Hadith

[GTv13]

I wont waste time trying to show you how 'my people' can refer to the unbelieving Quraish. Why? cause as far as i can see, you are contradicting your first explanation of 'my people'. First you said it referred to the Muslims. Now, you say that it doesnt mean just the Quraish implying that 'my people' are muslims plus non-muslims.

For the record this is what I originaly said:
As we can see Prophat Muhammed will say my people have deserted the Quran he doesnt mention any Hadith.By the way his people are the Muslims as far as I understand.
Im not contradicting my first explenation.
Here is what I said:Now there is just no way, anyone can claim that Prophet Muhammed will mean just the Quraish when he says my own people,or my people.
It is not implying that his people are muslims plus on-muslims.
Why are you arguing if you dont want to prove your point,makes no sense.
Dont say this is what it means and just expect people to belive you,if you want people to belive you prove your point, only than is fair.
peace.

[thipps]

Originally Posted by GTv13

For the record this is what I originaly said:
As we can see Prophat Muhammed will say my people have deserted the Quran he doesnt mention any Hadith.By the way his people are the Muslims as far as I understand.
Im not contradicting my first explenation.
Here is what I said:Now there is just no way, anyone can claim that Prophet Muhammed will mean just the Quraish when he says my own people,or my people.
It is not implying that his people are muslims plus on-muslims.
Why are you arguing if you dont want to prove your point,makes no sense.
Dont say this is what it means and just expect people to belive you,if you want people to belive you prove your point, only than is fair.
peace.

Then, just like that, ther is no way, anyone can claim that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) meant only the Muslims either cause the unbelieving Quraish did treat the Quran as the verse says. Oh and btw, by saying "as far as I understand." you are admitting that your methodology of interpreting the Qur'an is purely personal which is a sure shot formula for disaster and disunity as every person is unique and has thier own way of thinking.
Your accusing me of not proving my point as if you have. You first.
and another thing, you obviously use translations, and dont know arabic as a language. so you should also know that without the Sunnah, you cant understand alot of verses. Therefore, ignoring the hadith will land you in big trouble as far as intepretations go.
regards,
thipps

[PluckyAli]

Bad exampels,comparing world war 1 and 2 with the Hadith dont make any sense.Millions of people have no way of knowing which Hadith is 100% authentic as you saying.Most Hadith come from one /two persons,or more.So you me or anybody else exept for those people who brought us the Hadith have no way of knowing if what they tell us is 100% true or not.
So millions of people who are following the Hadith are following the books of those who wrote the Hadith.So one has to put his trust in those people if one follows the Hadith.Of course we all can guess and feel what Hadith is right and which is not but thats not the same as knowing it for sure.

I hope you didnot misunderstand me.What i was trying to say is there is no one or a very few people who will deny ww1 and ww2,so if we count it's probablity it's very high,indcating the event surely occured.If millions of people are saying some hadith is authentic and there are few or no one who says the hadith is not authentic and then if we count it's chance then we can decide the probabiltiy of a particular hadith being authentic is high.Ofcourse it's just a probability it's not a proof of anything.

Millions of People belive in trinity but that dont make them right.

Good q.Millions of people surely believe in trinity but at the same time millions of people deny trinity,keeping this in mind,if we count their probability it will come 50/50,so nothing can be said about it.

Where did I ask this question, please let me know I dont know where?Well I know where you got this question from but trully if you can think clearly you should know that is not what I ment

Where did i tell you,you asked this q?,show me where and i will be very thankful to you.

you changed my question, WHY?.???

Show me where?

Its just not fair.

right.it's just unfair to accuse others.right?

But those verses that say obey Alllah and obey the messenger was directed at the people at the time of Prophet Muhammed

That is to say you misunderstood the basics of Islam.how you knew it was directed at the people of that time,there is no way of knowing particular verse is for people of that age or this age,so what i am trying to say is everyone who dislikes some verse can say that verse is for the period of that time or this time.

Remember most people did not belive at first at the time of Prophet Muhamed that is why God is telling them to obey Prophet Muhammed and that he is indeed speaking the truth.

Good.So can you let us know how you knew that some people did not believe at first at the time of prophet muhammad.

But again look obeying or following Prophet Muhammed the person is impossible for anybody right now,dont you agree.I cant see how one couldnt agree.

look again your not understanding things.If something of some religion cant be applied at some time,then that religion is fake.

H

ow am I contradicting myself,go ahead you can explain.

i think i have explained it before very clearly.what my point is if your saying this
" we can follow or obey Prophet Muhammed Message the Quran.Thats not contradicting".
then u said
"As I said befor we can not obey Prophet Muhammed because he has died,peace be upon him."
then in ur newest message you said
"Again as I said many times befor we can follow or obey Prophet Muhammed Message the Quran.Thats not contradicting."

