God Men of India

[Bruce Michael]

Tomberg's explanation of the God men of India is very good. This is from his book- Inner Development.

"Thus every human soul stands at one time before the choice of becoming wonderfully holy or else at some time in the future - by working through many imperfections - of attaining a far off ideal, wherein all underdeveloped faculties implanted in human nature by the gods will come to fruition."

What are your thoughts on achieving perfection?

-Br.Bruce

[Dondi]

Ain't there yet.

[Neemai]

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

What are your thoughts on achieving perfection?

Here's a thought -

We can never achieve perfection. But if we fully surrender to God, then we are perfect.

... Neemai

[wil]

Originally Posted by Neemai

Here's a thought -

We can never achieve perfection. But if we fully surrender to God, then we are perfect.

... Neemai

Interesting thought....in my mind that would mean that we are already perfect....but it is we that have added the impurities.

One of the commandments thou shall not commit adultery...thou shall not adulterate, dilute... If we are not perfect....we is dilluted!

[Postmaster]

Originally Posted by Neemai

Here's a thought -

We can never achieve perfection. But if we fully surrender to God, then we are perfect.

... Neemai

How do we surrender to God?

[Neemai]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

How do we surrender to God?

One teacher who I heard speak in India gave the following explanation:

"Faith is a symptom of Love of God, and surrender is the manifestation of that Love."

Personally I see this surrender as being largely an internal affair between yourself and God which may take different forms for different people. In my own case it is largely through chanting and singing God's names and through prayer and service - with the internals being a strong parts of these processes.

I'm assuming people in different religious practices may have similar inner experiences, while being involved in very different types of external practices?

...Neemai

[Postmaster]

Nice answer, thanks..

[Postmaster]

It could be surrendering to God is related to how efficient you allow yourself to become.

[sam1008]

Its not about acheiving perfection but rather realising one's perfection as the atma (soul or self) is of the nature of God and is already perfect. Surrender is realising ones identity with God.

[Postmaster]

I don't buy the realisation of your oneness with God makes you perfect. Because there is no set standard to realising God, were perfect the way we are without reading too much into it, and God is too great to ever realise the oneness.

However if I ever wanted to go into mysticism, I would read more into my relationship with God, I would try and reach a closer divine state then others, and I would try to see more of God then others, but would it make me perfect?

Whats more mystical and perfect is when man starts using his mind in intended ways, we should build wells for people, instead of taking water to them.

[Neemai]

Originally Posted by sam1008

Its not about acheiving perfection but rather realising one's perfection as the atma (soul or self) is of the nature of God and is already perfect. Surrender is realising ones identity with God.

This is the belief of the monist schools of Hinduism, but not of the dualist or partially-dualist traditions who would strongly disagree with identifying our ownselves with God.

... Neemai

[sam1008]

Originally Posted by Neemai

This is the belief of the monist schools of Hinduism, but not of the dualist or partially-dualist traditions who would strongly disagree with identifying our ownselves with God.

... Neemai

Originally Posted by Neemai

This is the belief of the monist schools of Hinduism, but not of the dualist or partially-dualist traditions who would strongly disagree with identifying our ownselves with God.

... Neemai

Hare Krishna Neemai,

The qualified non-dualist philosophy which I have read does identify our individual selves with God. It says the individual being is of the same quality as God but not the same quantity. Our nature (or quality) is Sat-Chid-Ananda (Being-Awareness-Bliss) and God's nature is Sat-Chid-Ananda; yet the individual soul only pervades a single body whereas the super-soul pervades all bodies. Also the Hare Krishnas say an individual spirit-soul can if it wants give up its individual existence and merge with God (but they don't advocate this). They say I am of God, God is in me and I am in God. They say God is the statue but the statue is not God, they say God is I but I am not God. They say we are the same but different. So I think its fair to say qualified non-dualists do identify themselves with God a bit.

Even the dualists identify themselves with God a bit they say I am the servant of God, God is my master. I belong to God. I am God's.

