God versus Satan

[RevKelly]

I always thought that Jesus was supposed to be the opposite of Satan. Jesus was the Lord of Love, Mercy, Empathy, Sympathy, etc... Satan was the Lord of Lies, Malice, Misery, Outrage, etc...

Just my opinion.

Peace,

Kelly

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by aburaees

I'm trying to understand you here, but what exactly is a "moral victory"? From and Abrahamic POV doesn't God have the final say when it comes to morality?

I'm finding it difficult to conceive of a way in which Satan can have a moral victory over the author of morality... and surely Satan, who is wiser than I am, would find this difficult too?

The way I see it, Satan can have a victory over mankind, but never over God...

That's what we've been taught -- that God has already written the rules down -- that God already has authority to judge.

Here's my theory.

God, for sure, is in power at the moment, but His authority is being challenged. So God is going to have to prove Himself. The onus is on God to prove that He's indeed worthy of being "God."

All Satan really has to prove is that "God is no better than the rest of us." All Satan needs to prove is that nobody is absolutely pure and nobody deserves the title of "Absolute God" or "Ideal God." Divine Government is there for the taking. Any angel powerful enough to rule deserves the highest place in the universe -- the position, rank and office of God Himself.

The idea is that Satan won't succeed, but at least for now he's been given the opportunity to discredit God . . .

If Satan succeeds, we will no longer be obliged to be God's people, we can choose instead to be the children of angels of our choosing. Whatever angel we choose is "our god." That's what an angel is -- a potential god. That's the theology so far as Christianity, Gnosticism and Judaism are concerned -- that angels are "potential gods." Not sure about Islam.

[aburaees]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

That's what we've been taught -- that God has already written the rules down -- that God already has authority to judge.

Here's my theory.

God, for sure, is in power at the moment, but His authority is being challenged. So God is going to have to prove Himself. The onus is on God to prove that He's indeed worthy of being "God."

All Satan really has to prove is that "God is no better than the rest of us." All Satan needs to prove is that nobody is absolutely pure and nobody deserves the title of "Absolute God" or "Ideal God." Divine Government is there for the taking. Any angel powerful enough to rule deserves the highest place in the universe -- the position, rank and office of God Himself.

The idea is that Satan won't succeed, but at least for now he's been given the opportunity to discredit God . . .

If Satan succeeds, we will no longer be obliged to be God's people, we can choose instead to be the children of angels of our choosing. Whatever angel we choose is "our god." That's what an angel is -- a potential god. That's the theology so far as Christianity, Gnosticism and Judaism are concerned -- that angels are "potential gods." Not sure about Islam.

So we're talking about parallels with the Sumerian Igigi/Annunaki, Interesting!

.

[flowperson]

Originally Posted by aburaees

So we're talking about parallels with the Sumerian Igigi/Annunaki, Interesting!

.

The cultural foundations of much of what is believed in the Abrahamic Religions originated in the religious practices and beliefs of ancient Sumer. There are also Egyptian and Persian influences, but mostly Sumerian and Babylonian. And now we sit here and wonder what all the fighting in Iraq is really about ?

In fact there were several articles published a few years ago at about the time that hostilities began which identified Mosul in Northern Iraq as the home territory of Satan.

flow....

[aburaees]

Originally Posted by flowperson

The cultural foundations of much of what is believed in the Abrahamic Religions originated in the religious practices and beliefs of ancient Sumer. There are also Egyptian and Persian influences, but mostly Sumerian and Babylonian. And now we sit here and wonder what all the fighting in Iraq is really about ?

In fact there were several articles published a few years ago at about the time that hostilities began which identified Mosul in Northern Iraq as the home territory of Satan.

flow....

According to Genesis, Babel was the place where our tongues were confused and the human race was fragmented... and here we are back where we started.

[wil]

Originally Posted by flowperson

In fact there were several articles published a few years ago at about the time that hostilities began which identified Mosul in Northern Iraq as the home territory of Satan.

Mosul was Ninevah...the town that Jonah didn't want to go to and ended up in the belly for three days...

How long we gonna stay in the belly?

[flowperson]

Wil:

Hmmmm? How to make a whale burp...or was it actually a fish ?

D'ya think we'd be considered big chunks or small ?

Just wondering.

flow....

