God, gender and women's place in abrahamic religions - Page 3

namesdontmatter · 11-11-2005, 03:12 AM

Peace and blessings of God be upon you,

Quote:

Originally Posted by heaven_id

That isn't Jesus Christ teaching, that was Paul's.

Jesus Christ's or not, that's what it says in the bible. If you're saying that something taught in the bible is false, and shouldn't be followed, then fine, but I was just showing why the church won't allow females into the clergy.

--Would a rose, by any other...?

n4h1z · 11-11-2005, 04:11 PM

Hi and peace to all....

Quote:

Originally Posted by InquisitiveInHalifax
If there is only one true God of what gender is he/she?

God has no gender. It is impossible as God is omnipotent and independant of anything. If God is a he/she...he/she would have a partner. This clearly contradicts the attribute of God. God is a sole being without the need of partners. Giving human qualities and desires to God is known as anthropomorphism which means "in the form of human". The Greek gods and goddess mythology is clear example of anthropomorphism. They were pictured as being much like men and women. The Greeks conceived their gods as being heroic, more outstanding in beauty and proportions and more powerful than humans. But these Greek gods is also endowed to human emotions and weakness; they could be envious,jelous,hateful and trivial

Quote:

Originally Posted by InquisitiveInHalifax
I believe that if there is only one true God that he/she must be above gender. So, why is it that in these monotheistic/abrahamic religions women seem to be below men?

In the holy scriptures of Abrahamaic religions, God is referred to as He/Him. But it doesn't mean that God is a masculine. In my opinion God is referred as He/Him is not more than just to show God's supremacy/superiority. As we all know throughout history, men has always been more superior than women. Men is the protector for women, the bread winner of the family, the ruler of kingdoms etc etc. This is a fact and i hope any feminist who read this please don't feel offended.

Abrahamaic religion, as far as i know never thought anything that degrades the status of women. Rather, abrahamaic recognise the status of women as very high in society.I totally understand when you say "why is it that in these monotheistic/abrahamic religions women seem to be below men?"

Let us put religion in a simpler picture. If you want to know how good the latest "Honda" sportscar is, you don't judge the driver but you judge the car's abilities and its' features. If you put an inexperienced driver behind the wheel and he bangs into the wall...who is to be blame? the car or the inexperienced driver. So if you want to judge a religion (especially monotheistic) judge it by its' holy book...Torah, Gospel, Bible, Talmud, Quran, Hadiths etc. But if you practically wants to know how good the car is...then put an expert driver behind the wheels...maybe Montoya or Raikonnen. Similarly the best example of monotheistic religion experts are
all the messenger of God; Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Lot, Jacob, Job, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and many others.

I would like to share an interesting discussion on misconception of women's status in Islam...taken from a book by Dr.Zakir Naik...titled "Common questions about Islam"...look forward for my next post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by InquisitiveInHalifax
In reading one of the other threads someone had mentioned that in the Koran it says that men may have as many wives as they are able to support and limitless concubines. This hardly seem fair to the women,
does this not make them sexual objects? Possessions even? It seems to me that there is a lack of balance here. I'm sorry if I offended anyone or misquoted the Koran, it is not my intention. This is truly troubling to me.

Never in the Quran says that a man can have as many wives he wants. Maybe the person who post the thread doesn't really read it from the Quran but rather an anti-islamic source.
I will provide a discussion relevant to this matter in my next post... taken from the same book by Dr.Zakir Naik.

Salam...

mansio · 11-11-2005, 05:25 PM

Namesdontmatter

In Genesis 1:27 "man" is said to be male and female. It proves that "man" is understood as mankind.

Quahom1 · 11-11-2005, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n4h1z

Hi and peace to all....

God has no gender. It is impossible as God is omnipotent and independant of anything. If God is a he/she...he/she would have a partner. This clearly contradicts the attribute of God. God is a sole being without the need of partners. Giving human qualities and desires to God is known as anthropomorphism which means "in the form of human". The Greek gods and goddess mythology is clear example of anthropomorphism. They were pictured as being much like men and women. The Greeks conceived their gods as being heroic, more outstanding in beauty and proportions and more powerful than humans. But these Greek gods is also endowed to human emotions and weakness; they could be envious,jelous,hateful and trivial

In the holy scriptures of Abrahamaic religions, God is referred to as He/Him. But it doesn't mean that God is a masculine. In my opinion God is referred as He/Him is not more than just to show God's supremacy/superiority. As we all know throughout history, men has always been more superior than women. Men is the protector for women, the bread winner of the family, the ruler of kingdoms etc etc. This is a fact and i hope any feminist who read this please don't feel offended.

Abrahamaic religion, as far as i know never thought anything that degrades the status of women. Rather, abrahamaic recognise the status of women as very high in society.I totally understand when you say "why is it that in these monotheistic/abrahamic religions women seem to be below men?"

Let us put religion in a simpler picture. If you want to know how good the latest "Honda" sportscar is, you don't judge the driver but you judge the car's abilities and its' features. If you put an inexperienced driver behind the wheel and he bangs into the wall...who is to be blame? the car or the inexperienced driver. So if you want to judge a religion (especially monotheistic) judge it by its' holy book...Torah, Gospel, Bible, Talmud, Quran, Hadiths etc. But if you practically wants to know how good the car is...then put an expert driver behind the wheels...maybe Montoya or Raikonnen. Similarly the best example of monotheistic religion experts are
all the messenger of God; Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Lot, Jacob, Job, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and many others.

I would like to share an interesting discussion on misconception of women's status in Islam...taken from a book by Dr.Zakir Naik...titled "Common questions about Islam"...look forward for my next post.

Never in the Quran says that a man can have as many wives he wants. Maybe the person who post the thread doesn't really read it from the Quran but rather an anti-islamic source.
I will provide a discussion relevant to this matter in my next post... taken from the same book by Dr.Zakir Naik.