I don't know how should i explain that simple thing to you.every muslims know quran is God's message not muhammad message.

p.ali

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by PluckyAli

I don't know how should i explain that simple thing to you.every muslims know quran is God's message not muhammad message.
p.ali

I think one can be confused by the "voice" which Muhammed, the Apostle, is using at any given time in the Qur'an.

Sometimes the Voice of God is obviously the voice of God.

Sometimes it is the voice of the Apostle giving us the "gist" of God's instruction.

Sometimes God is speaking directly to the Apostle and His words are meant to apply to the Apostle first, the believers being secondary in that instance.

Sometimes the voice of the Apostle is direct speaking to His companions.

The Revelation is always from God.

This is true of the Torah, the Evangels, of every part of the "Book".

Regards,
Scott

[GTv13]

Where did i tell you,you asked this q?,show me where and i will be very thankful to you.

OK,maybe Im wrong,if I am, Im sorry,but I kinder got the impression that you responded to this question, I asked:
Or what do you mean by following Prophet Muhammed.
Than you asked yourself this question:
And why should we follow prophet muhammad ?.
Well I never put the question that way.
Anyway can you answer my question,what do you mean by following Prophet Muhammed?

Your accusing me of not proving my point as if you have. You first.
and another thing, you obviously use translations, and dont know arabic as a language. so you should also know that without the Sunnah, you cant understand alot of verses.

Whats your point are you saying that everybody has to speak Arabic to understand the Quran.Do the verses have a different meaning in Arabic?
Let me know please which verses need the Sunnah so that we can understand it???

I hope you didnot misunderstand me.What i was trying to say is there is no one or a very few people who will deny ww1 and ww2,so if we count it's probablity it's very high,indcating the event surely occured.If millions of people are saying some hadith is authentic and there are few or no one who says the hadith is not authentic and then if we count it's chance then we can decide the probabiltiy of a particular hadith being authentic is high.Ofcourse it's just a probability it's not a proof of anything.

Nobody can deny ww1 and 2,you right, we have it on tape,it did occur.
But millions of people just follow the Hadith they have no way of knowing if the Hadith they follow are 100% true.If those millions of people tell me all the Hadith they follow, they know are 100% true,than those people are high on something.
There is no way anybody can say for sure this Hadith is authentic.Only the people who heard Prophet Muhammed sayings can know for sure.

That is to say you misunderstood the basics of Islam.how you knew it was directed at the people of that time,there is no way of knowing particular verse is for people of that age or this age,so what i am trying to say is everyone who dislikes some verse can say that verse is for the period of that time or this time.

Common sense,thats all I have to say,the way the verse is being told.

So can you let us know how you knew that some people did not believe at first at the time of prophet muhammad.

History as well Quran mentions it,all the Hadith and Sunnah are history...

look again your not understanding things.If something of some religion cant be applied at some time,then that religion is fake.

I dont know what you mean, you can go ahead and explain it to me.
But if you saying that all the verses are directed to all the people at any time than you wrong.When the Quran was first reveald people did not understand all the verses in it,because not all the verses where directed at them.Remember we needed the technology to understand some verses in the Quran fully.

I don't know how should i explain that simple thing to you.every muslims know quran is God's message not muhammad message.

You right the Quran is God's Message to us,I never ment the Quran is from Prophet Muhammed,maybe I wasnt very clear.
042.048
YUSUFALI: If then they run away, We have not sent thee as a guard over them. Thy duty is but to convey (the Message). And truly, when We give man a taste of a Mercy from Ourselves, he doth exult thereat, but when some ill happens to him, on account of the deeds which his hands have sent forth, truly then is man ungrateful!
As we can see in the verse above Prophet Muhammed duty was to deliver the Message.So when I said the Quran is the only Message Prophet Muhammed left us I didnt/I dont mean the Quran is from Prophet Muhammed.What I mean is the Only God's Message Prophet Muhammed left us.Prophet Muhammed was God's Messenger and the Message he left us is the Quran.Again when I said Prophet Muhammed Message,I ment the Message God the Almighty revaled to Prophet Muhammed,God gave the Message,the Quran to Prophet Muhammed so he can deliver it to us.
peace.

[thipps]

Originally Posted by GTv13

Whats your point are you saying that everybody has to speak Arabic to understand the Quran.Do the verses have a different meaning in Arabic?
Let me know please which verses need the Sunnah so that we can understand it???

