Godparents

Nick the Pilot · 05-19-2007, 06:42 AM

Hi everybody!

We are having a fascinating discussion about Godparents over at the Buddhist Forum. The issue of Buddhists being asked to be Christian Godparents has been raised.

I would like to ask: In each of your forms of Christianity, does the role of Godparent require a Buddhist godparent to train the child as a Christian in the event the biological parents can no longer provide such training? Are there specifc vows the Godparent-designate must verbalize during the christening?

We also have a question concerning custody. In each of your forms of Christianity, does the role of Godparent require the Godparent to take legal custody of the child in the event the biological parents become unavailable?

Thomas · 05-19-2007, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

I would like to ask: In each of your forms of Christianity, does the role of Godparent require a Buddhist godparent to train the child as a Christian in the event the biological parents can no longer provide such training? Are there specifc vows the Godparent-designate must verbalize during the christening?

Hi Nick –

In the Catholic and Orthodox Traditions, yes. The Creed forms the basis of the Baptismal Rites (the Creed as a doctrinal statement derives from the baptismal confession of faith), and in the case of paedopbaptism the godparent makes the vow on the child's behalf, so there is a requirement for the godparent to be Christian, to believe in the faith as it is defined, and the subsequent promises being made.

I would have thought this would involve a Buddhist in a fundamental contradiction.

The Buddhist might offer to guarantee the child was raised as a Christian, but could not become therefore a godparent. S/He would have to find someone else to fulfill that task.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

We also have a question concerning custody. In each of your forms of Christianity, does the role of Godparent require the Godparent to take legal custody of the child in the event the biological parents become unavailable?

No. It is not a legal or secular matter, it is a spiritual matter, so there is no such requirement.

Thomas

Nick the Pilot · 05-19-2007, 02:29 PM

Thomas,

Thanks for the info.

Yes, this issue does come up from time to time. I suppose that if two Christian parents had a friend who was a Buddhist, it would be only natural for them to ask the Buddhist to be a god parent. The question of legal guardianship makes everything all the more important. Since there is no requirement for legal guardianship, I now recommend that Buddhists refuse such a request.

On the same topic, I came across an amazing god parent story this week. One of the ladies at work was born illegitimately in Mexico. Her mom, aged 15 at the time of the pregnancy, was thrown out into the street, which was (and partially still is) the custom at that time and place. The mom and baby were taken in by the godmother. The lady at work says she was raised by both her mother and godmother. It is an amazing story of pain and love.

So the question needs to be asked. If a person's godchild was thrown out of the house at age 15, would they take him/her in? Would they feel obliged to do so? It is not an easy question for a non-Christian to answer.

Thomas · 05-19-2007, 02:43 PM

Hi Nick –

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

I suppose that if two Christian parents had a friend who was a Buddhist, it would be only natural for them to ask the Buddhist to be a god parent.

I don't think 'natural' is quite the word? I would read it as an impossible request to make of a Buddhist, I would never put a friend in a position that must compromise his or her beliefs.

Thomas

wil · 05-19-2007, 03:16 PM

Not having the Catholic Church as a guide, my families view was the G-d parents were those that would care for the children if the parent became unable.

In that decision for my children, if a Buddhist friend was the one I thought that would best care for my child...if I and my wife were gone or incapacitated I would expect them to do the best they could. I could see if it were a young age they'd probably be raised Buddhist. But if the child had been going to my religious choice for a number of years...I'd suspect they'd honor that and continue to allow their studies to grow....and would expect they'd get some extracurricular learning at home....

My hope of hopes is that I raise my child to make decisions for themselves as they learn and grow....and that if anyone else ends up having to complete this task, they would do the same. My wife and I were G-dparents to two children who are now in college....and my sister and I are G-dparents to each others children... I guess for me, it is much more a secular thing.

oh, and Thomas, how is the essay editting going?

I, Brian · 05-19-2007, 03:56 PM

That's a good point, wil - I know one of my own godparents was Jewish, but my family was never particularly religious so was probably more in tune with your reasoning.

Nick the Pilot · 05-19-2007, 06:38 PM

Wil and Brian,

I am more in line with your thinking than I am with Thomas'. It seems to me, a god parent would be there for the child, whether religiously or financially, if the biological parents became unavailable. Perhaps if such a relationship were desired, it would be better to have such a christening in a church other than the type Thomas goes to. I am curious if the more liberal Christian denominations have such an approach.

Wil, you have brought up a good point, perhaps an idea for a new thread. At what point should a parent expect their child to follow the parent's religion, and at what point does a parent teach open-mindedness and critical thinking that dares to take the child away from the parent's religion? I, for one, would make the child aware of my belief system, but I would put the second choice at a higher priority. My answer to the question is, it is the parent's job to teach critical thinking skills to the child, even if it takes the child to a different belief system.

wil · 05-19-2007, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

My answer to the question is, it is the parent's job to teach critical thinking skills to the child, even if it takes the child to a different belief system.

