God, gender and women's place in abrahamic religions

[Jeannot]

Genesis 1:27 reads, "God created humans in his image. In the image of God he created them. Male and female he created them."

Logically, then, God has to be male and female, since that's the way "he" created humans--in his image.

Theologically, tho, God cannot be either male or female, since God is spirit, and male and female are biological distinctions. God has no biology.

[mansio]

If "God created humans in his image. In the image of God he created them" is wrong, then why do you quote it? To show that the Bible can have mistakes in it?

[wil]

Originally Posted by mansio

If "God created humans in his image. In the image of God he created them" is wrong, then why do you quote it? To show that the Bible can have mistakes in it?

Namaste Mansio, what is your opinion/interpretation of this? They are both included in the bible, both statements of the bible. Surely there shouldn't be anything wrong with quoting or discussing contradictary statements included...

I feel, even though I can't read the hebrew or greek and the various definitions and possible iterations of the words contained in the translation, 'In his image' I don't see G-d as male, nor looking like a male or female human. I think G-d gave us traits and characteristics of his, so we could be 'his' expression on earth.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by wil

We were touching on this topic regarding agression as well...

Somehow, I just think along with some of the maternal instincts in general women may deep down have something better to do...

Beat me up for being sexist, if it comes off that way, but I don't think I am, nor am I expressing same but I am open to learning how others percieve my thought...

Andy says 50% of those that study are women yet the vast majority in ministry are men... I see the figurehead as a man...but when it comes to the true ministry, the compassion, the prayer groups, those providing food and spiritual sustenance...largely women. Now this really sounds totally sexist, that women belong in the kitchen, and the nursery, and the prayer group, and in decorating, and flowers, and cleanup....but they gravitate to it...and maybe they do more there for the congregation, for the community at large then the preacher does from the pulpit!

Of the people I know that stick with piano lessons I'd say 80-90% are women...of the famous piano players that I know I'd say that 80-90% are men. Of the families that I know, that gather around the piano and sing together...the pianist who leads is Mom... I think men need the ego gratification of being in the public eye...and women again gravitate to a place where they can provide a connection to humanity.

Are these sexist notions, biased observations, warped anecdotes. Or do women find ways of doing what they do 'behind the scenes' not seeking the recognition, yet being there for every scraped knee, every bruised ego, providing an ear to listen and a shoulder to cry on? All stuff men (another generalization) are notoriously weak on...

There are inherent differences between men and women...praise G-d!

You're making some interesting points here Wil. This is kind of a dicey topic, though.

I tend to think that women have perfected the supporting role because for a long time that's the only role they had. On the other hand I would say that one of the genuine differences between men and women, from my observation at least, is that women are more digital and men more analog. Women are superior organizers but seem to often have trouble improvising. They don't seem to know when to break the rules.

Chris

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

You're making some interesting points here Wil. This is kind of a dicey topic, though.

I tend to think that women have perfected the supporting role because for a long time that's the only role they had. On the other hand I would say that one of the genuine differences between men and women, from my observation at least, is that women are more digital and men more analog. Women are superior organizers but seem to often have trouble improvising. They don't seem to know when to break the rules.

Chris

Interesting thinking. But some do need the lime light so to speak, and all know how to break rules. most simply choose not to. Women also have (for the most part), the social support group concept perfected, where as men definitely do not. As far as improvising goes...I don't think you've ever seen a mom stretch 100 dollars to feed a family of Seven, for two weeks...(for example)

[BlaznFattyz]

In references to God in Scripture (almost 170 references to God as the Father), there is clearly a consistent pattern of Him being referred to with masculine titles, nouns and pronouns. While God is not a man, but is a Spirit, He chose a masculine form in order to reveal Himself to mankind. Likewise, Jesus Christ, who is constantly referred to with masculine titles, nouns and pronouns took a male form while He walked on the earth. The prophets of the Old Testament and the Apostles of the New Testament refer to both God and Jesus Christ with masculine names and titles as they were inspired by the holy spirit and wrote about the nature of god. Great men like moses knew God face to face and recorded the nature of God and the means by which He revealed Himself to Moses as masculine. God chose to be revealed in this form in order for man to more easily grasp who God is.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

In references to God in Scripture (almost 170 references to God as the Father), there is clearly a consistent pattern of Him being referred to with masculine titles, nouns and pronouns. While God is not a man, but is a Spirit, He chose a masculine form in order to reveal Himself to mankind. Likewise, Jesus Christ, who is constantly referred to with masculine titles, nouns and pronouns took a male form while He walked on the earth. The prophets of the Old Testament and the Apostles of the New Testament refer to both God and Jesus Christ with masculine names and titles as they were inspired by the holy spirit and wrote about the nature of god. Great men like moses knew God face to face and recorded the nature of God and the means by which He revealed Himself to Moses as masculine. God chose to be revealed in this form in order for man to more easily grasp who God is.

