet Muhammed,for a reason.
But than again I did say it bad,I mean I could have said it better in first place.
You have to remember that most of the Prophet Muhammed companions were not always Muslims,as we know not all belived in Prophet Muhammed at first but later they became one of the best Muslims like Ali.
Anyway as we know everybody lies but not everybody makes up big lies,maybe some people dont lie at all I duno,but most do tho.So even if the companions of Prophet Muhammed did not ever lie as Muslims,not even told any small lies ,but they could have befor they became Muslim,but now I dont know this for sure,but it is fair to say that some have if very few,after all we are humans,we are not perfect.
I would say the Prophet Muhammed companions were his closest followers at the time,so thats what I think companions would mean.
But now most of his Hadith dont come from his closest companions but the people who just saw,heard, Prophet Muhammed speak once or few times,even those who were not real Muslims but made up lies against Prophet Muhammed.
So many people have been telling Prophet Muhammed Hadits after his death,peace be upon him, and not all were true,if not most.
That is the reason why we should not follow Hadith but the Quran alone,I mean after all why guess when we dont have to.After all Hadith are history and we all know people can change history as being different than it really was,specialy history befor the video age,even know when we watch some people on camera telling us this is what happend in ww2 we still dont know for sure if they are 100%truthfull.
peace.

[GTv13]

whatever this site dont work very well with firefox,all my typing just got waisted after my usual long explenation,bah...
But anyway I'll just say this no I did not mean just the companions who were with Prophet Muhammed,but I ment the hole generation of people who brought us the Hadith and who get credits for it.
I did say it wrong tho,of course all the people who lived after Prophet Muhammed who never been with Prophet Muhammed for a longer period of time are not his companions.
Anyway did any of Prophet Muhammed companions ever lied I dont know for sure,but it be fair to say that some have,maybe they did not tell any big lies but they could have told some not so big lies,after all we are human beings, we are not perfect.As well I have to point out not all the companions were Muslims,obviosly, befor Prophet Muhammed Message most of them werent,even when Prophet Muhammmed proclaimed that he was a Messenger not all belived at first like Ali but later he became one of the best Muslims,he got the name Sword of Allah as far as I know.
peace.
oh I was wrong but I leve it as it is.

[GTv13]

whilst i personally believe that there are multiple interpretations of islamic law, i also believe this is not a barrier to islamic unity; i would be interested to hear about any frameworks in which these positions can be reconciled, whether it's in terms of tariqas within a greater shari'a of whether it can be done as we do it in judaism, by distinguishing between normative practice and that of the "pious" who wish to go lifnim min'shurat ha-deen (beyond the strict requirements), which is a concept i would be surprised not to encounter within islam.

I guess we all know there are multiple interpretation of Islamic law, since every sect is a little different.But that is because of the man made books, I mean Hadith.If all the Muslims where following just the Quran than there would be no room for any sects nor could anybody differ in religion in any way.
In truth it is a barrier to Islamic unity, no people can unite if they differ on the issue ,just not possible,people can live togheter in peace but that dont make them united in religion.
You mention "greater shari'a" you right, there is Greater Law and thats the Quran,in fact is the only religous law.
People have no right to change the religious laws,we have to accept that what God Almighty has prescribed for us if we wish to be true belivers.
It is simple, in fact it always has been simple, but people have the urge to change the religion in some way or other and some even make the religion harder than it should be.
One does not really becomes a better beliver if they punish themself not at all,God tells us he made our religion easy for us,God does not want any hardship on us.
Jews and Christen are no different, but lets face it we are all people and we all have the same fealings, we all want to be right and do things our way.
How many different sects are there in Christanity, Jews also differ in there beliefs.Somtime I wonder,most the time, why do people cant understand the simplest of things.I mean why would anybody want a god that is human or that lives in the see and so on,is it not simple to understand that the best God is the One Who created all this,the One Who does not die nor can anybody do anything with out His will.But it is not really that people cant understand it, its that they refuse to belive in there Creator.
The Jews have replaced the Torah pretty much ,God's Book with the talmud for no reason except wanting to change that which God has sent down to them.
We are all the same, but in the end only one belief will be the right belief and thats submission to God, the One and Only, the Creator of everything that exist and the only One Who can help us or punish us,everything good is with God.
Now dont think Im atacking you in any way Im just saying what I think,why are people geting lost and what I think is right.
I think everybody has that right unless they are talking with disrespect to someones religion specialy the religions that belive in one God.
peace.