My answer is yes. I implore my children to grow and think on their own. To question, to probe, to discern for themselves. They question me, they question the church, they question their teachers, they question authority.

"Oh, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you."

btw, they are now 14, and I am occasionally challenged at this decision, but overall it suits them admirably. Ask me again in ten years.

Thomas · 05-20-2007, 10:42 AM

Catholicism and the Orthodox Communions retain the purely initiatic nature of Baptism as entry into the Christian Mysteries, with no secondary or ancilliary addition or external consideration.

Therefore, it will require that the godparent themselves be initiates, which would preclude those of another tradition – another initiation – no matter how they might benefit the child in other aspects.

Thomas

Nick the Pilot · 05-20-2007, 01:47 PM

Wil,

It sounds like raising your children has been a challenge. Hang in there!

By the way, by the time I was 14, I was well on my way to questioning the church I was forced to attend, and I was already seeking other religious choices. Have your children already started looking around at other belief systems?

wil · 05-20-2007, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

It sounds like raising your children has been a challenge. Hang in there!

By the way, by the time I was 14, I was well on my way to questioning the church I was forced to attend, and I was already seeking other religious choices. Have your children already started looking around at other belief systems?

Not a challenge a joy! or a joyful challenge...

My kids question...the ark, genesis, in sunday school, but the are currently straight A students and taking courses ahead of their years...can't complain.

I'm just hoping I am not as naive as my folks were....at 14 I was already a delenquent, by 16 I was bettin on the ponies when I shoulda been in school, and I was studying supply and demand, wholesale vs. retail as extracurricular activities...

Nick the Pilot · 05-20-2007, 09:34 PM

Wil,

If they need more questions to ask in Sunday school, you only need to request them!

wil · 05-21-2007, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

If they need more questions to ask in Sunday school, you only need to request them!

blieve me...I've seen the floodgates open...when they get started they are fast and furious...sometimes we end up combining middle schoolers and high schoolers...and it'll be a bunch of kids and one takes off...and it is a semi controlled bedlam, but a blast to see the wheels turning...

Being in a church that has heaven, reincarnation, acceptance, love, tolerance, and suggests that everyone question and discover tends to be exciting at these grade levels...

Nick the Pilot · 05-21-2007, 01:58 AM

Wil,

When a church teaches reincarnation, I am very supportive.

What kind of a church is it? Are you one of the sunday school teachers?

wil · 05-21-2007, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Wil,

When a church teaches reincarnation, I am very supportive.

What kind of a church is it? Are you one of the sunday school teachers?

Unity and yes. And while the founder believed in reincarnation, I can't say we exactly 'teach' it but teach about it. Our basis is that we provide the information for youth and adults to add to their research outside of church to allow them to make their own decisions on their knowledge, experience, contemplations and beliefs.

Our principles are:
1. God is good

God is absolute good and everywhere present.
2. People are good

Since humans are made in the image of God, they have a spark of divinity within them and therefore are inherently good also.
3. Thoughts create experiences

Human beings create their experiences by the activity of their thinking. Everything in the manifest realm has its beginning in thoughts.
4. Prayer is connection

Prayer is creative thinking that heightens the connection with God and therefore brings forth wisdom, healing, prosperity and everything good.
5. Action is needed

Knowing and understanding the laws of life--also called truth--is not enough. A person must live the truth that he or she knows.

or for kids

1. God is all good and active in everything, everywhere.

2. I am naturally good because God's Divinity is in me and in everyone.

3. I create my experiences by what I choose to think and what I feel and believe.

4. Through affirmative prayer and meditation, I connect with God and bring out the good in my life.

5. I do and give my best by living the Truth I know. I make a difference!

And the 'official version'

1. There is only one Presence and one Power active as the universe and as my life, God the Good.

2. Our essence is of God; therefore, we are inherently good. This God essence was fully expressed in Jesus, the Christ.

3. We are co-creators with God, creating reality through thoughts held in mind.

4. Through prayer and meditation, we align our heart-mind with God. Denials and affirmations are tools we use.

5. Through thoughts, words and actions, we live the Truth we know.

or the short form

G-d is, I am, I create, Pray and Do.

05-19-2007, 06:42 AM	#1 (permalink)
Nick the Pilot Executive Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Westmorland, California Posts: 767	Godparents Hi everybody! We are having a fascinating discussion about Godparents over at the Buddhist Forum. The issue of Buddhists being asked to be Christian Godparents has been raised. I would like to ask: In each of your forms of Christianity, does the role of Godparent require a Buddhist godparent to train the child as a Christian in the event the biological parents can no longer provide such training? Are there specifc vows the Godparent-designate must verbalize during the christening? We also have a question concerning custody. In each of your forms of Christianity, does the role of Godparent require the Godparent to take legal custody of the child in the event the biological parents become unavailable?