Salam...

Hmmm, God is an eunich? Don't think I'd dare say that to His face...

Popeyesays · 11-11-2005, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Hmmm, God is an eunich? Don't think I'd dare say that to His face...

I think being beyond gender, does not equate to being emasculated surgically.

Regards,
Scott

Quahom1 · 11-11-2005, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

I think being beyond gender, does not equate to being emasculated surgically.

Regards,
Scott

Yes, agreed, however according to scripture, some are born that way...

n4h1z · 11-12-2005, 02:15 AM

Peace to all....

As promised...here's a short charpter taken from the book "Answer's to non-muslims' common question about Islam" by Dr. Zakir Naik (www.irf.net)...there is no effort to promote my religion here but just to share. I think this reference might help InquisitiveInHalifax question to "the number of wives in the Quran" issue which i think is very much relevant to the polygamy issue.
Hope this will help...

Taken from the book "Answer's to non-muslims' common question about Islam" by Dr. Zakir Naik (www.irf.net)...

1. POLYGAMY
Question:

Why is a man allowed to have more than one wife in Islam? i.e. why is

polygamy allowed in Islam?

Answer:

1. Definition of Polygamy

Polygamy means a system of marriage whereby one person has more than one

spouse. Polygamy can be of two types. One is polygyny where a man marries

more than one woman, and the other is polyandry, where a woman marries

more than one man. In Islam, limited polygyny is permitted; whereas polyandry

is completely prohibited.

Now coming to the original question, why is a man allowed to have more than

one wife?

2. The Qur’an is the only religious scripture in the world that says,

“marry only one”.

The Qur’an is the only religious book, on the face of this earth, that contains the

phrase ‘marry only one’. There is no other religious book that instructs men to

have only one wife. In none of the other religious scriptures, whether it be the

Vedas, the Ramayan, the Mahabharat, the Geeta, the Talmud or the Bible does

one find a restriction on the number of wives. According to these scriptures one

can marry as many as one wishes. It was only later, that the Hindu priests and

the Christian Church restricted the number of wives to one.

Many Hindu religious personalities, according to their scriptures, had multiple

wives. King Dashrat, the father of Rama, had more than one wife. Krishna had

several wives.

In earlier times, Christian men were permitted as many wives as they wished,

since the Bible puts no restriction on the number of wives. It was only a few

centuries ago that the Church restricted the number of wives to one.

Polygyny is permitted in Judaism. According to Talmudic law, Abraham had

three wives, and Solomon had hundreds of wives. The practice of polygyny

continued till Rabbi Gershom ben Yehudah (960 C.E to 1030 C.E) issued an

edict against it. The Jewish Sephardic communities living in Muslim countries

continued the practice till as late as 1950, until an Act of the Chief Rabbinate of

Israel extended the ban on marrying more than one wife.

(*Interesting Note:- As per the 1975 census of India Hindus are more

polygynous than Muslims. The report of the ‘Committee of The Status of

Woman in Islam’, published in 1975 mentions on page numbers 66 and 67 that

the percentage of polygamous marriages between the years 1951 and 1961

was 5.06% among the Hindus and only 4.31% among the Muslims. According

to Indian law only Muslim men are permitted to have more than one wife. It is

illegal for any non-Muslim in India to have more than one wife. Despite it being

illegal, Hindus have more multiple wives as compared to Muslims. Earlier, there

was no restriction even on Hindu men with respect to the number of wives

allowed. It was only in 1954, when the Hindu Marriage Act was passed that it

became illegal for a Hindu to have more than one wife. At present it is the Indian

Law that restricts a Hindu man from having more than one wife and not the

Hindu scriptures.)

Let us now analyse why Islam allows a man to have more than one wife.

3. Qur’an permits limited polygyny

As I mentioned earlier, Qur’an is the only religious book on the face of the earth

that says ‘marry only one’. The context of this phrase is the following verse from

Surah Nisa of the Glorious Qur’an:

“Marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if ye fear that

ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one.”

[Al-Qur’an 4:3]

Before the Qur’an was revealed, there was no upper limit for polygyny and

many men had scores of wives, some even hundreds. Islam put an upper limit

of four wives. Islam gives a man permission to marry two, three or four women,

only on the condition that he deals justly with them.

In the same chapter i.e. Surah Nisa verse 129 says:

“Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women....”

[Al-Qur’an 4:129]

Therefore polygyny is not a rule but an exception. Many people are under the

misconception that it is compulsory for a Muslim man to have more than one wife.

Broadly, Islam has five categories of Do’s and Don’ts:

(i) ‘Fard’ i.e. compulsory or obligatory

(ii) ‘Mustahab’ i.e. recommended or encouraged

(iii) ‘Mubah’ i.e. permissible or allowed

(iv) ‘Makruh’ i.e. not recommended or discouraged

(v) ‘Haraam’ i.e. prohibited or forbidden

Polygyny falls in the middle category of things that are permissible. It cannot be

said that a Muslim who has two, three or four wives is a better Muslim as

compared to a Muslim who has only one wife.

4. Average life span of females is more than that of males

By nature males and females are born in approximately the same ratio. A

female child has more immunity than a male child. A female child can fight the

germs and diseases better than the male child. For this reason, during the

pediatric age itself there are more deaths among males as compared to the

females.

During wars, there are more men killed as compared to women. More men die

due to accidents and diseases than women. The average life span of females

is more than that of males, and at any given time one finds more widows in the

world than widowers.