GTv13, are you going to tell me and everyone here that each word in arabic has only one meaning? A word can have many meanings. Why choose one over the other? but we can get to that once you have proven your point, which you havent. And uve ignored the rest of what I said. I find your methodology for interpretation of the Qur'an difficult to accept as its based on personal interpretation as i explained before. Every other person will be coming with his/her own interpretation. This is following your personal desire and I hope i dont need to explain what happens when we follow that. Where does that leave us? and interestingly you say that you understand things because of:

Common sense,thats all I have to say,the way the verse is being told.

Obviously its not making sense to other people on this forum. I reiterate again that what makes sense to you will not necessarily make sense to everyone else. Your proving my point again as far as i am concerned.

History as well Quran mentions it,all the Hadith and Sunnah are history...

Even though you were speaking to PluckyAli, i cant help it notice that the same thing that you consider unreliable (the hadith and Sunnah), you are quoting as evidence for your statement. you are going around in circles.
Hope this gives you food for thought
thipps.

[GTv13]

GTv13, are you going to tell me and everyone here that each word in arabic has only one meaning? A word can have many meanings. Why choose one over the other?

I never said that each word in Arabic has only one meaning.Every language has words that can have more than one meaning some more than others.
I dont even get it why I have to answer this to you,but well you asked the brilliant question.

but we can get to that once you have proven your point, which you havent. And uve ignored the rest of what I said. I find your methodology for interpretation of the Qur'an difficult to accept as its based on personal interpretation as i explained before.

Do me a favor let me know exactly what you want me to prove to you,maybe if you go back and think about it you'll understand what I ment in the first place.I love it how you say my own interpretation,my own interpretation is my comment below the verse,again please go back and look at my post and my comment below the verse and you'll see that there is nothinng wrong with it,if there is lett me know I'll deffinetly correct it,the reason why I said as far as I understand is because I was leting you know that it was my own opinion and that Im not 100% sure it ment that,and it also ment you should not belive in it but you should think for yourself,as well if you have a better explenation of the verse,I mean the word,my people, you could let me know.But you didnt.You said it ment the Quraish,if thats true than thats very few people.
Now the reason I did not answer to you at first was because I did not see a reason to answer because you should have understood it in the first place.I dont get it why do you pick on self explenatory comments.

Every other person will be coming with his/her own interpretation. This is following your personal desire and I hope i dont need to explain what happens when we follow that

Im not sure what you talkin about,nobody can make the verse say what they want and Im not sure where you get the idea that Im trying to make the verse say what I want,its all in your mind.

Where does that leave us? and interestingly you say that you understand things because of:
Quote:
Common sense,thats all I have to say,the way the verse is being told.

Obviously its not making sense to other people on this forum. I reiterate again that what makes sense to you will not necessarily make sense to everyone else. Your proving my point again as far as i am concerned.

Dude you asked me this:

That is to say you misunderstood the basics of Islam.how you knew it was directed at the people of that time,there is no way of knowing particular verse is for people of that age or this age,so what i am trying to say is everyone who dislikes some verse can say that verse is for the period of that time or this time.

49:2. O ye who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor speak aloud to him in talk, as ye may speak aloud to one another, lest your deeds become vain and ye perceive not. 49:3. Those that lower their voices in the presence of Allah's Messenger,- their hearts has Allah tested for piety: for them is Forgiveness and a great Reward. "
Common sense tells us that the verse above is directed at the people at the time when Prophet Muhammed was alive,peace be upon him.You know how we can know that?Well simply because we can not speak to Prophet Muhammed,which means we can not raise our voices by speaking to him, Prophet Muhammed is not with us that is why we can not speak to him.Im not saying that the verse is not directed to us just because I want it to be so,but Im saying it because is the truth.All the verses that say obey Prophet Muhammed is also not directed to us because we can not obey Prophet Muhammed, because he has died,peace be upon him.

Even though you were speaking to PluckyAli, i cant help it notice that the same thing that you consider unreliable (the hadith and Sunnah), you are quoting as evidence for your statement. you are going around in circles.
Hope this gives you food for thought

Look, Sunnah,the Hadith is history so I accept it as such,but do I know if everything anybody says happend is true I cant know for sure,is not easy to prove.History tells us about Prophet Muhammed life,as well the Quran,again how acurate is the history I dont know.But asking the question how do we know abot Prophet Muhmmed life is like asking how we know about any other Prophet,again history and the Quran tells us about them.I dont say nor think that all Hadith are false,but some obviosly are.We can not make that be our religious guide, what we are not so sure of,any other religios teaching along side the Quran is not needed,that is what God Almighty tells us in the Quran.
Here are some verses that I posted befor just to remind you.
006.114
YUSUFALI: Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

YUSUFALI: Say: "What thing is most weighty in evidence?" Say: "Allah is witness between me and you; This Qur'an hath been revealed to me by inspiration, that I may warn you and all whom it reaches. Can ye possibly bear witness that besides Allah there is another Allah?" Say: "Nay! I cannot bear witness!" Say: "But in truth He is the one Allah, and I truly am innocent of (your blasphemy of) joining others with Him."

