God versus Satan

[shadowman]

god sure seems to let satan get away with a LOT

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by shadowman

god sure seems to let satan get away with a LOT

Does he let him? Or can he not stop him?

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by louis

he likes to make trouble just for spite.
I can't imagine any other purpose -

Maybe we go wrong when we start thinking about purpose, why do we believe everyone and everything has a self-determined purpose, or even any purpose at all.
Not often you find wisdom in a Brad Pitt movie, but in Troy when Briseis asks him why he chose to be a warrior, he answers something like, I chose nothing, I was born and this is what I am.
I wonder, has Satan made any choice?

[flowperson]

Hey Cav:

Sure do like your new pic...you seem so...contented and satisfied. Do you know something that we don't or is the air just more uplifting in Taiwan ?

In the Islamic version Satan was known as Iblis, silbi spelled backwards. This may be important since evil is live spelled backwards. I like to think that G-d's cursing of Iblis for not bowing down and giving praise to the Adam, His/Her created being of flesh and blood, was to assign Iblis responsibility for operating the great and terrible reverse time machine that intervenes in non-linear ways in the forward moving timelines begun by G-d to support His/Her living creations. Or to put it simply...Iblis (Satan) makes s*** happen once in a while.

This is kind of a spin-off of the "old geezer behind the curtain" schtick and was popularized about 100 years ago in a book by Frank Baum and brought to the public by MGM in a film starring Judy Garland, Bert Lahr, Ray Bolger, and I forget who played the Tin Man. Beliefs beget myths, and myths beget beliefs, especially in the secular world

flow....

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Hey Cav:

Sure do like your new pic...you seem so...contented and satisfied. Do you know something that we don't or is the air just more uplifting in Taiwan ?

Whatever the reason, I'm glad of it. It's been a while

[flowperson]

Cav:

All you really have to do is to be thankful.

flow....

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Maybe we go wrong when we start thinking about purpose, why do we believe everyone and everything has a self-determined purpose, or even any purpose at all.

because god gave us a little bit of himself, therefore we are in control of the environment, the animals, and our fellow man. so we have a god given responsibility and in that we have a purpose. it can be as simple as loving your family.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Maybe we go wrong when we start thinking about purpose, why do we believe everyone and everything has a self-determined purpose, or even any purpose at all.
Not often you find wisdom in a Brad Pitt movie, but in Troy when Briseis asks him why he chose to be a warrior, he answers something like, I chose nothing, I was born and this is what I am.
I wonder, has Satan made any choice?

It starts with an obsession. An obsession is like a black hole that sucks you into another reality. It starts off as something small. As we get closer to the black hole, its attractive force increases. When you reach the Schwarz-child radius, it's the point of no-return.

We all get caught up in patterns of behaviour. We get obsessed/addicted to things. It's only when we hit the brick wall of our mortality, realise we've done tons of damage to our bodies and psyche that we start to change direction.

But, divine beings, angels, are immortal. It would be pretty hard to change when you don't have an incentive (ie. you're killing yourself and need to stop). Satan isn't going to die from being a corrupt agent in the spiritual realms. He can never die. What's the point of stopping if you've got nothing to lose? What's the point of changing?

Your conscience? Your scruples? Screw your conscience. Screw your scruples.

Will God finally arrest Satan? Satan says, maybe, perhaps. But then Satan has an opportunity -- a chance to form an army and overthrow God's Divine Monarchy. Get rid of God's tyrannical laws and his tyrannical government. Humanity and the Divine will then be free to romp in whatever pleasures they desire.

I might be mistaken, but I think I once heard, in my childhood, that it doesn't matter if you break the law, as along as you don't get caught, you're fine. So if you're a thief, dangerous criminal or someone who exceeds the speed limit, you could get away with anything if you knew how to prevent being caught. There is nothing wrong with doing illegal things if nobody can catch you.

Who's got pirated software? Pirated games and music? Who hasn't?