5. India has more male population than female due to female

foeticide and infanticide

India is one of the few countries, along with the other neighbouring countries, in

which the female population is less than the male population. The reason lies in

the high rate of female infanticide in India, and the fact that more than one

million female foetuses are aborted every year in this country, after they are

identified as females. If this evil practice is stopped, then India too will have

more females as compared to males.........continued in next post.....

n4h1z · 11-12-2005, 02:26 AM

Continue from previous post.....

6. World female population is more than male population

In the USA, women outnumber men by 7.8 million. New York alone has one million more females as compared to the number of males, and of the male population of New York one-third are gays i.e sodomites. The U.S.A as a whole has more than twenty-five million gays. This means that these people do not wish to marry women. Great Britain has four million more females as compared to males. Germany has five million more females as compared to males. Russia has nine million more females than males. God alone knows how many million more females there are in the whole world as compared to males.

7. Restricting each and every man to have only one wife is not practical

Even if every man got married to one woman, there would still be more than thirty million females in U.S.A who would not be able to get husbands (considering that America has twenty five million gays). There would be more than four million females in Great Britain, 5 million females in Germany and nine million females in Russia alone who would not be able to find a husband. Suppose my sister happens to be one of the unmarried women living in USA, or suppose your sister happens to be one of the unmarried women in USA. The only two options remaining for her are that she either marries a man who already has a wife or becomes 'public property'. There is no other option. All those who are modest will opt for the first. Most women would nto like to share their husband with other women. But in Islam when the situation deems it really neccessary Muslim women in due faith could bear a small personal loss to prevent a greater loss of letting other Muslim sisters becoming 'public properties'.

8. Marring a married man preferable to becoming 'public property'

In Western society, it is common for a man to have mistresses and/or multiple extra-marital affairs, in which case, the woman leads a disgraceful, unprotected life. The same society, however, cannot accept a man having more than one wife, in which women retain their honourable, dignified position in society and lead a protected life. Thus the only two options before a woman who cannot find a husband is to marry a married man or to become 'public property'. Islam prefers giving women the honourable position by permitting the first option and disallowing the second. There are several other reasons, why Islam has permitted limited polygyny, but it is mainly to protect the modesty of women.

2. POLYANDRY

Question:

If a man is allowed to have more than one wife, then why does Islam prohibit a woman from having more than one husband?

Answer:

A lot of people, including some Muslims, question the logic of allowing Muslim men to have more than one spouse while denying the same ‘right’ to women. Let me first state emphatically, that the foundation of an Islamic society is justice and equity. Allah has created men and women as equal, but with different capabilities and different responsibilities. Men and women are different, physiologically and psychologically. Their roles and responsibilities are different. Men and women are equal in Islam, but not identical. Surah Nisa’ Chapter 4 verses 22 to 24 gives the list of women with whom Muslim men can not marry. It is further mentioned in Surah Nisa’ Chapter 4 verse 24 “Also (prohibited are) women already married” The following points enumerate the reasons why polyandry is prohibited in Islam:

1. If a man has more than one wife, the parents of the children born of such marriages can easily be identified. The father as well as the mother can easily be identified. In case of a woman marrying more than one husband, only the mother of the children born of such marriages will be identified and not the father. Islam gives tremendous importance to the identification of both parents, mother and father. Psychologists tell us that children who do not know their parents, especially their father undergo severe mental trauma and disturbances. Often they have an unhappy childhood. It is for this reason that the children of prostitutes do not have a healthy childhood. If a child born of such wedlock is admitted in school, and when the mother is asked the name of the father, she would have to give two or more names! I am aware that recent advances in science have made it possible for both the mother and father to be identified with the help of genetic testing. Thus this point which was applicable for the past may not be applicable for the present.

2. Man is more polygamous by nature as compared to a woman.

3. Biologically, it is easier for a man to perform his duties as a husband despite having several wives. A woman, in a similar position, having several husbands, will not find it possible to perform her duties as a wife. A woman undergoes several psychological and behavioral changes due to different phases of the menstrual cycle.

4. A woman who has more than one husband will have several sexual partners at the same time and has a high chance of acquiring venereal or sexually transmitted diseases which can also be transmitted back to her husband even if all of them have no extra-marital sex. This is not the case in a man having more than one wife, and none of them having extra-marital sex. The above reasons are those that one can easily identify. There are probably many more reasons why Allah, in His Infinite Wisdom, has prohibited polyandry.

n4h1z · 11-12-2005, 02:51 AM

Peace to all....

Here's another chapter from the book which might be usefull too...Its on the wearing of Hijab among Muslim women. I thought it might be useful to InquisitiveInHalifax's question on "why women seems to be below men in monotheistic religion"....I hope this reference is not out of topic...if so, i'am open for correction...
Peace...

Taken from the book "Answer's to non-muslims' common question about Islam" by Dr. Zakir Naik (www.irf.net)

HIJAB FOR WOMEN

Question:
Why does Islam degrade women by keeping them behind the veil?

Answer:
The status of women in Islam is often the target of attacks in the secular media. The ‘hijab’ or the Islamic dress is cited by many as an example of the ‘subjugation’ of women under Islamic law. Before we analyze the reasoning behind the religiously mandated ‘hijab’, let us first study the status of women in societies before the advent of Islam

1. In the past women were degraded and used as objects of lust
The following examples from history amply illustrate the fact that the status of women in earlier civilizations was very low to the extent that they were denied basic human dignity:

a. Babylonian Civilization:
The women were degraded and were denied all rights under the Babylonian law. If a man murdered a woman, instead of him being punished, his wife was put to death.

b. Greek Civilization:
Greek Civilization is considered the most glorious of all ancient civilizations. Under this very ‘glorious’ system, women were deprived of all rights and were looked down upon. In Greek mythology, an ‘imaginary woman’ called ‘Pandora’ is the root cause of misfortune of human beings. The Greeks considered women to be subhuman and inferior to men. Though chastity of women was precious, and women were held in high esteem, the Greeks were later overwhelmed by ego and sexual perversions. Prostitution became a regular practice amongst all classes of Greek society.

c. Roman Civilization:
When Roman Civilization was at the zenith of its ‘glory’, a man even had the right to take the life of his wife. Prostitution and nudity were common amongst the Romans.

d. Egyptian Civilization:
The Egyptian considered women evil and as a sign of a devil.

e. Pre-Islamic Arabia:
Before Islam spread in Arabia, the Arabs looked down upon women and very often when a female child was born, she was buried alive.