YUSUFALI: These are nothing but names which ye have devised,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah has sent down no authority (whatever). They follow nothing but conjecture and what their own souls desire!- Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord!
All the verses above tell us that we should follow the Quran and nothing else is mentioned.
By the way why did you quote me when you didnt say anything about what I said, I dont get it.Do you understand what I ment in your first quote, in your last post,if not I'll explain.
peace.

[thipps]

Originally Posted by GTv13

I never said that each word in Arabic has only one meaning.Every language has words that can have more than one meaning some more than others.
I dont even get it why I have to answer this to you,but well you asked the brilliant question.

oh you never said it but you implied it alright.go back to where i quoted your text to which i replied. mainly to your saying "Do the verses have a different meaning in Arabic?"

Do me a favor let me know exactly what you want me to prove to you,maybe if you go back and think about it you'll understand what I ment in the first place.I love it how you say my own interpretation,my own interpretation is my comment below the verse,again please go back and look at my post and my comment below the verse and you'll see that there is nothinng wrong with it,if there is lett me know I'll deffinetly correct it,the reason why I said as far as I understand is because I was leting you know that it was my own opinion and that Im not 100% sure it ment that,and it also ment you should not belive in it but you should think for yourself,as well if you have a better explenation of the verse,I mean the word,my people, you could let me know.But you didnt.You said it ment the Quraish,if thats true than thats very few people.

Prove your point.. not just tell us. Anyone here can tell you something.
Yes, it IS your own personal interpretation. You've admitted that yourself. Maybe you havent noticed but the people around you arent clones... everyone is different. They dont think like you do. and again, you prove my point by saying "it was my own opinion ". Thats exactly the problem as i've explained to you twice already.

Now the reason I did not answer to you at first was because I did not see a reason to answer because you should have understood it in the first place.I dont get it why do you pick on self explenatory comments.

You should have understood what you were told too but you didnt, did you?

Common sense tells us that the verse above is directed at the people at the time when Prophet Muhammed was alive,peace be upon him.You know how we can know that?Well simply because we can not speak to Prophet Muhammed,which means we can not raise our voices by speaking to him, Prophet Muhammed is not with us that is why we can not speak to him.Im not saying that the verse is not directed to us just because I want it to be so,but Im saying it because is the truth.All the verses that say obey Prophet Muhammed is also not directed to us because we can not obey Prophet Muhammed, because he has died,peace be upon him.

Maybe english is a problem with you. Your use of common sense was answered. No need to repeat that faulty argument.

Look, Sunnah,the Hadith is history so I accept it as such,but do I know if everything anybody says happend is true I cant know for sure,is not easy to prove.History tells us about Prophet Muhammed life,as well the Quran,again how acurate is the history I dont know.But asking the question how do we know abot Prophet Muhmmed life is like asking how we know about any other Prophet,again history and the Quran tells us about them.I dont say nor think that all Hadith are false,but some obviosly are.We can not make that be our religious guide, what we are not so sure of,any other religios teaching along side the Quran is not needed,that is what God Almighty tells us in the Quran.

So, first you dont reject hadith completely. That means that you again pick and choose the hadith even as you please. Again, following your desire. again, no need to tell you where that can lead.
dear, who said every single 'hadith' is true? don't you know science of hadith?
never heard of ahadith classified as weak or fabricated?

[GTv13]

oh you never said it but you implied it alright.go back to where i quoted your text to which i replied. mainly to your saying "Do the verses have a different meaning in Arabic?"

You right I did ask that question,but as usual you never answer my questions,
And the reason behind the question was the fact that you kept telling me how you knew Arabic and you didnt need any translations,so when I was saying this is what the verse is telling us you kept saying I dont know Arabic,as you do, and so in your opinion I was wrong.So I asked you the simple question, do the verses have different meanig in Arabic in your opinion since you would not accept the translations.

Prove your point.. not just tell us. Anyone here can tell you something.
Yes, it IS your own personal interpretation. You've admitted that yourself. Maybe you havent noticed but the people around you arent clones... everyone is different. They dont think like you do. and again, you prove my point by saying "it was my own opinion ". Thats exactly the problem as i've explained to you twice already.