[thipps]

Originally Posted by GTv13

To tell you the truth never read much about the science of the Hadith

Thats the problem. You dont know what you are talking about. you have not read and, thus, have not understood the great effort put in to authenticating the Sunnah.

As well I have to point out not all the companions were Muslims,obviosly, befor Prophet Muhammed Message most of them werent,even when Prophet Muhammmed proclaimed that he was a Messenger not all belived at first like Ali but later he became one of the best Muslims,he got the name Sword of Allah as far as I know.

If you think you have made some sort of point, i dont see it. We are talking about muslims here, i dont know why you are talking about the past of these people when they werent even Muslim.

The Hadith started to be collected 200 years later after Prophet Muhammed death,peace be upon him,and his closest followers never wrote any of his sayings.Only when his closet follower one of the best Muslims at the time died ,did the Hadith started to be writen.
So 200 years later people started collecting all the Hadith and started writing it,as well they had to make sure they did not wrote, I mean proclaim any of the false Hadith as authentic,which is just not possible.

Again, not correct on both counts. You obvioulsy dont know when the hadith were first written. You have made so many accusations already with nothing to back it up. So, im not going to detail every single thing here. Regarding your first incorrect statement, I'll just point you to the following websites:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/hadith.html

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/exisnad.html

At this point, it is assumed that you have read the content of the above two links. Read them and please try to understand that you are incorrect in your understanding.
Regarding your saying "his closest followers never wrote any of his sayings..." again, i beg to differ. I give you a sample.

Narrated by Abdullah ibn Amr ibn Al`As:
I used to write everything which I heard from the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him). I intended (by it) to memorise it. The Quraysh prohibited me saying: Do you write everything that you hear from him while the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) is a human being: he speaks in anger and pleasure?
So I stopped writing, and mentioned it to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him). He signalled with his finger to his mouth and said: Write, by Him in Whose hand my soul lies, only right comes out from it. [Abu-Dawud, hadith # 3639]

For the sake of brevity, I have not quoted others (rest assured that there are). This mere sample is enough to falsify your claim. I mention this second hadith to show you something else...
Narrated Abu Huraira:
There is none among the companions of the Prophet who has narrated more Hadiths than I except 'Abdallah bin Amr (bin Al-'As) who used to write them and I never did the same. [Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol. 1, Hadith # 113]

As a side note regarding hadith authentication methods (in science of hadith), you should note from the above two that these are two different companions of the Prophet(pbuh), two different chains of narrators, two different authors of two different collections(Bukhari and Abu-Dawud) in which a narration agrees with one another. Hope this gives you food for thought.
Something else of note. The Prophet(pbuh) warned us of your type in an authentic narration in which he(pbuh) said,"Indeed, I have been granted the Qur'an and something similar to it. A time will come when a man will be reclining upon his couch saying,"Stick to this Qur'an.So whatever you find within it as being lawful, then take it as being lawful. And whatever you find within it as being unlawful, then take it as being unlawful.""[1] The fact that you are here and saying exactly what he(pbuh) warned us against, should tell you (and people in the peanut gallery) something.
Allaah says in the Qur'an (the translation of the meaning of which is):
And whoever contradicts and opposes the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) after the right path has been shown clearly to him, and follows other than the believers' way. We shall keep him in the path he has chosen, and burn him in Hell - what an evil destination. [Qur’an 4:115]
Allaah has ordered that matters be referred back to Him and His Messenger when there is a disagreement and difference, so that the final judgement is that of the Qur'an and the Sunnah. He says:

O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger and those of you who are in authority. If you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allaah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination. [4:59]

