God versus Satan

[louis]

I've heard other people say many things about God's relationship to Satan. Of course, I'm aware that whatever they say is pure speculation because NO human has
certain knowledge of such things.
Which means MY speculations are as good as theirs.

For example, some speak of God and Satan as if they
were beings of equal power competing for conrol of
the universe. But surely that contradicts the very
idea of God as the Original Power. If Satan came later
than God, he must be a PRODUCT of God and
therefore SUBJECT to God. If so, why would God
allow him to cause so much trouble before taking
steps to discipline him ?

Let me go over what I've heard about "Satan"....
It's supposed to have started with God - then God
made some "angels" - and then some "people" .
Then he told his angels to respect the people.
But one angel refused - his name was Lucifer ( Bringer
of Light ). He became schizoid, split off another
personalty named Satan ( Prince of Darkness )
and went to establish another place where HE was boss.
Since then, he likes to make trouble just for spite.
I can't imagine any other purpose - if he should
succeed in destoying God, the one who made him
and sustains him, he would destroy himself as well.

And, for some reason, God let's him get away with it ????

Louis....

[Fegor]

Originally Posted by louis

For example, some speak of God and Satan as if they
were beings of equal power competing for conrol of
the universe.

you are right, they are not. Any serious monotheistic religion would have God as superior to the Advesary.

Originally Posted by louis

If so, why would God
allow him to cause so much trouble before taking
steps to discipline him ?

He was diciplined for waring God and the Angels, by being kicked out of Heaven. The fall, according to Satan's account in "The Book of Adam and Eve", means more to Satan than we might think. Whats more he was cursed after the fall of man. OF course Satan is not literally a serpent but God cursed The Devil to certain damnation as per Revelation 20.

Originally Posted by louis

Since then, he likes to make trouble just for spite.
I can't imagine any other purpose - if he should
succeed in destoying God, the one who made him
and sustains him, he would destroy himself as well.

He doesn't do it out of Spite. He does it to hurt GOd. Since he is not in Heaven anymore, He can't war the way he did before, so now he is attacking where God hurts the most, where He has invested so much love (God is love), Humanity.

Originally Posted by louis

And, for some reason, God let's him get away with it ????

It's revealed that he doesn't get away with anything back in Revelation 20 lol

[louis]

He doesn't do it out of Spite. He does it to hurt GOd. Since he is not in Heaven anymore, He can't war the way he did before, so now he is attacking where God hurts the most, where He has invested so much love (God is love), Humanity.

From Louis...
How can God be "hurt" ?
What do you mean by "war" ?
Forgive my ignorance of your terminology - I'm a
toal novice where religeous expressions are concerned-
but I would like a clear description of what you mean.

[gluadys]

There are many legends about Satan in Jewish-Christian-Islamic lore. Interstingly, most of it is extra-scriptural legend, or based on mystical interpretations of some scriptural passages whose literal meanings are more prosaic.

Satan appears late in Jewish theology. He is not named in any pre-exilic writing and seems to have been borrowed from the Zoroastrian teaching which they encountered among the Persians.

This means, among other things, that the serpent in Eden was not Satan, as that is a pre-exilic writing. The identification of the serpent with Satan was not made until the Christian era. I don't know if Judaism ever made this connection.

In the OT, Satan appears as a servant of God, not an enemy. He can be, however, an enemy of God's servants, for his role is that of "accuser" or "adversary" in the sense of one who brings charges against another in a court of law. This is how he appears in the book of Job.

In the non-canonical writings of Judaism in the inter-testamental period, there is a huge development of the character of Satan, and, especially in apocalyptic literature he appears less and less a servant of God and more and more an enemy. One instance is in the apocryphal book of Tobit where an angelic messenger from God relates to Tobit that he was delayed by a confrontation with Satan.

By the first century CE he is referred to in totally negative terms as a murderer, a liar (diabolos), lord of the demons, enemy of God and God's faithful. Medieval fancy continued to add to the details of his history, character, power and nefarious activities not to mention the conventional description of him as hoofed, tailed and horned and with leathery wings.

The war in heaven which results in Satan and his angelic followers being cast out is referred to in the NT book of Revelation and is seen there as a future event. Some have placed this as occurring before creation, but I don't see any textual support for that in the canonical scriptures.