2. Islam uplifted women and gave them equality and expects them to maintain their status.
Islam uplifted the status of women and granted them their just rights 1400 years ago. Islam expects women to maintain their status.

Hijab for men

People usually only discuss ‘hijab’ in the context of women. However, in the Glorious Qur’an, Allah (swt) first mentions ‘hijab’ for men before ‘hijab’ for the women. The Qur’an mentions in Surah Noor:

“Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.”

[Al-Qur’an 24:30]

The moment a man looks at a woman and if any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he should lower his gaze.

Hijab for women.

The next verse of Surah Noor, says:

“ And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons...”
[Al-Qur’an 24:31]

3. Six criteria for Hijab.

According to Qur’an and Sunnah there are basically six criteria for observing hijab:

1. Extent:
The first criterion is the extent of the body that should be covered. This is different for men and women. The extent of covering obligatory on the male is to cover the body at least from the navel to the knees. For women, the extent of covering obligatory is to cover the complete body except the face and the hands up to the wrist. If they wish to, they can cover even these parts of the body. Some scholars of Islam insist that the face and the hands are part of the obligatory extent of ‘hijab’. All the remaining five criteria are the same for men and women.

2. The clothes worn should be loose and should not reveal the figure.

3. The clothes worn should not be transparent such that one can see through them.

4. The clothes worn should not be so glamorous as to attract the opposite sex.

5. The clothes worn should not resemble that of the opposite sex.

6. The clothes worn should not resemble that of the unbelievers i.e. they should not wear clothes that are specifically identities or symbols of the unbelievers’ religions.

4. Hijab includes conduct and behaviour among other things

Complete ‘hijab’, besides the six criteria of clothing, also includes the moral
conduct, behaviour, attitude and intention of the individual. A person only
fulfilling the criteria of ‘hijab’ of the clothes is observing ‘hijab’ in a limited sense. ‘Hijab’ of the clothes should be accompanied by ‘hijab’ of the eyes, ‘hijab’ of the
heart, ‘hijab’ of thought and ‘hijab’ of intention. It also includes the way a person walks, the way a person talks, the way he behaves, etc.

5. Hijab prevents molestation
The reason why Hijab is prescribed for women is mentioned in the Qur’an in the
following verses of Surah Al-Ahzab:
“O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women
that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when
abroad); that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”
[Al-Qur’an 33:59]

The Qur’an says that Hijab has been prescribed for the women so that they are recognized as modest women and this will also prevent them from being molested.
to be continued in next post....

n4h1z · 11-12-2005, 02:55 AM

From previous post....

6. Example of twin sisters

Suppose two sisters who are twins, and who are equally beautiful, walk down the street. One of them is attired in the Islamic hijab i.e. the complete body is covered, except for the face and the hands up to the wrists. The other sister is wearing western clothes, a mini skirt or shorts. Just around the corner there is a hooligan or ruffian who is waiting for a catch, to tease a girl. Whom will he tease? The girl wearing the Islamic Hijab or the girl wearing the skirt or the mini? Naturally he will tease the girl wearing the skirt or the mini. Such dresses are an indirect invitation to the opposite sex for teasing and molestation. The Qur’an rightly says that hijab prevents women from being molested.

7. Capital punishment for the rapists

Under the Islamic shariah, a man convicted of having raped a woman, is given capital punishment. Many are astonished at this ‘harsh’ sentence. Some even say that Islam is a ruthless, barbaric religion! I have asked a simple question to hundreds of non-Muslim men. Suppose, God forbid, someone rapes your wife, your mother or your sister. You are made the judge and the rapist is brought in front of you. What punishment would you give him? All of them said they would put him to death. Some went to the extent of saying they would torture him to death. To them I ask, if someone rapes your wife or your mother you want to put him to death. But if the same crime is committed on somebody else’s wife or daughter you say capital punishment is barbaric. Why should there be double standards?

8. Western society falsely claims to have uplifted women

Western talk of women’s liberalization is nothing but a disguised form of exploitation of her body, degradation of her soul, and deprivation of her honour. Western society claims to have ‘uplifted’ women. On the contrary it has actually degraded them to the status of concubines, mistresses and society butterflies who are mere tools in the hands of pleasure seekers and sex marketeers,hidden behind the colourful screen of ‘art’ and ‘culture’.

9. USA has one of the highest rates of rape

United States of America is supposed to be one of the most advanced countries of the world. It also has one of the highest rates of rape in any country in the world. According to a FBI report, in the year 1990, every day on an average 1756 cases of rape were committed in U.S.A alone. Later another report said that on an average everyday 1900 cases of rapes are committed in USA. The year was not mentioned. May be it was 1992 or 1993. May be the Americans got ‘bolder’ in the following years. Consider a scenario where the Islamic hijab is followed in America. Whenever a man looks at a woman and any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he lowers his gaze. Every woman wears the Islamic hijab, that is the complete body is covered except the face and the hands upto the wrist. After this if any man commits rape he is given capital punishment. I ask you, in such a scenario, will the rate of rape in America increase, will it remain the same, or will it decrease?

