Gods? Who created those?

robocombot · 02-17-2005, 10:50 PM

I have never found an answer to this so please some one help!

Do those who believe in many gods believe that those gods were made or have they always existed?

If not, who created those gods? Are they part of "creation" rather then "creators"?

Also, should we not worship the creator rather then the created? This is my principle reason for accepting monotheism, but open to be proved wrong!

bgruagach · 02-18-2005, 04:01 AM

I don't think there's a single answer because it really depends on the specific deity we're talking about.

Some deities I think have always existed and we humans merely came up with names so that we could relate to them. Deities that are forces of nature, forces of creation or destruction, would fall in that category.

Other deities such as ones based on stories (like Hercules) that developed into deities over time are different. I think those types of deities are definitely ones that were essentially created by humans. The more their stories were told and elaborated, the more worship they received, the more powerful they became. But I'm not sure those types of deities existed in any real sense before their stories were developed and their reverence built to the point of actual worship.

The question of whether the creator or the created is worthy of worship is something else altogether and again I think it depends on the circumstance we're talking about. For instance, we can honour an artist for their talent and creativity (showing respect to the creator in that sense) but in other instances the creation (such as effective ways to heal illness) probably deserve more respect than the person who happened to discover or think it up first. Is the creator the originator of the creation, or are they more like the channel that the creation used to come into being? Sometimes the creation is more important than the channel it went through to come into being.

mirrorinthefog · 02-18-2005, 04:36 AM

I've come across many explanations for this, one being that dieties were/are representations of various aspects of a single being or entity; or that they are seperate entities that together serve to establish divinity.
Another is that although the essence that makes us who we are is unthinking,and that dieties are the conscious representations of this force-the intangible made tangible, as it were. They are vehicles for contacting this force and utilizing it. (although I guess this would fit into the former description above)
Other ideas are out there of course, these are just my take on the one's I've happened upon

old_goat · 03-06-2005, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Also, should we not worship the creator rather then the created? This is my principle reason for accepting monotheism, but open to be proved wrong!

This is perhaps where you are getting confused. By trying to frame the question from your own faith's stance, you miss the fundamental point, that each faith has its own basic foundations for 'who' to worship.

believer142 · 06-23-2005, 09:36 AM

The belief that the universe was caused by a physical entity is called Pantheim. This belief doesnt make sense because if our creator is "part" of our world then he had to be created at the same time. And it is contradictory to believe that the creator came into existence at the same time as its creation. The creator must transcend time and space. Otherwise, there would be a domino effect of causes that would never end. Aristotles' view was that every cause has to stop at one point which, for earth, he called the prime mover- God.

I hope that makes sense and answers your question.

bgruagach · 06-23-2005, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by believer142

The belief that the universe was caused by a physical entity is called Pantheim. This belief doesnt make sense because if our creator is "part" of our world then he had to be created at the same time. And it is contradictory to believe that the creator came into existence at the same time as its creation. The creator must transcend time and space. Otherwise, there would be a domino effect of causes that would never end. Aristotles' view was that every cause has to stop at one point which, for earth, he called the prime mover- God.

I hope that makes sense and answers your question.

Pantheism is the belief that the Divine is immanent, that is, present within everything that exists and not separate from the physical realm.

Whether the physical realm was created or not, and has a point in time where it began (and thus a point in time where it did not exist) is another question entirely. Not all religious beliefs subscribe to the idea that there was a point in time where everything just came into existence!

path_of_one · 06-23-2005, 09:46 PM

Good point, Ben. In fact, even science can't agree if the there was a "starting point" for the universe (like the big bang) or if the universe has always been in some sort of cyclical cycle (as in some of M theory). Personally, I find the idea of either to be irrelevant to the idea of God. Whether creation happens once, or is cyclical and eternal, still doesn't answer the question if there is/are Being(s) out there that transcend time and space, are omnipresent/scient/potent, etc.

My personal opinion is that there is really only One Divine, but many aspects and many interpretations of those aspects, but I respect that others believe there are actually multiple deities.

believer142 · 06-24-2005, 02:43 AM

[quote=bgruagach]Pantheism is the belief that the Divine is immanent, that is, present within everything that exists and not separate from the physical realm.

Yes sorry if i was unclear about that. You're right. But regardelss, my arguement still makes sense.

Not all religious beliefs subscribe to the idea that there was a point in time where everything just came into existence!

Again right. But i am not arguing that. I am simply giving my subjective view of what makes sense to me.

InLove · 06-24-2005, 05:53 AM

Hey, Everyone--Peace--

I was just wondering about the idea that God created God--I dunno--God is, after all, God....

I realize I am thinking outside the box....

InPeace,
InLove

path_of_one · 06-24-2005, 08:21 PM

I guess I just never had a problem thinking there is an Uncreated One. Just made internal sense to me, and fit with my own experience.