[kcjwriter]

Friends: Satan only means "the adversary" and nothing more. All this devil stuff is the invention of the church. In creation, there is tension and polarity needed for creation to exist. Good cannot exist without evil, and hot cannot exists without cool. Wealth cannot exist without poverty, and intelligence cannot exist without ignorance. Salvation is the transcendence of both polarities into perfect nonduality. So, as one endeavors on the path of spiritual realization/salvation, one will understand that God is actually beyond good and evil. God is beyond all concepts that fall within the scope of duality. So, there is nothing to fear, only the fact that we are all quite attached to polarities of all kinds, however, with sincerity, the Divine will draw us to perfect nonduality. That is the mystery of Divine Grace, above and beyond all human beliefs and activities. Om Shanti. KJ

[Amica]

First man and woman, Adam and Eve, peace be upon them, did not abide by the commandment of God, yet they followed satan. Isn't it obvious then, that as a punishment God would give satan the power to sway people until the Judgement Day?
Satan is no god, he is not perfect. He is a creature created by the Almighty who for some reason in his jelousy and pride deserved the punishments he will endure. We followed him and this is where we are.
Just like we cannot do much of anything against the Creator's will, so can't satan.

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by kcjwriter

Friends: Satan only means "the adversary" and nothing more. All this devil stuff is the invention of the church. In creation, there is tension and polarity needed for creation to exist. Good cannot exist without evil, and hot cannot exists without cool. Wealth cannot exist without poverty, and intelligence cannot exist without ignorance. Salvation is the transcendence of both polarities into perfect nonduality. So, as one endeavors on the path of spiritual realization/salvation, one will understand that God is actually beyond good and evil. God is beyond all concepts that fall within the scope of duality. So, there is nothing to fear, only the fact that we are all quite attached to polarities of all kinds, however, with sincerity, the Divine will draw us to perfect nonduality. That is the mystery of Divine Grace, above and beyond all human beliefs and activities. Om Shanti. KJ

Satan very definitely is a real, personal being, the epitome of all unbelief and of every kind of moral and spiritual evil in the world. He is called by many names in the Bible, including Satan (meaning, “adversary”—Job 1:6; Romans 16:20; etc.), the devil (i.e., “slanderer”—Matthew 4:1; 1 Peter 5:8; etc.), Lucifer (Isaiah 14:12), the serpent (2 Corinthians 11:3; Revelation 12:9; etc.), and many others.

To the Christian, the existence of Satan as a real person is proved by the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ recognized him as such. He referred to him frequently by name (e.g., Luke 10:18; Matthew 4:10; etc.), and indeed called him “the prince of this world” (John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11).

The Apostle Paul called him the “god of this world” (2 Corinthians 4:4) and the “prince of the power of the air” (Ephesians 2:2). The Apostle John said “the whole world lieth in the wicked one” (1 John 5:19) and that he is the one “which deceiveth the whole world” (Revelation 12:9).


The Scriptures teach that, before man and the world were made, God had created an “innumerable company of angels” (Hebrews 12:22), a heavenly host of spiritual beings, of great strength and intelligence. The highest of these beings are the cherubim, who are attendants at the very throne of God, and the “anointed cherub that covereth” that throne was originally Satan himself (Ezekiel 28:14). He was “full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.”

Jesus also told us of some of the characteristics of Satan. Christ said he was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him, and that when he speaks he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies

(John 8:44). You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So based on the bible we are not looking at something the church "made up" we are looking at a created being given authority over the world and yes most definitely, an adversary of God.

[FriendRob]

gluadys, good summary.

Faithfulservant, you obviously haven't read your Bible very carefully, much less any scholarship on it. As gluadys said, it is only in the first century AD that Jews and Christians started identifying all the various "bad guys" in the earlier writings as a single character named Satan. For instance, the Is 14:12 verse you quote is immediately preceded by Is 14:4: "you will recite this satire on the king of Babylon and say...." That is, "Lucifer" is NOT a supernatural being, it is a satirical name for the king of Babylon. Similarly, Ez 28:14 follows 28:12: "Son of man, raise a lament for the king of Tyre. Say to him...." If you look at these verses in context, it is clear that they have nothing to do with Satan, they are about existing rulers. It was only later theologizing that (mis)interpreted them to refer to God's enemy.

A careful look at the references to Satan in the OT reveals that "the satan" ("Satan" as a proper name never appears in the OT) was a servant, not an enemy, of God in the Jewish religion. In Job 1:6, the satan is one of the "sons of God" (New Jerusalem Bible). He is clearly subject to God's authority: Job1:12 ""Very well,' Yahweh said to Satan, 'all he has is in your power. But keep your hands off his person.'"

Another place you can see this is in 1 Chronicles 21. This is, almost word-for-word copy of 2 Samuel 24. In 2 Sam 24:1 we read "Again, Yahweh's anger was aroused against Israel, and he incited David against them." The Chronicler's version instead reads "Satan took his stand against Israel and incited David ...." For the Chronicler, it is all one whether Satan or God is acting.