There are some religious beliefs older than the Judeo/Christian faith that refer and revere God as a "she".

just a thought.

v/r

Q

[Dor]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

There are some religious beliefs older than the Judeo/Christian faith that refer and revere God as a "she".

just a thought.

v/r

Q

True also some older than Christianity that worship trees.

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

I've been staring at this post for days and I'm not sure what to make of it. Are you saying that any religion older than Christianity is silly or misguided? Or am I reading too much into your post?

[taijasi]

I would humbly suggest and submit that the presence of the Divine Feminine in early Christianity - if not also in the other Abrahamic traditions - was most certainly acknowledged, honored, and revered ... every bit as much as her now-popularized counterpart(s).

taijasi

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by taijasi

I would humbly suggest and submit that the presence of the Divine Feminine in early Christianity - if not also in the other Abrahamic traditions - was most certainly acknowledged, honored, and revered ... every bit as much as her now-popularized counterpart(s).

taijasi

It would be helpful if you could provide evidence to the same Taij. I would be very curious to see actual writings or references to such writings.

v/r

Q

[Zaakir]

men and women are equal....yet they have set places in this life told to us by god...som,eone mentioned before about men being able to be maried to more women...etc...god has deemded this acceptable...so why question...also in a lot of muslim countries and i think the world...not too sure...the women population is greater...a man may only have more than one wife if he treats them equal...if he buys one a car...he has to buy the others a car...a woman cannot have more than one husband because problems with who the father is may occur

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Knowing who the father is is only a problem if the woman (and therefore her children) is reliant upon her husband for financial support. If she is financially independent, or supported by her own family (parents, brothers, etc.), who cares who the father of her children is? And as far as having "set places told to us by god" - that only works if you accept that those strictures are indeed sent by God. If you believe that, fine for you, but don't expect everyone to accept it as readily.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Zaakir

men and women are equal....yet they have set places in this life told to us by god...som,eone mentioned before about men being able to be maried to more women...etc...god has deemded this acceptable...so why question...also in a lot of muslim countries and i think the world...not too sure...the women population is greater...a man may only have more than one wife if he treats them equal...if he buys one a car...he has to buy the others a car...a woman cannot have more than one husband because problems with who the father is may occur

The general population of women is greater on earth because of (among other things) the attrition rate of men caused by...war.

I'm not sure which scriptures you are looking at to reinforce your thought that God has deemed multiple wives as acceptable, but the only scriptures I have found that even remotely resemble that philosopy, only show that God "tolerated" with sadness man's folly at taking on more than one woman as wife. It seems to me that the taking of more than one wife at the same time contraticts the statement that men and women are equal.

And where there are two or more vying for the same "prize", there will always be competition and envy or jealousy. The very concept of polygamy is unfair to all parties concerned. Especially the children of such multiple unions. Often the result is animosity between half siblings.

In the beginning, Genesis is quite specific about marriage:

Genesis 2: 24 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."

Now as far as Scarlet's comment about not needing a father/husband, well perhaps the woman can survive that situation, but the children are greatly affected by a lack of a father. And having other family members around as a support vehicle is not the same thing, and can never take the place of "father". Children grow up with a sense of loss they often can't describe. None the less the sense of loss is very real.

my thoughts

v/r

Q

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Now as far as Scarlet's comment about not needing a father/husband, well perhaps the woman can survive that situation, but the children are greatly affected by a lack of a father. And having other family members around as a support vehicle is not the same thing, and can never take the place of "father". Children grow up with a sense of loss they often can't describe. None the less the sense of loss is very real.

Not going to argue with you on this one, Q...but I wasn't referring to how the children fare. I was responding directly to Zaakir's comment about why men could have more than one wife but women can't have more than one husband...i.e., then there would be problems with paternity and therefore inheritance. And that is something that the kids are not bothered by. Just ask my youngest niece - the only "father" she knows is her stepfather, and she couldn't care less that they're not blood relations. Matter of fact, neither could he.

(Although now that I think about it, I wonder if kids in cultures where a two-parent nuclear family is not the norm or ideal also feel the same "sense of loss".)