God as Self, God as Other

Paladin · 11-15-2006, 05:23 AM

Lately I've been struggling to understand the difference between these two concepts and their relationship in general. I understand both the simplicity and the complex layers involved in inquiring into the nature of self,and God.
Right now, I see God and Self as non separate, yet there is the nagging almost unreachable sense of God as "other". Again viewing God as cosmic reality, or absolute reality, and the sense of being separate isn't what I'm talking about here, or maybe it ultimately is. I am open to input here, as this is something that passionatley intrigues me.

Peace

Mark

lunamoth · 11-15-2006, 05:33 AM

An idea from Bishop Spong: self and God are separate more like being on the ends of a continuum, rather than being disconnected. The picture I got was of a string, you have one end and the other end, but they are both part of the same whole. I don't really go along with that.

I think that I am a panentheist, if I'm understanding that term correctly. The phrase I find deeply meaningful is "In Him I live and move and have my being." There's me, I'm in God, yet God is Something More. I won't pretend that I understand this logically. God is present and transcendent at the same time.

Paladin · 11-15-2006, 05:41 AM

Hi Luna,

Yeah, thats what I'm rather clumsily trying to get at. The pantheist view is that God is in all things, so therefore no separation. Maybe it's the desire for union that drives me on so, yet within me I feel a presence that is at once part of me ("I am that") and just beyond the reach of my mind, like a shadow, more felt than seen is this "Otherness" or "that which is more than I am. Perhaps this is only viewing the absolute through the everyday ego mind that senses it's eventual demise, but I gotta tell ya there is an ache within me to "Know" that otherness. Does this make sense?

Peace
Mark

lunamoth · 11-15-2006, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paladin

Hi Luna,

Yeah, thats what I'm rather clumsily trying to get at. The pantheist view is that God is in all things, so therefore no separation. Maybe it's the desire for union that drives me on so, yet within me I feel a presence that is at once part of me ("I am that") and just beyond the reach of my mind, like a shadow, more felt than seen is this "Otherness" or "that which is more than I am. Perhaps this is only viewing the absolute through the everyday ego mind that senses it's eventual demise, but I gotta tell ya there is an ache within me to "Know" that otherness. Does this make sense?

Peace
Mark

Just to clarify, I did not say pantheist, but panentheist. I do not equate God with the universe, but I would say that the universe is in God.

Marcus Borg phrased it "God is the More who is right here."

I think that 'otherness' is, in a way, an illusion. A side-effect of 'the fall.' Before you ask, I understand the fall metaphorically, and rich in meaning. The main idea germane to this conversation is that things are not they way they are meant to be, all is not well in the Garden. We sense this in our alienation from God and from each other. Our friend Abogdo would say that it is a by-product of our self-consciousness (not sure I can fully go there...). But I do agree that we experience alienation and brokenness and we long for healing.

Maybe the mystical experience is meeting God in the middle of the string?

luna

Paladin · 11-15-2006, 06:11 AM

My apologies for the misunderstanding, I haven't heard that term before, but it is quite interesting thanks Luna.
Sure do miss ol Abogado del diablo too

My wife and I were talking about this tonight at dinner, and that helps to clarify things for me a bit. Having a visceral experience of self and other when it comes to God, is a lot like running up against a plate glass wall. In truth there might not be a wall at all, and as Wu Wei said, that we are like wasps traversing across a pane of glass not knowing the other half is open. For the last ten years my spirituality has taken on such a physical expression in that all of me is involved, the intellect, the heart, and the body. When I run into things like this along this "pathless path" as it were it feels very much like losing my bearings in the woods.

Peace

Mark

seattlegal · 11-15-2006, 07:16 AM

Could "God as Other" actually be God acknowledging our individual free-will?

cavalier · 11-15-2006, 07:41 AM

Couldn't God be self, and/or other, depending on your perspective?

Good question Mark, I am also curious to see other people's ideas.

Prober · 11-15-2006, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I think that 'otherness' is, in a way, an illusion. A side-effect of 'the fall.' Before you ask, I understand the fall metaphorically, and rich in meaning. The main idea germane to this conversation is that things are not they way they are meant to be, all is not well in the Garden. We sense this in our alienation from God and from each other. Our friend Abogdo would say that it is a by-product of our self-consciousness (not sure I can fully go there...). But I do agree that we experience alienation and brokenness and we long for healing.

Maybe the mystical experience is meeting God in the middle of the string?

luna

I have to agree that otherness is an illusion. And I would say that it is a by-product of our ego.

In the beginning, there was no separateness from God. It is the knowledge of good and evil that leads to this separation.

I believe that this knowledge is the origin of the ego.

Ego creates itself, which makes all "not self" the other. The only separateness we experience is our ego taking us away from God.

When we kill our egos, the illusion is wiped away and we instantly recognize God in everything because we see ourselves in everything.

Prober · 11-15-2006, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prober

When we kill our egos, the illusion is wiped away and we instantly recognize God in everything because we see ourselves in everything.

To clarify - I don't believe God is everything, just that his presence is in everything.

17th Angel · 11-15-2006, 03:41 PM

[quote=cavalier;79722]Couldn't God be self, and/or other, depending on your perspective?

Hey new avatar Cavalier? You can smile? Nice.

JosephM · 11-15-2006, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paladin

(Snip)
Maybe it's the desire for union that drives me on so, yet within me I feel a presence that is at once part of me ("I am that") and just beyond the reach of my mind, like a shadow, more felt than seen is this "Otherness" or "that which is more than I am. Perhaps this is only viewing the absolute through the everyday ego mind that senses it's eventual demise, but I gotta tell ya there is an ache within me to "Know" that otherness. Does this make sense?

Peace
Mark

It makes a lot of sense to me Mark. And it is just beyond the reach of your mind as you suppose. It would be more felt than seen because it it formless yet is the source of all form.That ache within you is the ego mind that senses its eventual demise as you have felt. One cannot break through or even begin a serious quest without the actualization of this process by the grace of God and once it has started in your life, which it has quite some time ago, the outcome is sure and your consent of will has been both seen and heard. It will happen and you will understand and not by words. Even this ache will have to be surrendered but your path is sure and peace is yours.

Love in Christ,
JM

Paladin · 11-15-2006, 04:17 PM

Thanks {{Joe}}, that is very helpful.
I remember even as a child I sensed this, but thought of it as: "Why am I here and not with God in heaven like they teach in sunday school?" The whole individualization of consciousness seemed like a bad idea to me

There was only temporary relief to be found in religion, and agnosticism felt like denial. In the practice of Zen I found at least a deer trail in the woods, because of the "dont know mind" and the willingness to subvert self. In becoming vulnerable and soft this way at least able to say with some sincerity, "speak lord, thy servant heareth"

Peace
Mark

JosephM · 11-15-2006, 04:26 PM

Mark,

If there were one inspired writing that I could prescribre for you at this time which you already are aware of but would find much refuge in, it would be.

"Trust in God with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding"

Kind of like falling off a log backwards and trusting you will be apprehended.

Love in Christ,
JM

Prober · 11-15-2006, 04:28 PM

I find Buddhism a great comfort and companion to Christianity.

JosephM · 11-15-2006, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prober

I find Buddhism a great comfort and companion to Christianity.

I have found the same Prober. Buddhism though also devided into many sects seems to have retained much of the early teachings with minimum distortion of principles. I have found that there are two approaches from the mind path. One is to tame the ego which looks good to others but can be quite a long and drawn out affair. And the other to simply transcend the ego by a shift in identification rather than trying to tame it. Both in my view will work but the second appears more on the rough side to those witnessing it. Just some thoughts on the subject.

Peace,
JM