As for pantheism, I will try to explain why it is not a problematic concept, at least from my point of view. Essentially, pantheism is the belief that God exists in everything and is not separate from the physical realm. Here's why this makes sense, from a Christian perspective. (Please understand, I'm actually a panentheist- I believe God both exists in all and yet also independent of all, but this will hopefully help.) In the Christian perspective of God, as I understand it, all that exists was once only thoughts of God's mind. I'm using anthropomorphic language to explain, but I don't believe God literally has a brain of course, but rather that we believe God is a personal Being with thought. From these thoughts, came action. He spoke the heavens and earth into existence. He created all that is. He breathed life into all the living beings. So, at our essence, we are thoughts of God. Everything contains the spoken word of God, which created the entirety of the material universe, and we ourselves contain the breath of life from God, which animates all life. Because of this, "the Word is written on our hearts"- God is immanent in all creation, and his divine animating force is immanent within us. God is, therefore (in this perspective), not necessarily dependent on the material realm, but rather all creation is infused with divinity, and heaven is inseparably intwined with earth. God is not distant, removed, separated by any clear boundary... but rather God is in the heart of each of us, and present in all life, and His glory is manifest in every sunset, every full moon, every new flower. We can feel His embrace in the wind, the water, the sunlight. We don't need to feel alone, waiting to escape this life, because He is within this life. Heaven is not a distant place, gaurded by an impassable gate... but rather heaven is right next to us, in the same physical space- it is a spiritual realm separated only by a thin and translucent veil, and we can catch glimpses of it in every infant's smile, in every peaceful wooded glen, and in every act of love between living beings.

Pantheism doesn't degrade God by believing He is not separated from us, but rather elevates creation by believing that He is with and in us always.

Peace to you,
Path

lunamoth · 06-24-2005, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by path_of_one

(Please understand, I'm actually a panentheist- I believe God both exists in all and yet also independent of all, but this will hopefully help.)

Interesting post, Path of One. Panentheism is worth a thread all its own, perhaps. I consider myself a panentheist as well.

lunamoth

InLove · 06-25-2005, 01:27 AM

Hello, Peace--

I agree that this would be an interesting study.

path_of_one, I have related to you before that I was interested in learning more about the Druids and Celts, and I am also very interested in American Indian spirituality, and I am wondering if this would fit right into the panentheistic study? (I am largely of Irish and Cherokee descent--maybe this has something to do with my interest.) I am about to finish up with the book I am working on--going to the publisher soon--maybe I will have some time to do some reading here on the website and other places--any suggestions?

InPeace,
InLove

InLove · 06-25-2005, 03:57 AM

Hi, and Peace to All Here--

I just want to apologize if my terminology in that last post was incorrect. Instead of "American Indian", I realize that the correct term is probably "Native American." I have a difficult time with stuff like this--maybe because I have lost, somewhere down the line, the connections I need to deal with it all. But they are in my heart...

Sorry about that--funny, I am the first "native-born Texan" in my entire family. But then that is probably wrong, as well, since my parents came from somewhere else.

Sincerely (and gingerly),
InPeace,
InLove (native label-hater

)

earl · 06-25-2005, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Interesting post, Path of One. Panentheism is worth a thread all its own, perhaps. I consider myself a panentheist as well.

lunamoth

I'm getting a bit dottering in my older age, so may be repeating myself in that can't remember if I posted this weblink here before, but for those interested in what panentheism implies and/or are interested in what inspiration might come of blending West & East here's a link to a good article regarding both by that now deceased, wonderful Christian monk, Bede Griffiths who spent so many years in India :

http://www.monasticdialog.com/a.php?id=83

Bless you all, Earl

path_of_one · 06-25-2005, 08:42 PM

Thanks for the link, earl. I hadn't seen it before.

In Love, I sent you a PM. Not sure about what links are OK and what not to post, so I figured that was best. It's worth saying that I have a few links, but far more book suggestions, and as for the panentheism, that just sort of sprung up out of my own spiritual experience- and then I thought, hey! There's other people who have thought of that same idea- maybe I should check them out!

I think it'd be very interesting to have a panentheist thread- any suggestions about where to post? I have the sneaking suspicion that a Christian panentheist thread would get some very passionate and diverse responses going, and likely a bit of debate. The question, of course, hearkens back all the way to the Synod of Whitby, the split of the Celtic and Roman Catholic ideas about God and the "heresy" of Pelagius according to Augustine. All those old issues just stay with us...

Edited to add- as far as I know, Native American and American Indian are both fully acceptable labels. I prefer Native American myself, but my university's program is called "American Indian studies," and they developed it with input from local tribes. So you're not off the mark after all, In Love!