[Gnostradamus]

Greetings,

IMHO I don't understand how a being as intelligent as Satan (let's face it, he's obviously more "in the know" than us) could possibly hope to ever win his war against God - I don't believe for a second that he would be so stupid.

I mean, if I knew God and once stood in the assembly of angels, what possible reason would I find to jeapordise my position? Even humans have the wisdom to know that you can't beat omnipotence at it's own game.

For Satan to be God's adversary, Satan (to be consistent with his intelligence) would have to know that God is not omnipotent or else he has nothing at all to gain from rebellion.

In Eden when the Serpent tempted Adam and Eve with god-like knowledge, God didn't want them to eat also from the tree of life lest they become like gods.

IMO God sounds like the most insecure of the two beings, apparently afraid to allow Adam and Eve to become like Him.

Also, what's with a Jealous God? Jealous of who? We learn from Paul that Jealousy is not a part of Love, so how can God be Love and be Jealous at the same time.

Seems to me that there is a lot more to God and Satan's relationship than the Bible lets on. Especially when you read the parallels in the Mesopotamian writings like "Enuma Elish".

[Cerealkiller]

The Hellblazer comic books present an interesting theory of exactly who Satan is. According to Ennis Satan is God's conscience, pulled from his mind and given physical form, so that God could kick it out of heaven and do whatever he wished. Therefore, Satan isn't fighting a war he thinks he can win, its just that his only purpose in life is to fight God's "bad" ideas. Not that I agree with this premise, but it is an interesting idea.



It is my opinion that there is no such thing as true evil. I don't think Satan exists as an opposite force to God, one that wants simply to thwart whatever it is that God wishes. Whatever Satan may be, if it even exists, I think that it would have more reason for its actions than simply to try and hurt God.

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by FriendRob

gluadys, good summary.

Faithfulservant, you obviously haven't read your Bible very carefully, much less any scholarship on it. As gluadys said, it is only in the first century AD that Jews and Christians started identifying all the various "bad guys" in the earlier writings as a single character named Satan. For instance, the Is 14:12 verse you quote is immediately preceded by Is 14:4: "you will recite this satire on the king of Babylon and say...." That is, "Lucifer" is NOT a supernatural being, it is a satirical name for the king of Babylon. Similarly, Ez 28:14 follows 28:12: "Son of man, raise a lament for the king of Tyre. Say to him...." If you look at these verses in context, it is clear that they have nothing to do with Satan, they are about existing rulers. It was only later theologizing that (mis)interpreted them to refer to God's enemy.

A careful look at the references to Satan in the OT reveals that "the satan" ("Satan" as a proper name never appears in the OT) was a servant, not an enemy, of God in the Jewish religion. In Job 1:6, the satan is one of the "sons of God" (New Jerusalem Bible). He is clearly subject to God's authority: Job1:12 ""Very well,' Yahweh said to Satan, 'all he has is in your power. But keep your hands off his person.'"

Another place you can see this is in 1 Chronicles 21. This is, almost word-for-word copy of 2 Samuel 24. In 2 Sam 24:1 we read "Again, Yahweh's anger was aroused against Israel, and he incited David against them." The Chronicler's version instead reads "Satan took his stand against Israel and incited David ...." For the Chronicler, it is all one whether Satan or God is acting.

Anyone that says that satan is not a person in my opinion has been deceived by the father of lies himself.

[Nitai]

A surprising Vedic view.

* God is all good, he fulfills everyones desires as one deserves
* God is not partial therefor to anyone.
* As He is the well-wisher of all and so He arranges in everyones life's opportunities to come closer to Him.
* His compassion extends on Satan as well

* Pride, arrogance, conceit, anger, harshness and ignorance—these qualities belong to those of demoniac nature
* Those who are demoniac do not know what is to be done and what is not to be done. Neither cleanliness nor proper behavior nor truth is found in them.
* They say that this world is unreal, with no foundation, no God in control.

* the above satanic or demoniac qualities are found even in the neophyte religious people who are not yet completely pure.
* in greater degree these qualities are in the atheistic people
* CONCLUSION: Satan refers to our impure nature
* MEDICINE: one becomes purified, free from all bad qualities by the process of purification of chanting the names of God.
* all so-called satans are ultimately destined to become saints by the divine desire of the Supreme Lord, the well-wisher of everybody.
* PROOF: many staunch atheists in the history became religious.

Chant the names of God, praise Him and be happy

Hare Krishna

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by louis

For example, some speak of God and Satan as if they
were beings of equal power competing for conrol of
the universe. But surely that contradicts the very
idea of God as the Original Power. If Satan came later
than God, he must be a PRODUCT of God and
therefore SUBJECT to God. If so, why would God
allow him to cause so much trouble before taking
steps to discipline him ?