Dude only the word my people was my own interpretation not the hole verse.I dont get it what you trying to prove.I know people dont think like I do,that is why I didnt say my own people means Muslims for sure,I didnt say Im 100% sure it means that.But I said as far as I understand, it made the most sense to me, that the word my people ment the Muslims,and if somebody has a better explenation of the word then I'll except it.Now rememeber when somebody says someting, than they say As far as I understand it means that,it means that they are not trying to convince anyone what they just said was the truth for sure.But unless you have a better explenation of the word my people or my own people than my interpretation still stands,at least for myself, remember I was never speaking for everybody.
I hope you get it.

Maybe english is a problem with you. Your use of common sense was answered. No need to repeat that faulty argument.

I trully dont have a clue what you saying.You always say things that are unclear as it gets.Please explain your point since you strarted talkin about it.
As you should know you said this:
That is to say you misunderstood the basics of Islam.how you knew it was directed at the people of that time,there is no way of knowing particular verse is for people of that age or this age,so what i am trying to say is everyone who dislikes some verse can say that verse is for the period of that time or this time.
Than in my last post I proved to you how we can know if a verse is directed at us,which makes your point above false.But instead to tell me that I was right you reply with some nonsene,that I dont understand.

So, first you dont reject hadith completely. That means that you again pick and choose the hadith even as you please. Again, following your desire. again, no need to tell you where that can lead.
dear, who said every single 'hadith' is true? don't you know science of hadith?
never heard of ahadith classified as weak or fabricated?

Look its simple we all know the Quran is from God as well we know God Almighty, promised to protect the Quran.Which means if we follow the Quran we wont ever get lost because there is no falshood in it.But if we follow anything else than the Quran than we can easly get lost.God does not like us to seek any other guidence than the Quran.If we use any other book as our religios teaching than that means that the Quran from God the Almighty,is not good enaugh for us,which makes it idol-worship.In the Quran we have everything we need to be Muslims.
Now as I said befor I dont reject all the Sunnah and the Hadith but do I know what Hadith is 100% true, no I dont nor does anybody else,do some Hadith make more sense to me than others and do I think that some hadith are true,yes,but than again I cant say for sure this Hadith is 100% true nor can anyone else,we can only guess,but than again some guesses are better than others..The Hadith and the Sunnah are Prophet Muhammed sayings and his behavor,obviosly every human being and every Prophet befor Prophet Muhammed behaved in a certain way as well they all had sayings.But that dont mean that we have to follow there sayings and behavor,but we all are required to follow there Message from God the Almighty.People managed to change the Bible which is the Book from God, why would you think that Prophet Muhammed Hadith could not be corrupted.Just saying this Hadith is right and we should do what it says,does not make it right.Billions of people belive that the Bible is as it was when God Almighty,sent us the the Bible,Prophet Jesus deliverd us God's Message and Im sure the Bible was pure back than.Now your best argument does not look so good, does it,cuz you keep saying if most people say the Hadith are true, and we should follow it, than it deffinetly is true.
Remember befor Prophet Muhammed there were Muslims and they did not need any Hadith to be good Muslims all they needed was the God's Guidence,God,s Book.
Anyway Hadith and Sunnah is history and I accept it as such,so why have history be our guide when we have the Quran which is not history but it is writen for us just as those befor us it contains verses that deal with this time as well the past,the Quran is timeless which can not be said for the Hadith,history never deals with the future unlike the Quran, nor did Prophet Muhammed knew the future.
Here is an example:
God tells us in the Quran how to do the washing befor prayer,but most Muslims who are following the Sunnah changed it so that we have to do like 7 steps instead of 4 that God tells us.
Now doing more than 4 steps is not requried we all have to accept that because that is what God is telling us is good for us.
We have Sunnah telling us this is how it should be done and on the other side we have the Quran where God tells us how we should do it.
Now which one do you belive is right,well its obvios whatever God tells us is always better than anything else anybody else tells us.
So the conclusion is we only have to wash our faces,arms wipe our head and wash our feet to the ankle.
Anybody who thinks there are more steps that are required is obviosly wrong.
But now if anybody does more steps than required but they know thay dont have to and they accept the way God tells us to do it,than I think one can still do more steps as long as we understnad the fact that it is not required.
That is what I think about the Sunnah,I can accept some of the Sunnah but I'll never accept it as our religios guidence beside the Quran.
God never mentions in the Quran any Prophet Muhammed Sunnah but God only tells us that we were given His Book and so we should follow it.
Sorry the reply is a little long.
peace.

[thipps]

Originally Posted by GTv13

You right I did ask that question,but as usual you never answer my questions,

I know why you wrote it. but you never seem to understand what im saying. Why do you forget what you have said. I quote your text so that you know why im saying something but you never seem to understand anything. What i wrote WAS the answer but you didnt understand it for some reason.
That question about arabic you answered was a rhetorical one. My real question when i said "Why choose one over the other?" but you ignored that. I dont know why you didnt consider that.