10. Implementation of Islamic Shariah will reduce the rate of rapes

Naturally as soon as Islamic Shariah is implemented positive results will be inevitable. If Islamic Shariah is implemented in any part of the world, whether it is America or Europe, society will breathe easier. Hijab does not degrade a woman but uplifts a woman and protects her modesty and chastity.

Tao_Equus · 11-12-2005, 06:52 AM

The passages referring to gender imbalances in the UK are entirely inacurate as the 1991 population census clearly shows. The difference in gender is less than 1% and is largely a factor of greater longevity in woman. http://www.statistics.gov.uk/glance/#population
This is the central pillar in his argument supporting polygamy and I suspect sex ratio statistics from the other quoted nations will be similairly flawed. The fact is in Islamic states if you have the cash you can do what you want and all the arguments trying to preach the morality of it are nonsense.

I think to most westerners view point Islam is extremely discriminatory to women. And in terms of the substantial freedoms western women have fought for from the time of the suffragettes they can be seen as barbaric. The whole emphasis is on women covering up to avoid lust or temptation.....so women have to cover up because men cant control themselves....that in itself is a fundamental discrimination forcing one group to pay the price for the others weakness. Most ordinary muslim women are afraid to talk to a non muslim man, not because they have lustful thoughts but because they fear their men. I have seen this palpable fear myself many times and it disgusts me that people should be so afraid. And I wont even bother to get started on the muslim practice of female genital mutilation. To sum up, trying to convince westerners that Islam or Muslims treat their women as EQUAL citizens is like trying to perseuade us the Earth is made of marzipan.

TE

mansio · 11-12-2005, 08:51 AM

Zakir Naik is a favorite of Muslim apologetics.
Muslims take much pains at trying to defend positions other cultures resent very much, as polygamy, early marriage for girls, or the veil.
I'm amazed that he says the Quran is the only scriptures that says marry only one woman and that Christians were permitted polygamy until the Church (which one?) forbade it.
He thinks the best apologetics is to assert the contrary of reality. People who copy-paste his web pages should read them before.

hunain · 11-12-2005, 03:01 PM

Christians Church even say you shoud not marry

hunain · 11-12-2005, 03:47 PM

Quote:

The passages referring to gender imbalances in the UK are entirely inacurate as the 1991 population census clearly shows. The difference in gender is less than 1% and is largely a factor of greater longevity in woman. http://www.statistics.gov.uk/glance/#population
This is the central pillar in his argument supporting polygamy and I suspect sex ratio statistics from the other quoted nations will be similairly flawed. The fact is in Islamic states if you have the cash you can do what you want and all the arguments trying to preach the morality of it are nonsense.

I think to most westerners view point Islam is extremely discriminatory to women. And in terms of the substantial freedoms western women have fought for from the time of the suffragettes they can be seen as barbaric. The whole emphasis is on women covering up to avoid lust or temptation.....so women have to cover up because men cant control themselves....that in itself is a fundamental discrimination forcing one group to pay the price for the others weakness. Most ordinary muslim women are afraid to talk to a non muslim man, not because they have lustful thoughts but because they fear their men. I have seen this palpable fear myself many times and it disgusts me that people should be so afraid. And I wont even bother to get started on the muslim practice of female genital mutilation. To sum up, trying to convince westerners that Islam or Muslims treat their women as EQUAL citizens is like trying to perseuade us the Earth is made of marzipan.

Islam is the fastest growing religion of the world .Those peopel who are converting to islam majority of them are women if islam do not treat men and women equally so why more women are converting to islam than men ?

please dont judge islam by watching muslims. if you want to judge islam than judge by athentic source Quran and Sahih HADITH of the prophet (PEACE AND BLESSSING OF ALL MIGHTY ALLAH (GOD) BE UPON HIM)

11-11-2005, 05:25 PM	#33 (permalink)
mansio General Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: France Posts: 193	Re: God, gender and women's place in abrahamic religions Namesdontmatter In Genesis 1:27 "man" is said to be male and female. It proves that "man" is understood as mankind.