This aayah explains that disputes and unknown matters are to be referred back to the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of His Messenger (pbuh) so that the Muslims settle their disputes with them. This being a sign of truthfulness and the proof of Eemaan [faith]; while he who does not refer back in judgment to the Book and the Sunnah in disputes and take judgment from them then he is not a believer in Allaah and the Last Day. Perhaps the clearest proof of this great matter which is counted as the crux of Eeman is His saying,
But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith until they make you judge in all disputes between them and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions and accept (them) with full submission. [4:65]
Ibn Katheer commented upon this verse as follows:
"Just this earth-rendering oath is sufficient to cause the mountains to fall to the ground and for the believer's jugular vein to tremble in terror and his limbs to shake with fear and for the hearts to rise to the throats and the eyes to roll up in their sockets. The Most Just of all judges has sworn by Himself that no one believes until he makes the Messenger (pbuh) judge in all affairs. So whatever judgment he has passed then it is obligatory to submit to it, outwardly and inwardly, since it is the truth and what is there besides the truth except misguidance" [tafseer Qur'aanil-'Adheem (4/85-86)]

That is the reason why we should not follow Hadith but the Quran alone,I mean after all why guess when we dont have to.

Most of what you said was repetition but, after having a look at that website of yours where this big number game was being played to calculate the answers to my questions, i'm surprised that you claim that you use "common sense" and that you don't follow guesses. There is no where in the Qur'an that tells you to play this number game and follow this strategy to know things. The Qur'an keeps telling you to obey Allah and his Messenger, and all you can think of is to come up with this numbers business.

But anyway I'll just say this no I did not mean just the companions who were with Prophet Muhammed,but I ment the hole generation of people who brought us the Hadith and who get credits for it.

That is even worse and i'll tell you below why.

Anyway did any of Prophet Muhammed companions ever lied I dont know for sure,but it be fair to say that some have,maybe they did not tell any big lies but they could have told some not so big lies,after all we are human beings, we are not perfect.

Ignoring the fact that you consider pretty much everyone untrustworthy, since this is a small thing considering that you also include the Companions of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in them as well!! May Allaah protect us all from such thoughts. According to you, not only are the Companions (May Allaah be pleased with them) of Allaah’s Messenger(pbuh) capable of lying but they would do so in regards to Allaah’s Messenger(pbuh)!!!
The meaning of this doubt and attack is that all reliable narrators from the amongst salafus-saalih [2] were untrustworthy liars. it necessitates accusing them of either telling lies and misleading the people or of ignorance. Indeed, Allaah rescued them from these things and they knew the reality of the statement of the Messenger of Allaah(pbuh) "Whoever lies upon me deliberately, then let him take his seat in the Fire" [3]
In the end, the most gravest of matters;did not Allaah, the All-Knowing, say:
And the first to lead the way, of the Muhajirin and the Ansar, and those who followed them in goodness - Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him, and He hath made ready for them Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide for ever. That is the supreme triumph. [Qur’an 9:100]
You consider untrustworthy and capable of lies (and that too against the Messenger of Allaah(pbuh)) those regarding whom Allaah testified Himself that He was well pleased with!!?? Didnt Allaah know that these people would invent lies against His Messenger(pbuh)?? How can you claim that Allaah is well pleased with liers and that too of such a nature?!! You erroneously claim that you follow the Qur'anic teachings. Not only have you admitted that you possess no knowledge/understanding of matters of hadith but you have also demonstrated that you have less than that regarding the Qur'an.
At this point, I see no reason to continue this discussion especially in light of the fact that you have not only insulted the Companions(May Allaah be pleased with them) of Allaah's Messenger(pbuh), but that you have also invented a lie again Allaah, The Mighty and Magestic. And I seek refuge with Allaah from that!
You have crossed the line. This I cannot allow to go on anymore.
No doubt the best speech is the Book of Allaah and the best of guidance is the guidance of Mohammad(pbuh).
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[1] Sahih: Related by Abu Dawud and Tirmidhi.
[2] the people of the first 3 generations of Muslims about whom Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) said that they were the best of the people
[3] Authenticated by Sh. Albaani. He recorded 63 different routes for it!!! 63! This is a mutawatir hadith which means it is one which is reported by such a large number of people that they cannot be expected to agree upon a lie, all of them together. (Gtv13 dont forget the relevant example on that 2nd link)