And the reason behind the question was the fact that you kept telling me how you knew Arabic and you didnt need any translations,

umm, that was Friend who explicitly said that she knew arabic and didnt need translation. I just said that you didnt know arabic (or do you?).

Dude only the word my people was my own interpretation not the hole verse.I dont get it what you trying to prove.I know people dont think like I do,that is why I didnt say my own people means Muslims for sure,I didnt say Im 100% sure it means that.But I said as far as I understand, it made the most sense to me, that the word my people ment the Muslims,and if somebody has a better explenation of the word then I'll except it.Now rememeber when somebody says someting, than they say As far as I understand it means that,it means that they are not trying to convince anyone what they just said was the truth for sure.But unless you have a better explenation of the word my people or my own people than my interpretation still stands,at least for myself, remember I was never speaking for everybody.
I hope you get it.

Better explanation?? who will decide that its "better"? you? you will decide for all the muslims which is better? If you say no to these questions, then i say to you that we have already decided whats better for us.
And since this is just your opinion, then i say that you've been heard and you have heard us too. Nothing left to say then, is there?

I trully dont have a clue what you saying.You always say things that are unclear as it gets.Please explain your point since you strarted talkin about it.

I say things clearly. You just dont understand since you seem to forget what you have said and for that matter what others have said too. you were the one who mentioned "Common sense" as an argument for proof, remember? Your point about Common sense as a proof doesnt work as i explained before. Just go back to what i said and try to understand.

As you should know you said this:
That is to say you misunderstood the basics of Islam.how you knew it was directed at the people of that time,there is no way of knowing particular verse is for people of that age or this age,so what i am trying to say is everyone who dislikes some verse can say that verse is for the period of that time or this time.

ummm... no, that was Plucky Ali. Only proves what i said just above. try to keep track of who said what.

Than in my last post I proved to you how we can know if a verse is directed at us,which makes your point above false.But instead to tell me that I was right you reply with some nonsene,that I dont understand.

Again, you proved nothing. Your use of "common sense" as proof doesnt hold water. Already explained that. Hope you have something new to say next time.

Now as I said befor I dont reject all the Sunnah and the Hadith but do I know what Hadith is 100% true, no I dont nor does anybody else,do some Hadith make more sense to me than others and do I think that some hadith are true,yes,but than again I cant say for sure this Hadith is 100% true nor can anyone else,we can only guess,but than again some guesses are better than others..

Yet again, you prove my point: Your interpretation is based purely on personal understanding. Explained to you the problem with that.
Oddly enough, you admit that even when you consider some hadith "true", that you're guessing; meaning you're not sure of its authenticity. So, why do you even consider it? Why do you use unreliable information (according to you)? by the way, when some hadith makes "more sense" to you, what do you do with it?

The Hadith and the Sunnah are Prophet Muhammed sayings and his behavor,obviosly every human being and every Prophet befor Prophet Muhammed behaved in a certain way as well they all had sayings.But that dont mean that we have to follow there sayings and behavor,but we all are required to follow there Message from God the Almighty.

It is well-known amond Muslims that when the Qur'an was revealed, it surpeceded all the previous revelations. Once the final messenger was sent, all of humanity must follow him & Allaah will not accept any religion other than Islam. So, no muslim will say that he should follow the Shariah of,say, Moses or Jesus (pbut). So, I dont know where you're getting your information from that makes you make this kind of argument that is not true. And as far as following/obeying the Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) is concerned, just one example:
He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah: But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds). [4:80, Yusuf Ali's Translation]
So, I dont agree with what you have said.

People managed to change the Bible which is the Book from God, why would you think that Prophet Muhammed Hadith could not be corrupted.Just saying this Hadith is right and we should do what it says,does not make it right.

it seems that you like to repeat yourself and you like to make me repeat myself. Read what i wrote before. Never heard of Science of hadith?? classifications of weak and fabricated hadith?? You wrongly state that someone just says that its right. that means you dont know what you are talking about.

Billions of people belive that the Bible is as it was when God Almighty,sent us the the Bible,Prophet Jesus deliverd us God's Message and Im sure the Bible was pure back than.Now your best argument does not look so good, does it,cuz you keep saying if most people say the Hadith are true, and we should follow it, than it deffinetly is true.

I believe that was PluckyAli's argument. I never said any such thing. You should know that in islam, majority is not a proof of truth. I disagree with PluckyAli's method of argument.
I mentioned the science of hadith, the classification of ahadith. I will further mention that there is such a thing as chain of narration involved as well.