11-12-2005, 02:15 AM	#37 (permalink)
n4h1z Thirst for 'Ilmi... Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Cat City, Malaysia Posts: 58	Re: God, gender and women's place in abrahamic religions Peace to all.... As promised...here's a short charpter taken from the book "Answer's to non-muslims' common question about Islam" by Dr. Zakir Naik (www.irf.net)...there is no effort to promote my religion here but just to share. I think this reference might help InquisitiveInHalifax question to "the number of wives in the Quran" issue which i think is very much relevant to the polygamy issue. Hope this will help... Taken from the book "Answer's to non-muslims' common question about Islam" by Dr. Zakir Naik (www.irf.net)... 1. POLYGAMY Question: Why is a man allowed to have more than one wife in Islam? i.e. why is polygamy allowed in Islam? Answer: 1. Definition of Polygamy Polygamy means a system of marriage whereby one person has more than one spouse. Polygamy can be of two types. One is polygyny where a man marries more than one woman, and the other is polyandry, where a woman marries more than one man. In Islam, limited polygyny is permitted; whereas polyandry is completely prohibited. Now coming to the original question, why is a man allowed to have more than one wife? 2. The Qur’an is the only religious scripture in the world that says, “marry only one”. The Qur’an is the only religious book, on the face of this earth, that contains the phrase ‘marry only one’. There is no other religious book that instructs men to have only one wife. In none of the other religious scriptures, whether it be the Vedas, the Ramayan, the Mahabharat, the Geeta, the Talmud or the Bible does one find a restriction on the number of wives. According to these scriptures one can marry as many as one wishes. It was only later, that the Hindu priests and the Christian Church restricted the number of wives to one. Many Hindu religious personalities, according to their scriptures, had multiple wives. King Dashrat, the father of Rama, had more than one wife. Krishna had several wives. In earlier times, Christian men were permitted as many wives as they wished, since the Bible puts no restriction on the number of wives. It was only a few centuries ago that the Church restricted the number of wives to one. Polygyny is permitted in Judaism. According to Talmudic law, Abraham had three wives, and Solomon had hundreds of wives. The practice of polygyny continued till Rabbi Gershom ben Yehudah (960 C.E to 1030 C.E) issued an edict against it. The Jewish Sephardic communities living in Muslim countries continued the practice till as late as 1950, until an Act of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel extended the ban on marrying more than one wife. *(Interesting Note:- As per the 1975 census of India Hindus are more polygynous than Muslims. The report of the ‘Committee of The Status of Woman in Islam’, published in 1975 mentions on page numbers 66 and 67 that the percentage of polygamous marriages between the years 1951 and 1961 was 5.06% among the Hindus and only 4.31% among the Muslims. According to Indian law only Muslim men are permitted to have more than one wife. It is illegal for any non-Muslim in India to have more than one wife. Despite it being illegal, Hindus have more multiple wives as compared to Muslims. Earlier, there was no restriction even on Hindu men with respect to the number of wives allowed. It was only in 1954, when the Hindu Marriage Act was passed that it became illegal for a Hindu to have more than one wife. At present it is the Indian Law that restricts a Hindu man from having more than one wife and not the Hindu scriptures.) Let us now analyse why Islam allows a man to have more than one wife. 3. Qur’an permits limited polygyny As I mentioned earlier, Qur’an is the only religious book on the face of the earth that says ‘marry only one’. The context of this phrase is the following verse from Surah Nisa of the Glorious Qur’an: “Marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one.” [Al-Qur’an 4:3] Before the Qur’an was revealed, there was no upper limit for polygyny and many men had scores of wives, some even hundreds. Islam put an upper limit of four wives. Islam gives a man permission to marry two, three or four women, only on the condition that he deals justly with them. In the same chapter i.e. Surah Nisa verse 129 says: “Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women....” [Al-Qur’an 4:129] Therefore polygyny is not a rule but an exception. Many people are under the misconception that it is compulsory for a Muslim man to have more than one wife. Broadly, Islam has five categories of Do’s and Don’ts: (i) ‘Fard’ i.e. compulsory or obligatory (ii) ‘Mustahab’ i.e. recommended or encouraged (iii) ‘Mubah’ i.e. permissible or allowed (iv) ‘Makruh’ i.e. not recommended or discouraged (v) ‘Haraam’ i.e. prohibited or forbidden Polygyny falls in the middle category of things that are permissible. It cannot be said that a Muslim who has two, three or four wives is a better Muslim as compared to a Muslim who has only one wife. 4. Average life span of females is more than that of males By nature males and females are born in approximately the same ratio. A female child has more immunity than a male child. A female child can fight the germs and diseases better than the male child. For this reason, during the pediatric age itself there are more deaths among males as compared to the females. During wars, there are more men killed as compared to women. More men die due to accidents and diseases than women. The average life span of females is more than that of males, and at any given time one finds more widows in the world than widowers. 5. India has more male population than female due to female foeticide and infanticide** India is one of the few countries, along with the other neighbouring countries, in which the female population is less than the male population. The reason lies in the high rate of female infanticide in India, and the fact that more than one million female foetuses are aborted every year in this country, after they are identified as females. If this evil practice is stopped, then India too will have more females as compared to males.........continued in next post.....

11-12-2005, 02:26 AM	#38 (permalink)
n4h1z Thirst for 'Ilmi... Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Cat City, Malaysia Posts: 58	Re: God, gender and women's place in abrahamic religions Continue from previous post..... 6. World female population is more than male population In the USA, women outnumber men by 7.8 million. New York alone has one million more females as compared to the number of males, and of the male population of New York one-third are gays i.e sodomites. The U.S.A as a whole has more than twenty-five million gays. This means that these people do not wish to marry women. Great Britain has four million more females as compared to males. Germany has five million more females as compared to males. Russia has nine million more females than males. God alone knows how many million more females there are in the whole world as compared to males. 7. Restricting each and every man to have only one wife is not practical Even if every man got married to one woman, there would still be more than thirty million females in U.S.A who would not be able to get husbands (considering that America has twenty five million gays). There would be more than four million females in Great Britain, 5 million females in Germany and nine million females in Russia alone who would not be able to find a husband. Suppose my sister happens to be one of the unmarried women living in USA, or suppose your sister happens to be one of the unmarried women in USA. The only two options remaining for her are that she either marries a man who already has a wife or becomes 'public property'. There is no other option. All those who are modest will opt for the first. Most women would nto like to share their husband with other women. But in Islam when the situation deems it really neccessary Muslim women in due faith could bear a small personal loss to prevent a greater loss of letting other Muslim sisters becoming 'public properties'. 8. Marring a married man preferable to becoming 'public property' In Western society, it is common for a man to have mistresses and/or multiple extra-marital affairs, in which case, the woman leads a disgraceful, unprotected life. The same society, however, cannot accept a man having more than one wife, in which women retain their honourable, dignified position in society and lead a protected life. Thus the only two options before a woman who cannot find a husband is to marry a married man or to become 'public property'. Islam prefers giving women the honourable position by permitting the first option and disallowing the second. There are several other reasons, why Islam has permitted limited polygyny, but it is mainly to protect the modesty of women. 2. POLYANDRY Question: If a man is allowed to have more than one wife, then why does Islam prohibit a woman from having more than one husband? Answer: A lot of people, including some Muslims, question the logic of allowing Muslim men to have more than one spouse while denying the same ‘right’ to women. Let me first state emphatically, that the foundation of an Islamic society is justice and equity. Allah has created men and women as equal, but with different capabilities and different responsibilities. Men and women are different, physiologically and psychologically. Their roles and responsibilities are different. Men and women are equal in Islam, but not identical. Surah Nisa’ Chapter 4 verses 22 to 24 gives the list of women with whom Muslim men can not marry. It is further mentioned in Surah Nisa’ Chapter 4 verse 24 “Also (prohibited are) women already married” The following points enumerate the reasons why polyandry is prohibited in Islam: 1. If a man has more than one wife, the parents of the children born of such marriages can easily be identified. The father as well as the mother can easily be identified. In case of a woman marrying more than one husband, only the mother of the children born of such marriages will be identified and not the father. Islam gives tremendous importance to the identification of both parents, mother and father. Psychologists tell us that children who do not know their parents, especially their father undergo severe mental trauma and disturbances. Often they have an unhappy childhood. It is for this reason that the children of prostitutes do not have a healthy childhood. If a child born of such wedlock is admitted in school, and when the mother is asked the name of the father, she would have to give two or more names! I am aware that recent advances in science have made it possible for both the mother and father to be identified with the help of genetic testing. Thus this point which was applicable for the past may not be applicable for the present. 2. Man is more polygamous by nature as compared to a woman. 3. Biologically, it is easier for a man to perform his duties as a husband despite having several wives. A woman, in a similar position, having several husbands, will not find it possible to perform her duties as a wife. A woman undergoes several psychological and behavioral changes due to different phases of the menstrual cycle. 4. A woman who has more than one husband will have several sexual partners at the same time and has a high chance of acquiring venereal or sexually transmitted diseases which can also be transmitted back to her husband even if all of them have no extra-marital sex. This is not the case in a man having more than one wife, and none of them having extra-marital sex. The above reasons are those that one can easily identify. There are probably many more reasons why Allah, in His Infinite Wisdom, has prohibited polyandry.

