God is Triune

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Silas

I was just showing the obvious plurality in God. Check out Gen 19:24 for instance:

"Then the LORD [Jehovah] rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD [Jehovah] out of heaven."

There are two distintive persons being discussed in that verse and the others I mentioned. "The LORD rained fire and brimstone "from the LORD."

By the way, you're right..."To live is Christ!"

So I'm wondering which person is the first-mentioned Jehovah and which person is the second-mentioned Jehovah ... and does the third person get a mention here?

Could it not mean something like:
"The president sent a message from the president to the troops."
It tells us who sent the message and in what capacity he sent the message.

[kenod]

The problem with finding the Trinity in the OT is that you must look through the lens of the Trinity to find it.

You are looking for what you want to find ... well, you always will!

[Silas]

Originally Posted by kenod

So I'm wondering which person is the first-mentioned Jehovah and which person is the second-mentioned Jehovah ... and does the third person get a mention here?

Could it not mean something like:
"The president sent a message from the president to the troops."
It tells us who sent the message and in what capacity he sent the message.

lol. OK, I'll buy that. How about this one:

"‘I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt; I slew your young men by the sword along with your captured horses, and I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils; yet you have not returned to Me,' declares the LORD. ‘I [Jehovah] overthrew you as God [Elohim] overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah...'" - Amos 4:10-11

Do you see the distintion?

[mee]

Originally Posted by kenod

So I'm wondering which person is the first-mentioned Jehovah and which person is the second-mentioned Jehovah ... and does the third person get a mention here?

Could it not mean something like:
"The president sent a message from the president to the troops."
It tells us who sent the message and in what capacity he sent the message.

preconcieved ideas cloud the thought.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Silas

lol. OK, I'll buy that. How about this one:

"‘I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt; I slew your young men by the sword along with your captured horses, and I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils; yet you have not returned to Me,' declares the LORD. ‘I [Jehovah] overthrew you as God [Elohim] overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah...'" - Amos 4:10-11

Do you see the distintion?

Then Jehovah made it rain sulphur and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens, upon Sod´om and upon Go·mor´rah Genesis 18;24

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Silas

lol. OK, I'll buy that. How about this one:

"‘I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt; I slew your young men by the sword along with your captured horses, and I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils; yet you have not returned to Me,' declares the LORD. ‘I [Jehovah] overthrew you as God [Elohim] overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah...'" - Amos 4:10-11

Do you see the distintion?

Amos 4:10-11

10. I sent among YOU people a pestilence in the nature of that of Egypt. With the sword I killed YOUR young men, along with the taking captive of YOUR horses. And I kept making the stink of YOUR camps ascend even into YOUR nostrils; but YOU did not come back to me,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.
11. I caused an overthrow among YOU people, like God’s overthrow of Sod´om and Go·mor´rah. And YOU came to be like a log snatched out of [the] burning; but YOU did not come back to me,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.

Read that version... Compare it to your version, ask yourself the same question again.

[Thomas]

A couple of points:

The prefix 'el' was a common name throughout the Mesopotamian region for God. Although "elohim" is plural, there is no evidence of a Trinitarian God in the Scriptures of the Jews, as Kenod points out. The term is plural, and impersonal, and we cannot be sure it does not belong to Israel's polytheistic heritage.

"And [Abraham] planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God." Gen 21:33

The Hebrew text is interesting here, as an example. 'the name of the LORD' YHWH, but this name was not known to Abraham, it was revealed to Moses on Mt Hebron, so this is the scribe's redaction.

'the everlasting God' is, in Hebrew, 'owlam el', which is a Canaanite term.

The point I am trying to make is that the knowledge of God in Hebrew history is not a 'done deal' as it were, but an unfolding of revelation in time and space, so the Hebrews were brought to this knowledge, it was not given, complete and entire, to Abraham at the start of his journey.

Thomas

[Thomas]

Hi Mee -

In reference to my quote of John 10:30 "I and the father are one" you replied:
YES One in unity of purpose
by which you appear to qualify the word of Christ, to mean something less than it could mean, which I would suggest is a dangerous precedent.

You go on to say:
"the bible is never illogical when the correct meaning is applied..." and I can only assume 'the correct meaning' is a qualified meaning, to make Scripture 'logical' according to your own determination.

The Catholic (and the Orthodox) on the other hand, never qualifies the Word of God. It takes everything Jesus says as a statement without need of qualification, and then seeks, by the reasoned reflection on what was said (or done), on other statements (and actions), and on the body of Scripture as a whole, to interpret the words and deeds and thereby discover what that statement tells us without qualification of the literal meaning.