05-19-2007, 02:29 PM	#3 (permalink)
Nick the Pilot Executive Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Westmorland, California Posts: 767	*~-,._.,-~'`^`'~-,._.,-~'`^`'~-,._.,-~'`^`'~-,._.,-~'`^`'~-,._.,-~* Thomas, Thanks for the info. Yes, this issue does come up from time to time. I suppose that if two Christian parents had a friend who was a Buddhist, it would be only natural for them to ask the Buddhist to be a god parent. The question of legal guardianship makes everything all the more important. Since there is no requirement for legal guardianship, I now recommend that Buddhists refuse such a request. On the same topic, I came across an amazing god parent story this week. One of the ladies at work was born illegitimately in Mexico. Her mom, aged 15 at the time of the pregnancy, was thrown out into the street, which was (and partially still is) the custom at that time and place. The mom and baby were taken in by the godmother. The lady at work says she was raised by both her mother and godmother. It is an amazing story of pain and love. So the question needs to be asked. If a person's godchild was thrown out of the house at age 15, would they take him/her in? Would they feel obliged to do so? It is not an easy question for a non-Christian to answer.

05-19-2007, 03:16 PM	#5 (permalink)
wil UNeyeR1 Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 5,686	Re: Godparents Not having the Catholic Church as a guide, my families view was the G-d parents were those that would care for the children if the parent became unable. In that decision for my children, if a Buddhist friend was the one I thought that would best care for my child...if I and my wife were gone or incapacitated I would expect them to do the best they could. I could see if it were a young age they'd probably be raised Buddhist. But if the child had been going to my religious choice for a number of years...I'd suspect they'd honor that and continue to allow their studies to grow....and would expect they'd get some extracurricular learning at home.... My hope of hopes is that I raise my child to make decisions for themselves as they learn and grow....and that if anyone else ends up having to complete this task, they would do the same. My wife and I were G-dparents to two children who are now in college....and my sister and I are G-dparents to each others children... I guess for me, it is much more a secular thing. oh, and Thomas, how is the essay editting going?

05-19-2007, 03:56 PM	#6 (permalink)
I, Brian Soul Rebel Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Highlands of Scotland Posts: 4,604	Re: Godparents That's a good point, wil - I know one of my own godparents was Jewish, but my family was never particularly religious so was probably more in tune with your reasoning.

05-19-2007, 06:38 PM	#7 (permalink)
Nick the Pilot Executive Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Westmorland, California Posts: 767	*~-,._.,-~'`^`'~-,._.,-~'`^`'~-,._.,-~'`^`'~-,._.,-~'`^`'~-,._.,-~* Wil and Brian, I am more in line with your thinking than I am with Thomas'. It seems to me, a god parent would be there for the child, whether religiously or financially, if the biological parents became unavailable. Perhaps if such a relationship were desired, it would be better to have such a christening in a church other than the type Thomas goes to. I am curious if the more liberal Christian denominations have such an approach. Wil, you have brought up a good point, perhaps an idea for a new thread. At what point should a parent expect their child to follow the parent's religion, and at what point does a parent teach open-mindedness and critical thinking that dares to take the child away from the parent's religion? I, for one, would make the child aware of my belief system, but I would put the second choice at a higher priority. My answer to the question is, it is the parent's job to teach critical thinking skills to the child, even if it takes the child to a different belief system.

05-20-2007, 10:42 AM	#9 (permalink)
Thomas Will you also go away? Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,280	*Re: ~-,._.,-~'`^`'~-,._.,-~'`^`'~-,._.,-~'`^`'~-,._.,-~'`^`'~-,._.,-~* Catholicism and the Orthodox Communions retain the purely initiatic nature of Baptism as entry into the Christian Mysteries, with no secondary or ancilliary addition or external consideration. Therefore, it will require that the godparent themselves be initiates, which would preclude those of another tradition – another initiation – no matter how they might benefit the child in other aspects. Thomas

05-20-2007, 01:47 PM	#10 (permalink)
Nick the Pilot Executive Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Westmorland, California Posts: 767	*~-,._.,-~'`^`'~-,._.,-~'`^`'~-,._.,-~'`^`'~-,._.,-~'`^`'~-,._.,-~* Wil, It sounds like raising your children has been a challenge. Hang in there! By the way, by the time I was 14, I was well on my way to questioning the church I was forced to attend, and I was already seeking other religious choices. Have your children already started looking around at other belief systems?

05-20-2007, 09:34 PM	#12 (permalink)
Nick the Pilot Executive Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Westmorland, California Posts: 767	*~-,._.,-~'`^`'~-,._.,-~'`^`'~-,._.,-~'`^`'~-,._.,-~'`^`'~-,._.,-~* Wil, If they need more questions to ask in Sunday school, you only need to request them!

05-21-2007, 01:58 AM	#14 (permalink)
Nick the Pilot Executive Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Westmorland, California Posts: 767	Re: Godparents Wil, When a church teaches reincarnation, I am very supportive. What kind of a church is it? Are you one of the sunday school teachers?

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