[Faithfulservant]

I think someone watches too much tv.. I saw those movies too btw.. I didnt take them seriously though lol

[Faithfulservant]

Sorry have to add this.. To think God could be over powered or out maneuvered by His creation is ludicrous. He is Omni and outside of time.. He knew everything that would happen before He even invented the concept of time. Thats my truth based on scripture of course.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by aburaees

So we're talking about parallels with the Sumerian Igigi/Annunaki, Interesting!

What did they teach?

[aburaees]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

What did they teach?

They're not teachings per se, but they give a parallel account of things like Creation, the First Man (Adam), the Deluge, etc.

A great start would be to google "Enuma Elish", and "Adapa", they're my favourites.

[flowperson]

I believe that these mythologies can be accessed through the homepage of this website. Brian had the great foresight to provide us with much of the basic mythological information that we might need to become knowledgeable in the histories of religions.

flow....

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by aburaees

They're not teachings per se, but they give a parallel account of things like Creation, the First Man (Adam), the Deluge, etc.

A great start would be to google "Enuma Elish", and "Adapa", they're my favourites.

I think I might have given the wrong impression here.

In my idea, God was still God, and the angels were still angels. God was still all-powerful and all-seeing, but had moral obligations.

I've done a search for the Sumerian creation epics, but I don't think their theology on angels matched those of Christianity, Judaism and Gnosticism.

When I said that angels were "potential gods" I meant that they had the status and role of "gods." I use the words "God" and "god" as titles for transcendent beings that have tremendous power. So I wasn't suggesting anything like the Sumerian and Babylonian creationist theories.

I was also using the term "gods" as "possessors" of human beings. Each "god" is in control of a spiritual kingdom, which may be either visible (easily detectable and observable in this world through politics, ceremony, doctrines and rituals) or covert (only known personally through a person's heart and soul).

So the God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam is engaged in a struggle to re-acquire "possession" (as in ownership not mind control) of the hearts and minds of human beings, in competition with other agents, like the angels He personally created. So, in a sense, God is in a struggle against His own creations. What God created has rebelled against Him. Creation has rebelled against Creator and God simply wants to claim back what is rightfully His own. God certainly has immense power, but He has moral and ethical obligations to use that power appropriately. He's restricted by the ethics of dealing with His own creation.

It's just like us. What happens when we create computer-controlled robots that think . . . like us? Will they have rights? What are the ethical issues involved in dealing with intelligent agents that we create? Will they be our slaves? Will they be willing servants? Will they love us? Die for us? Give their lives for us? Or will they seek their own identity just as we seek our own separate identity from God? Methinks God faces the same dilemma.

Suppose you're the CEO of a company that manufactures these futuristic robots. Who are the "creator gods" of these robots? You and your colleagues, who designed the robots, are the "gods" of these robots. Their identity is attached to and defined by the company that created them. You are the "possessor" of these robots. They are your brainchild. There may be other companies that also design and manufacture robots. These companies are the "gods" of whatever robots they manufacture.

In the Abrahamic faiths, there is one Creator -- God. But God created angels as potential "possessors" of creations of a lower-order -- human beings -- the possessed. The angels were supposed to be guardians of human beings (the guided/guarded), but some of them become possessive and wanted to claim some human beings for themselves (ie. Satan). Human beings receive their identities from transcendent beings. Our identities are determined by our possessors/guardians. Our possessor/guardian is either God or an angel that He created. That was the idea.

[flowperson]

Saltmeister:

You have cut to the heart of the matter. When precise and animated simulations of life are created, what does that make us ? Isaac Azimov, as I mentioned elsewhere here this am, had a lot to say on the subject.

The Sumerian and Babylonian mythology boiled down to the concept of G-d as "the people". What did that concept make them ?

Kubrick's last film made in consort with S. Speilberg, AI-Artificial Intelligence, brings a lot of human understanding to the subject for me. Centennial Man wasn't bad either. Cultural phenomena, such as these two films, will probably do more to determine human attitudes in this area than scripture can/will.

It's just the way that things are in the 21st century. I've always believed that the greatest dilemma for humans in the coming century will be to determine the real as opposed to the artificial. At some point discernment will become impossible and the differences are bound to disappear based upon past experiences I believe. Is flying in an airplane something artificial or is it something real ? Of course it's real to people who are familiar with how airplanes were created and how the industry has developed. But what might an escapee from the 17th century believe if he were to come to our world ? It's all a matter of perspective IMO.

flow....