Louis....

I never understood this idea... So your god came first, so that prooves he has more power than anything else? My father was here before me I must be a PRODUCT of my father therefore a SUBJECT to my father... I am far more powerful than my father was. Physically and by miles mentally....

Why? Why does the father HAVE to be more powerful than the son?

[BlaznFattyz]

think of it in terms of the potter has control over the clay, not the other way around.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by louis

Let me go over what I've heard about "Satan"....
It's supposed to have started with God - then God
made some "angels" - and then some "people" .
Then he told his angels to respect the people.
But one angel refused - his name was Lucifer ( Bringer
of Light ). He became schizoid, split off another
personalty named Satan ( Prince of Darkness )
and went to establish another place where HE was boss.
Since then, he likes to make trouble just for spite.
I can't imagine any other purpose - if he should
succeed in destoying God, the one who made him
and sustains him, he would destroy himself as well.

Why not look at it another way?

Let's talk about politics instead of theories of light and darkness.

Let's suppose we are living in medieval times. Kingdoms are driven by feudalism.

God is the King.
The angels are the nobility.
Human beings are the peasants and serfs.

The thing about feudalism is that it's about loyalty to a feudal lord. If you are a peasant or serf, you give your life to a serve the feudal lords above you. Human beings, therefore, pledge their loyalty to angels. The angels, the feudal lords are supposed to serve their king -- God. But that is entirely their choice. These feudal lords (angels) can withhold taxes (devotion of believers) from their king (God). There is a hierarchy. Some angels are more powerful than others. There are dukes, earls, marquises and barons. That's the pecking order in a feudal government. The government in heaven is a bit like that -- there is a pecking order. Some angels lead other angels. Some angels are subordinates. Some angels dominate. You can just imagine the power struggles that must take place up there -- one angel vying for power over others.

The king himself (God) can be considered to be a feudal lord Himself. It's just that He's in charge of everyone else. The feudal lords are the divine beings (God and angels). The peasants and serfs are the mortal beings (humans). In that sense, Satan isn't really that powerful. He's simply smart. He has an army. An army of believers and devotees. There are probably other angels more powerful than him that are also opposing God. All he needs is a coalition. A coalition of the willing. Just think of heaven as an arena of warlords vying for control. God being one of them.

Governments are run by rules and protocols. They are rules of engagement. When a government is overthrown, it's called a coup de'tat (coo de tar). When an army is defeated, it's a coup de'grace (coo de grass).

What Satan needs is three things to seize power and overthrow God.

1) Defeat God's army (coup de grace)
2) Seize control at the capital -- walk into God's throne room (coup de tat)
3) Establish the legitimacy of his government

But if God is so powerful, wouldn't He be able to stop such a seizure of power? The answer is that God can't morally do that -- it's wrong -- it's an abuse of power. God doesn't have the right to do that once Satan achieves objectives 1-3 and establishes the legitimacy of his government.

God would lose His honour and dignity as ruler of the universe. Satan doesn't physically have to overpower God, he just needs to destroy His credibility.

Why doesn't God arrest Satan? Answer: Governments cannot arrest agents without a moral justification. Governments need evidence and need to justify it in court. They need search and arrest warrants. God needs that too. He can't search Satan's home or that of his accomplices without proof. God making a wrong move could spell disaster -- it would be a pretext for Satan to gather support from other angels launching a coup de'tat, marching into God's throne room and deposing God.

God knowing everything doesn't mean He's justified in doing what He wants. He has to justify it to the angels He created. Governments have to be accountable. So God has His own intelligence team to gather information, snoop around and spy on possible dissenters.

Why does Satan cause trouble?

It's to do with politics. Satan is a politician. He needs supporters. He wants to take over the government in heaven. He doesn't do it just for fun. Satan is a warlord. You know what warlords do. They take over governments. They set up their own political systems and governments. The more people like them and support them, the more powerful they become. Satan is not just a professional troublemaker. He's like an army general. You know what happens in a lot of Asian countries? Yes, there's been a lot of military coups. One general is deposed and replaced by another.

Which leads to another point: what happens if Satan wins? The answer is simple: some other angel (divine warlord) will want to take over. The cycle repeats -- one general for another. That's how the Roman Empire fell. A general wanted to be emperor and challenged the emperor so he could take his place.

God and His angels in heaven are in some ways like warring warlords and in other ways like bickering bureaucrats and politicians.

There is politics up there . . .

The whole point of this theory in Christianity, I guess, is that God will always be God. God will not lose His place to an angel. He will prevail in the end. He will play His cards right and not let someone else establish the legitimacy of his government.