Getting away with "evil" is alright if you're smart. If you're smart you may even be able to see that there's nothing wrong with what you're doing. Justify your conscience. See no evil, speak no evil. No evil has been done. If the rest of the world says it's wrong, they are the ones who are wrong. It's everyone else's problem. It is they who are "spiritually polluted" and "warped." It isn't your problem. You're a responsible law-breaker. You can justify anything. You can redefine your values. Who cares about everyone else? You can do anything.

Ignore the self-righteous bigots who say there are moral absolutes. There are none. Come on. All I did was have a little bit of fun. Why is everyone so ill-humoured? Did I do that? Was it my fault?

Ok, this "attitude" wouldn't work for human beings. But angels don't suffer from these limitations. They're immortal. They can't die.

Self-determined behaviour? Methinks it's possible that it's a vicious cycle. Satan just can't help himself. It's not exactly driven by Fate, but the kind of character Satan has developed and continues to develop have ever-more malevolent agendas.

It's possible, also, that Satan has evolved over the centuries. The Satan we see depicted in Revelation is an advanced (older) version of Satan compared to the one in Genesis which is a younger Satan. As the story unfolds, Satan may eventually discover his own "apocalyptical future" which he hasn't yet visualised in fine detail. Sure he knows the Bible, he knows what's been written about him, but maybe he doesn't know how it will happen . . .

The future isn't exactly set, but it's unlikely that Satan will break out of this vicious cycle. Old habits die hard.

[aburaees]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Satan isn't going to die from being a corrupt agent in the spiritual realms. He can never die. What's the point of stopping if you've got nothing to lose? What's the point of changing?

Nothing to loose? Anyone who believes that Satan exists, also belives that he WILL lose in the end.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

But then Satan has an opportunity -- a chance to form an army and overthrow God's Divine Monarchy.

Even Satan would know that he CAN'T overthrow God, unless us Abrahamics have gotten it ALL WRONG about God and Satan.

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

because god gave us a little bit of himself, therefore we are in control of the environment, the animals, and our fellow man. so we have a god given responsibility and in that we have a purpose. it can be as simple as loving your family.

OK, a possible purpose, but not exactly a self-determined one. We do these things because we were created to do them.

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Self-determined behaviour? Methinks it's possible that it's a vicious cycle. Satan just can't help himself. It's not exactly driven by Fate, but the kind of character Satan has developed and continues to develop have ever-more malevolent agendas.

I think I know what you mean, and part of me agrees. Another part thinks it might even go further than this, to a point where the cycle is inevitable, where its viciousness is irrelevant.

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by cavalier

We do these things because we were created to do them.

i think we were given the ability to do them, but we have to choose to want to do them, its a choice.

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

i think we were given the ability to do them, but we have to choose to want to do them, its a choice.

I don't disagree, but wouldn't go as far as to agree either. Depending on what exactly you mean by "want", I defrinitely see this as possible.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by aburaees

Nothing to loose? Anyone who believes that Satan exists, also belives that he WILL lose in the end.

Even Satan would know that he CAN'T overthrow God, unless us Abrahamics have gotten it ALL WRONG about God and Satan.

Governments and their leaders must be accountable. If Satan can force God to do something that violates His own conscience then Satan would ultimately win. Satan doesn't need to be more powerful than God, he simply has to defeat God morally. God would never do anything that violated His scruples. Likewise, God can't get rid of Satan after he had established his moral authority as the "New God." God would have ceased to function as God.

In theory it should be possible for Satan to win a moral victory against God, but the idea is that he won't.

[aburaees]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Governments and their leaders must be accountable. If Satan can force God to do something that violates His own conscience then Satan would ultimately win. Satan doesn't need to be more powerful than God, he simply has to defeat God morally. God would never do anything that violated His scruples. Likewise, God can't get rid of Satan after he had established his moral authority as the "New God." God would have ceased to function as God.

In theory it should be possible for Satan to win a moral victory against God, but the idea is that he won't.

I'm trying to understand you here, but what exactly is a "moral victory"? From and Abrahamic POV doesn't God have the final say when it comes to morality?

I'm finding it difficult to conceive of a way in which Satan can have a moral victory over the author of morality... and surely Satan, who is wiser than I am, would find this difficult too?

The way I see it, Satan can have a victory over mankind, but never over God...