11-12-2005, 02:51 AM	#39 (permalink)
n4h1z Thirst for 'Ilmi... Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Cat City, Malaysia Posts: 58	Re: God, gender and women's place in abrahamic religions Peace to all.... Here's another chapter from the book which might be usefull too...Its on the wearing of Hijab among Muslim women. I thought it might be useful to InquisitiveInHalifax's question on "why women seems to be below men in monotheistic religion"....I hope this reference is not out of topic...if so, i'am open for correction... Peace... Taken from the book "Answer's to non-muslims' common question about Islam" by Dr. Zakir Naik (www.irf.net) HIJAB FOR WOMEN Question: Why does Islam degrade women by keeping them behind the veil? Answer: The status of women in Islam is often the target of attacks in the secular media. The ‘hijab’ or the Islamic dress is cited by many as an example of the ‘subjugation’ of women under Islamic law. Before we analyze the reasoning behind the religiously mandated ‘hijab’, let us first study the status of women in societies before the advent of Islam 1. In the past women were degraded and used as objects of lust The following examples from history amply illustrate the fact that the status of women in earlier civilizations was very low to the extent that they were denied basic human dignity: a. Babylonian Civilization: The women were degraded and were denied all rights under the Babylonian law. If a man murdered a woman, instead of him being punished, his wife was put to death. b. Greek Civilization: Greek Civilization is considered the most glorious of all ancient civilizations. Under this very ‘glorious’ system, women were deprived of all rights and were looked down upon. In Greek mythology, an ‘imaginary woman’ called ‘Pandora’ is the root cause of misfortune of human beings. The Greeks considered women to be subhuman and inferior to men. Though chastity of women was precious, and women were held in high esteem, the Greeks were later overwhelmed by ego and sexual perversions. Prostitution became a regular practice amongst all classes of Greek society. c. Roman Civilization: When Roman Civilization was at the zenith of its ‘glory’, a man even had the right to take the life of his wife. Prostitution and nudity were common amongst the Romans. d. Egyptian Civilization: The Egyptian considered women evil and as a sign of a devil. e. Pre-Islamic Arabia: Before Islam spread in Arabia, the Arabs looked down upon women and very often when a female child was born, she was buried alive. 2. Islam uplifted women and gave them equality and expects them to maintain their status. Islam uplifted the status of women and granted them their just rights 1400 years ago. Islam expects women to maintain their status. Hijab for men People usually only discuss ‘hijab’ in the context of women. However, in the Glorious Qur’an, Allah (swt) first mentions ‘hijab’ for men before ‘hijab’ for the women. The Qur’an mentions in Surah Noor: “Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.” [Al-Qur’an 24:30] The moment a man looks at a woman and if any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he should lower his gaze. Hijab for women. The next verse of Surah Noor, says: “ And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons...” [Al-Qur’an 24:31] 3. Six criteria for Hijab. According to Qur’an and Sunnah there are basically six criteria for observing hijab: 1. Extent: The first criterion is the extent of the body that should be covered. This is different for men and women. The extent of covering obligatory on the male is to cover the body at least from the navel to the knees. For women, the extent of covering obligatory is to cover the complete body except the face and the hands up to the wrist. If they wish to, they can cover even these parts of the body. Some scholars of Islam insist that the face and the hands are part of the obligatory extent of ‘hijab’. All the remaining five criteria are the same for men and women. 2. The clothes worn should be loose and should not reveal the figure. 3. The clothes worn should not be transparent such that one can see through them. 4. The clothes worn should not be so glamorous as to attract the opposite sex. 5. The clothes worn should not resemble that of the opposite sex. 6. The clothes worn should not resemble that of the unbelievers i.e. they should not wear clothes that are specifically identities or symbols of the unbelievers’ religions. 4. Hijab includes conduct and behaviour among other things Complete ‘hijab’, besides the six criteria of clothing, also includes the moral conduct, behaviour, attitude and intention of the individual. A person only fulfilling the criteria of ‘hijab’ of the clothes is observing ‘hijab’ in a limited sense. ‘Hijab’ of the clothes should be accompanied by ‘hijab’ of the eyes, ‘hijab’ of the heart, ‘hijab’ of thought and ‘hijab’ of intention. It also includes the way a person walks, the way a person talks, the way he behaves, etc. 5. Hijab prevents molestation The reason why Hijab is prescribed for women is mentioned in the Qur’an in the following verses of Surah Al-Ahzab: “O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad); that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” [Al-Qur’an 33:59] The Qur’an says that Hijab has been prescribed for the women so that they are recognized as modest women and this will also prevent them from being molested. to be continued in next post....