Off the top of my head, I would suggest that the seeker reflects on one question only, and the same question always: "who do you say I am?" knowing full well that any answer will "surpasseth all understanding" (Phil 4:7) and open the mind to a Mystery that transcends reason and logic.

Thomas

[Silas]

Originally Posted by mee

Then Jehovah made it rain sulphur and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens, upon Sod´om and upon Go·mor´rah Genesis 18;24

How come you never answer the questions. I really want to know why the JW dont believe in the Truine God of the Bible, especially when looking at the verse I just mentioned. Where is there distintion Amos 4:11 and Gen 18:24? Those verses speak about the same things and it shows that God rained down from God...Two different persons being spoken about there bro. Why do you deny it? Read it again:

"‘I [Jehovah] overthrew you as God [Elohim] overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah...'" - Amos 4:10-11

Again Mee, where is there distintion there?

[Silas]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Amos 4:10-11

10. I sent among YOU people a pestilence in the nature of that of Egypt. With the sword I killed YOUR young men, along with the taking captive of YOUR horses. And I kept making the stink of YOUR camps ascend even into YOUR nostrils; but YOU did not come back to me,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.
11. I caused an overthrow among YOU people, like God’s overthrow of Sod´om and Go·mor´rah. And YOU came to be like a log snatched out of [the] burning; but YOU did not come back to me,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.

Read that version... Compare it to your version, ask yourself the same question again.

Who's the "I" in that verse refering to?

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Silas

lol. OK, I'll buy that. How about this one:

"‘I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt; I slew your young men by the sword along with your captured horses, and I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils; yet you have not returned to Me,' declares the LORD. ‘I [Jehovah] overthrew you as God [Elohim] overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah...'" - Amos 4:10-11

Do you see the distinction?

Sorry, but no, I don't.

Elhoim overthrew Sodom.
Jehovah overthrew Sodom. (Deut 29:23)
Jehovah and Elohim refer to the same person.

Jehovah is His name. Elohim is what He is.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Silas

How come you never answer the questions. I really want to know why the JW dont believe in the Truine God of the Bible, especially when looking at the verse I just mentioned. Where is there distintion Amos 4:11 and Gen 18:24? Those verses speak about the same things and it shows that God rained down from God...Two different persons being spoken about there bro. Why do you deny it? Read it again:

"‘I [Jehovah] overthrew you as God [Elohim] overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah...'" - Amos 4:10-11

Again Mee, where is there distintion there?

and who was it that rained fire and sulpher ............Jehovah ,the same God as the one in Amos 4;11 i for the life of me cannot see any thing to do with lots of Gods ,there is only one and that is Jehovah psalm 83;18 i think i can see a pre-concieved idea in your thoughts. just read the bible as it is without taking on pre-concieved trinity doctrines

[kenod]

A very interesting question to ask is, if the Jews were given the understanding that God is one Being/Person, can we understand God in the NT in the same way. Obviously many people can.

To say that the Son talked to the Father, that makes two; there was a Man, a Dove, and a Voice at Jesus' baptism, that makes three, is to understand God using a simplistic notion that reflects our natural thinking, and does not fully appreciate the spiritual, supernatural Being that God is.

In no way do I underestimate the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ who I believe is Almighty God.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi Mee -

In reference to my quote of John 10:30 "I and the father are one" you replied:
YES One in unity of purpose
by which you appear to qualify the word of Christ, to mean something less than it could mean, which I would suggest is a dangerous precedent.

You go on to say:
"the bible is never illogical when the correct meaning is applied..." and I can only assume 'the correct meaning' is a qualified meaning, to make Scripture 'logical' according to your own determination.



Thomas

I and the Father are one.John 10;30
Or, "at unity." Lit., "one (thing)." Gr., hen, neuter, to show oneness in cooperation read John 17;21
in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth.
Or, "at unity." Lit., "one (thing)." Gr., hen, neuter, to show oneness in cooperation..................Jesus followers are in unity with Jesus the same way that Jesus is in unity with his father. and again at 1 corinthians 3;8
Now he that plants and he that waters are one, but each [person] will receive his own reward according to his own labor
Lit., "one (thing)." Gr., hen, neuter, showing a oneness in cooperation......so we can see that this oneness does not mean that Jesus and Jehovah are the same thing it means unity and cooperation.

[Dor]

Mee is Jesus....
a. God
b. another God
c. does the Bible lie?