[Neemai]

Originally Posted by sam1008

Hare Krishna Neemai,

The qualified non-dualist philosophy which I have read does identify our individual selves with God. It says the individual being is of the same quality as God but not the same quantity. Our nature (or quality) is Sat-Chid-Ananda (Being-Awareness-Bliss) and God's nature is Sat-Chid-Ananda; yet the individual soul only pervades a single body whereas the super-soul pervades all bodies. Also the Hare Krishnas say an individual spirit-soul can if it wants give up its individual existence and merge with God (but they don't advocate this). They say I am of God, God is in me and I am in God. They say God is the statue but the statue is not God, they say God is I but I am not God. They say we are the same but different. So I think its fair to say qualified non-dualists do identify themselves with God a bit.

Even the dualists identify themselves with God a bit they say I am the servant of God, God is my master. I belong to God. I am God's.

Hi Sam,

The Achintya Bheda Abheda (inconceivable one-ness and difference) philosophy of the Hare Krishna's does describe the soul as one in quality, and yet not in quantity as you describe. However no-where in the Vaishnava canon is it accepted that one can eternally merge (or become one) with God. It is often described with the analogy of green parrot resting in a green tree. It may look like the two have merged, but ultimately the parrot will fly off again.

See also this paragraph by Swami Prabhupada where he discusses the matter: Bhagavad-gita As It Is Chapter 2 Verse 12

But I agree, at least for the Hare Krishna's they do identify themselves [the soul] with God a bit. Not sure if any followers of the Dvaita school would agree that they feel this way though?

... Neemai

[sam1008]

Originally Posted by Neemai

Hi Sam,

The Achintya Bheda Abheda (inconceivable one-ness and difference) philosophy of the Hare Krishna's does describe the soul as one in quality, and yet not in quantity as you describe. However no-where in the Vaishnava canon is it accepted that one can eternally merge (or become one) with God. It is often described with the analogy of green parrot resting in a green tree. It may look like the two have merged, but ultimately the parrot will fly off again.

See also this paragraph by Swami Prabhupada where he discusses the matter: Bhagavad-gita As It Is Chapter 2 Verse 12

But I agree, at least for the Hare Krishna's they do identify themselves [the soul] with God a bit. Not sure if any followers of the Dvaita school would agree that they feel this way though?

... Neemai

Originally Posted by Neemai

Hi Sam,

The Achintya Bheda Abheda (inconceivable one-ness and difference) philosophy of the Hare Krishna's does describe the soul as one in quality, and yet not in quantity as you describe. However no-where in the Vaishnava canon is it accepted that one can eternally merge (or become one) with God. It is often described with the analogy of green parrot resting in a green tree. It may look like the two have merged, but ultimately the parrot will fly off again.

See also this paragraph by Swami Prabhupada where he discusses the matter: Bhagavad-gita As It Is Chapter 2 Verse 12

But I agree, at least for the Hare Krishna's they do identify themselves [the soul] with God a bit. Not sure if any followers of the Dvaita school would agree that they feel this way though?

... Neemai

Hare Krishna Neemai

I read that bit and I see what you mean - Swami Prabhupada does strongly assert that the individual exists as an individual eternally. I thought he said that it could merge but that must mean only apparently or temporarily as you said. I'm not really a dangerous mayavadi or monist I beleive in the qualified non-dualist path.

I am deeply deeply grateful to Swami Prabhupada; his Hare Krishna literature introduced me to Hinduism, the Srimad Bhagavatam, the Bhakti Creeper, Namasmarana, Krishna Chaitanya and Radha-Krishna. The list could go on and on - Mahabarata, India, Hanuman-Lakshmana-Sita-Rama, Suka, yet where is the need to say more when Krishna the Para-Brahman is already in the list.

Unfathomable Krishna - Delicious Krishna - Delightful Krishna - With The All Seeing Lotus Eyes and the Bewitching Smile whose Lila this all is. Thank you Swami Prabhupada and ISKCON. Krishna Krishna Krishna Krishna Jaya!