Remember befor Prophet Muhammed there were Muslims and they did not need any Hadith to be good Muslims all they needed was the God's Guidence,God,s Book.

thats not correct exactly but ill get to this later if we ever sort this other stuff out. this requires a separate post.

Anyway Hadith and Sunnah is history and I accept it as such,so why have history be our guide when we have the Quran which is not history but it is writen for us just as those befor us it contains verses that deal with this time as well the past,the Quran is timeless which can not be said for the Hadith,history never deals with the future unlike the Quran, nor did Prophet Muhammed knew the future.
Here is an example:
God tells us in the Quran how to do the washing befor prayer,but most Muslims who are following the Sunnah changed it so that we have to do like 7 steps instead of 4 that God tells us.
Now doing more than 4 steps is not requried we all have to accept that because that is what God is telling us is good for us.
We have Sunnah telling us this is how it should be done and on the other side we have the Quran where God tells us how we should do it.
Now which one do you belive is right,well its obvios whatever God tells us is always better than anything else anybody else tells us.
So the conclusion is we only have to wash our faces,arms wipe our head and wash our feet to the ankle.
Anybody who thinks there are more steps that are required is obviosly wrong.
But now if anybody does more steps than required but they know thay dont have to and they accept the way God tells us to do it,than I think one can still do more steps as long as we understnad the fact that it is not required.
That is what I think about the Sunnah,I can accept some of the Sunnah but I'll never accept it as our religios guidence beside the Quran.
God never mentions in the Quran any Prophet Muhammed Sunnah but God only tells us that we were given His Book and so we should follow it.
Sorry the reply is a little long.
peace.

Some of what you have said is somewhat odd but there is way too much here to sort out already. we'll leave this for later. some of what you have said is repetition. You can just read again what you were told by others and we can leave it at that.
i have a few examples/questions of my own for you as im interested in learning how you know the answers to them. I'll ask them in a seperate thread and see what you say.

[GTv13]

My real question when i said "Why choose one over the other?" but you ignored that. I dont know why you didnt consider that.

OK,if you want me to answer that question let me know where did I chose one over the other ,whatever you mean with that.
No I dont no Arabic.

Better explanation?? who will decide that its "better"? you? you will decide for all the muslims which is better?

All I said was the part in the verse my own people,ment Muslims,as far as I understand.I hope for once you understand the comment,I dont want to keep explening myself when its really simple to understand.I was never speaking for all the Muslims but only for myself,we all have the right to speak for ourself,but if you prove me wrong than my interpretation of my people, will no longer be right not even to me,and I'll accept that.But so far someone only said my people ment just the Quraish ,which does not make much sense to me.

Your point about Common sense as a proof doesnt work as i explained before

.Im not sure what you have against common sense.
But I'll say this:common sense tells us that we can not obey Prophet Muhammed now, but we can obey God at anytime.

ummm... no, that was Plucky Ali. Only proves what i said just above. try to keep track of who said what.

OK,my bad, Im sorry,I hope it wont happen again,I was replying to this tho:
Common sense tells us that the verse above is directed at the people at the time when Prophet Muhammed was alive,peace be upon him.You know how we can know that?Well simply because we can not speak to Prophet Muhammed,which means we can not raise our voices by speaking to him, Prophet Muhammed is not with us that is why we can not speak to him.Im not saying that the verse is not directed to us just because I want it to be so,but Im saying it because is the truth.All the verses that say obey Prophet Muhammed is also not directed to us because we can not obey Prophet Muhammed, because he has died,peace be upon him.
You quoted me above than you said this:
Maybe english is a problem with you. Your use of common sense was answered. No need to repeat that faulty argument.
I dont get the answer.

It is well-known amond Muslims that when the Qur'an was revealed, it surpeceded all the previous revelations. Once the final messenger was sent, all of humanity must follow him & Allaah will not accept any religion other than Islam.

The first part of what you said above is right but I cant say the same for the second part.
You dont want to associate partners with God but thats what it kinder sounds like where you said we must follow him and Allah,but Im sure thats not what you ment.I guess is just the way you said it thats wrong.
Im not sure we can follow God Almighty but we can obey God,does it anywhere says in the Quran follow God I dont think so it always says obey God.We can follow God's Message,God's guidence and so on.People could have followed Prophet Muhammed when he was alive,peace be upon him,but we cant do that right now.What God tells us in the Quran is that Prophet Muhammed only duty was to deliver the Message.We can follow Prophet Muhammed religion just as God tells us follow the religion of Abraham,they both practiced the same religion.Following or obeying Prophet Muhammed dont mean Muhammed the person but his teachings from God is that we should follow and obey,which is the Quran.God tells us in the Quran that Prophet Muhammed dosnt say anything of his own but he only tells us what God has reveald to him,God commanded Prophet Muhammed to teach us the Quran so obeying Prophet Muhammed is obeying God Message,with that obeying God Almighty, the One and Only.