11-12-2005, 02:55 AM	#40 (permalink)
n4h1z Thirst for 'Ilmi... Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Cat City, Malaysia Posts: 58	Re: God, gender and women's place in abrahamic religions From previous post.... 6. Example of twin sisters Suppose two sisters who are twins, and who are equally beautiful, walk down the street. One of them is attired in the Islamic hijab i.e. the complete body is covered, except for the face and the hands up to the wrists. The other sister is wearing western clothes, a mini skirt or shorts. Just around the corner there is a hooligan or ruffian who is waiting for a catch, to tease a girl. Whom will he tease? The girl wearing the Islamic Hijab or the girl wearing the skirt or the mini? Naturally he will tease the girl wearing the skirt or the mini. Such dresses are an indirect invitation to the opposite sex for teasing and molestation. The Qur’an rightly says that hijab prevents women from being molested. 7. Capital punishment for the rapists Under the Islamic shariah, a man convicted of having raped a woman, is given capital punishment. Many are astonished at this ‘harsh’ sentence. Some even say that Islam is a ruthless, barbaric religion! I have asked a simple question to hundreds of non-Muslim men. Suppose, God forbid, someone rapes your wife, your mother or your sister. You are made the judge and the rapist is brought in front of you. What punishment would you give him? All of them said they would put him to death. Some went to the extent of saying they would torture him to death. To them I ask, if someone rapes your wife or your mother you want to put him to death. But if the same crime is committed on somebody else’s wife or daughter you say capital punishment is barbaric. Why should there be double standards? 8. Western society falsely claims to have uplifted women Western talk of women’s liberalization is nothing but a disguised form of exploitation of her body, degradation of her soul, and deprivation of her honour. Western society claims to have ‘uplifted’ women. On the contrary it has actually degraded them to the status of concubines, mistresses and society butterflies who are mere tools in the hands of pleasure seekers and sex marketeers,hidden behind the colourful screen of ‘art’ and ‘culture’. 9. USA has one of the highest rates of rape United States of America is supposed to be one of the most advanced countries of the world. It also has one of the highest rates of rape in any country in the world. According to a FBI report, in the year 1990, every day on an average 1756 cases of rape were committed in U.S.A alone. Later another report said that on an average everyday 1900 cases of rapes are committed in USA. The year was not mentioned. May be it was 1992 or 1993. May be the Americans got ‘bolder’ in the following years. Consider a scenario where the Islamic hijab is followed in America. Whenever a man looks at a woman and any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he lowers his gaze. Every woman wears the Islamic hijab, that is the complete body is covered except the face and the hands upto the wrist. After this if any man commits rape he is given capital punishment. I ask you, in such a scenario, will the rate of rape in America increase, will it remain the same, or will it decrease? 10. Implementation of Islamic Shariah will reduce the rate of rapes Naturally as soon as Islamic Shariah is implemented positive results will be inevitable. If Islamic Shariah is implemented in any part of the world, whether it is America or Europe, society will breathe easier. Hijab does not degrade a woman but uplifts a woman and protects her modesty and chastity.

11-12-2005, 06:52 AM	#41 (permalink)
Tao_Equus Lest we forget Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Edinburgh, scotland Posts: 2,934	Re: God, gender and women's place in abrahamic religions The passages referring to gender imbalances in the UK are entirely inacurate as the 1991 population census clearly shows. The difference in gender is less than 1% and is largely a factor of greater longevity in woman. http://www.statistics.gov.uk/glance/#population This is the central pillar in his argument supporting polygamy and I suspect sex ratio statistics from the other quoted nations will be similairly flawed. The fact is in Islamic states if you have the cash you can do what you want and all the arguments trying to preach the morality of it are nonsense. I think to most westerners view point Islam is extremely discriminatory to women. And in terms of the substantial freedoms western women have fought for from the time of the suffragettes they can be seen as barbaric. The whole emphasis is on women covering up to avoid lust or temptation.....so women have to cover up because men cant control themselves....that in itself is a fundamental discrimination forcing one group to pay the price for the others weakness. Most ordinary muslim women are afraid to talk to a non muslim man, not because they have lustful thoughts but because they fear their men. I have seen this palpable fear myself many times and it disgusts me that people should be so afraid. And I wont even bother to get started on the muslim practice of female genital mutilation. To sum up, trying to convince westerners that Islam or Muslims treat their women as EQUAL citizens is like trying to perseuade us the Earth is made of marzipan. TE

11-12-2005, 08:51 AM	#42 (permalink)
mansio General Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: France Posts: 193	Re: God, gender and women's place in abrahamic religions Zakir Naik is a favorite of Muslim apologetics. Muslims take much pains at trying to defend positions other cultures resent very much, as polygamy, early marriage for girls, or the veil. I'm amazed that he says the Quran is the only scriptures that says marry only one woman and that Christians were permitted polygamy until the Church (which one?) forbade it. He thinks the best apologetics is to assert the contrary of reality. People who copy-paste his web pages should read them before.

11-12-2005, 03:01 PM	#43 (permalink)
hunain Interfaith Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: PAKISTAN Posts: 32	Re: God, gender and women's place in abrahamic religions Christians Church even say you shoud not marry