And as far as following/obeying the Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) is concerned, just one example:
He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah: But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds). [4:80, Yusuf Ali's Translation]
So, I dont agree with what you have said.

Please answer my question just so I understand what you mean better,what do you mean by obeying Prophet Muhammed?
How can we obey Prophet Muhammed and if so why.

Never heard of Science of hadith?? classifications of weak and fabricated hadith?? You wrongly state that someone just says that its right

Science of Hadith tells us that the people have to verife if any of the companions ever lied if they find out they did then they reject the Hadith.
You dont need anybody to tell you this, we all know that there is just no way for us to know for sure if they ever lied or not,not possible,saying such a nonsense is funny.Only God Almighty knows if anybody is a lier or if he has ever lied.Even if we get most of the Hadith as being right, there will still be some that are wrong because we cant tell the difference for sure.

Again Im sorrry for bringing up PluckyAli's argument in my replys to you.
peace.

[thipps]

h| Gtv13,
I'd like you to answer a few questions as im interested in learning how you know these things.
Please answer as briefly as possible but you must provide details of the source of your
information so that I understand how you know. I'm sure you have other things to do, so i'll
just ask 3 questions for now. If I feel that there is need for more, then I will ask more.

1. What are the number of Rak'ahs in each prayer?
2. How many times one should circumambulate the Ka’bah i.e. number of rounds in a Tawaaf?
3. How many times one should go between al-Safa and al-Marwah (during Hajj/umrah)?

Hope you will respond.
thipps.

[GTv13]

1. What are the number of Rak'ahs in each prayer?
2. How many times one should circumambulate the Ka’bah i.e. number of rounds in a Tawaaf?
3. How many times one should go between al-Safa and al-Marwah (during Hajj/umrah)?

You can find all you answers here http://www.submission.org/duties.html its one of the best Islamic sites on the net.They give pretty good explenation as well prove why most Muslims are a little lost.Now dont be like some other people who dont even want to check the site out,but they just keep saying they aint no real Muslims,when I ask why, I never get an inteligent answer.
http://www.submission.org/salat/
you can click on that link than the third link from above to find out about the number of Rak'ahs in prayer.
For your second and third questions click on this link http://www.submission.org/hajj/
The first 3 links should have the answers to your questions.
peace.

[bananabrain]

i don't have a stake in this thread, so this is just my view from the "peanut gallery", as it were...

if i follow this very interesting discussion, it seems to me that gtv13 is arguing for a more liberal interpretation of the hadith and sunnah overall. however, i'm not sure, on the basis of the arguments so far, that in the case of particular examples, the argument is being justified. now, while i can see how a more lenient or, if you prefer, liberal set of interpretations, it appears that it's not being backed up by an authority. can we, for example, settle on one particular example and show how the different interpretations can be considered different levels of stringency?

for me, a PoV would appear more authoritative if it is backed up by an integrated position and supported by linguistic analysis and traditional sources. at the moment, thipps is doing this (as far as i can tell) and gtv13 is arguing from a more emotional position. and, incidentally, the whole discussion is not helped by people accusing each other of not being proper muslims, or claiming that they have a monopoly on true interpretation. it's a cheap technique and doesn't do the religion justice.

whilst i personally believe that there are multiple interpretations of islamic law, i also believe this is not a barrier to islamic unity; i would be interested to hear about any frameworks in which these positions can be reconciled, whether it's in terms of tariqas within a greater shari'a of whether it can be done as we do it in judaism, by distinguishing between normative practice and that of the "pious" who wish to go lifnim min'shurat ha-deen (beyond the strict requirements), which is a concept i would be surprised not to encounter within islam.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[thipps]

Originally Posted by GTv13

Science of Hadith tells us that the people have to verife if any of the companions ever lied if they find out they did then they reject the Hadith.
You dont need anybody to tell you this, we all know that there is just no way for us to know for sure if they ever lied or not,not possible,saying such a nonsense is funny.Only God Almighty knows if anybody is a lier or if he has ever lied.Even if we get most of the Hadith as being right, there will still be some that are wrong because we cant tell the difference for sure.

Im going to ask you this once only eventhough it seems pretty clear what you just said. When you say "Science of Hadith tells us that the people have to verife if any of the companions ever lied... " you mentioned "the companions"... this, among muslims, refers to the Companions of the Prophet (pbuh). Did I understand you correctly that you referred to these same Companions (may Allaah be pleased with them)??