God and Life on Mars

[I, Brian]

Those masses of text and links were removed. One step at a time, please, oscar. No need to dump everything too quickly. We can discuss point by point as required.

[oscar]

Okey, I understand. But it would be better if you first told me. I didn't know, I spend of lot of time to write those things and search for the benefit of other readers. Now, everything is gone. And I won't write no more. I think I better withdraw. You know, the behaviour code doesn't run unilaterally. Both of us have to be respectful, not only us but the moderators. You erased many things here and in other place.

[I, Brian]

Almost nothing is ever deleted here - material is simply moved to a private area named the "Sin Bin". I can e-mail you the info if you wish.

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by QueryGuy

Question: If irrefutable signs of life were one day found on Mars (either living or in fossil form) how would this effect your theology?

I'm sorry if some valid quotes from scriptures were not shared - I know some poeple who collect such quotes (see link just below.) I know there are at least a few that speak to the issue. Personally I think it confirming but of what is it confirming??

If I may: http://bahai-seti.org/bahai-seti/ and hit "Sacred Writings on Life in the Universe" on the left. Turns out both Baha'i and Moslem sacred literature refer to the question of life (indeed intelligent life) in the universe beyond ourselves. I might elaborate that in all of the discussion human qualities and defining virtues nothing has ever spoken of bipedalism or opposable thumbs, or brain/body mass ratios etc. - just things like Reason, Honesty, Faithfulness, Trustworthiness, etc....

Baha'i References:

"Thou hast, moreover, asked Me concerning the nature of the celestial spheres. To comprehend their nature, it would be necessary to inquire into the meaning of the allusions that have been made in the Books of old to the celestial spheres and the heavens, and to discover the character of their relationship to this physical world, and the influence which they exert upon it. Every heart is filled with wonder at so bewildering a theme, and every mind is perplexed by its mystery. God, alone, can fathom its import. The learned men, that have fixed at several thousand years the life of this earth, have failed, throughout the long period of their observation, to consider either the number or the age of the other planets. Consider, moreover, the manifold divergencies that have resulted from the theories propounded by these men. Know thou that every fixed star hath its own planets, and every planet its own creatures, whose number no man can compute."

"O people! I swear by the one true God! This is the Ocean out of which all seas have proceeded, and with which every one of them will ultimately be united. From Him all the Suns have been generated, and unto Him they will all return. Through His potency the Trees of Divine Revelation have yielded their fruits, every one of which hath been sent down in the form of a Prophet, bearing a Message to God's creatures in each of the worlds whose number God, alone, in His all-encompassing Knowledge, can reckon. This He hath accomplished through the agency of but one Letter of His Word, revealed by His Pen--a Pen moved by His directing Finger-- His Finger itself sustained by the power of God's Truth."

"'Abdu'l-Bahá stated there are other worlds than ours which are inhabited by beings capable of knowing God."

"The earth has its inhabitants, the water and the air contain many living beings and all the elements have their nature spirits, then how is it possible to conceive that these stupendous stellar bodies are not inhabited? Verily, they are peopled, but let it be known that the dwellers accord with the elements of their respective spheres. These living beings do not have states of consciousness like unto those who live on the surface of this globe: the power of adaptation and environment moulds their bodies and states of consciousness, just as our bodies and minds are suited to our planet."


Islam

Qur'án 42:29, Al Shura, "Consultation

And among His Signs
Is the creation of
The heavens and the earth,
And the living creatures
That He has scattered
Through them: and He
Has Power to gather them
Together when He wills.

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

On saying that, though, NASA has a rather unhealthy obsession with pushing the "life on Mars" issue. I fear that there is far more marketing than grounded realism in a lot coming out of their press releases.

I would heartily recommend watching the video broahcasts themselves rather than the reports in the news.

NASA has an archive here
http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/...o_Archive.html

And some of them are here though you have to wade through many other things.
http://www.c-span.org/VideoArchives....airs=Issue,ST;

I have to say I was much more impressed with the briefings than I was with the news bits and I've been following all this fairly closely.

[Shih Yo Chi]

This is slightly off topic, but I had a thought while looking at this thread. It came after I found this map of the universe that scales from the visible universe to the local stellar group. Stars in the visible universe: 30 billion trillion. Started thinking about the grand scale of the universe.

http://www.anzwers.org/free/universe/index.html

I remember reading that many of the elements that make up the earth were formed in stars and in supernova. I'm wondering if the "seeds" of life could somehow be a part of the fabric of the universe. At some point, if we believe in the Big Bang, all matter was confined into a very small space, and on the scale that we can observe, the universe seems remarkably consistant. It should be consistant on a smaller (planetary) scale as well. That might mean that life similar to us would exist wherever conditions were similar, and life might exist in many forms in many places. To me this would be evidence of God's work, not against it. I just don't understand why this would be any less miraculous than some kind if instantaneous creation, but that's just me.

I guess where I'm trying to go with this is that if we could prove the universe was devoid of intelligent life, other than ourselves, it would challenge my conception of God. I think God's presence is in the rest of the universe as much as it is in our little corner.

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by Shih Yo Chi

To me this would be evidence of God's work, not against it. I just don't understand why this would be any less miraculous than some kind if instantaneous creation, but that's just me.

I guess where I'm trying to go with this is that if we could prove the universe was devoid of intelligent life, other than ourselves, it would challenge my conception of God. I think God's presence is in the rest of the universe as much as it is in our little corner.

I agree. I think the challenge is for those who take things a bit more literally - that God created *man* and *woman* (as opposed to something Else) or the issue if all essential truth of the universe is revealed in, for example, the Genesis story and it has no light to shed on the origin of life elsewhere - with no access to a literal Garden of Eden.

But for Baha'is God is everywhere... and nowhere "O SON OF MAN!
Wert thou to speed through the immensity of space and traverse the expanse of heaven, yet thou wouldst find no rest save in submission to Our command and humbleness before Our Face."

Now by this I don't attribute undue limitation to the Bible/Torah - the origin stories thereof are still holding lessons to learn from albeit taken in other ways by some.

[wil]

Back in the '90s it I believe there was a statement from the Catholic Church that if life were discovered and if it we could communicate with it, and it were sentient beings...than we should send missionaries to save them.

More recently it was discussed if it were determined that life from another planet was what started life on this planet...'well, we can concede that the Garden of Eden need not have been on earth...'

And I just caught part of a special last night where they were discussing creating a new life form in the lab...shooting for not carbon based.

And to thing I was worried about GMO's and GM plant/animals....yikes.

namaste

[BlaznFattyz]

for all we know this particular bible is written for us on earth only. whether there is alternate universes, in parallel dimensions or from other times, if god is the same god here, then he would have spoken to each civilization in its early forms to establish a relationship, then how that world made its choices, their bible would be tailored to it. kind of how like one countrys culture differs from anothers even on the same planet! i think he would make all lifeforms with souls the same way, that is in his image that make choices so they could believe in him through belief and faith. that is if there is other human lifeforms, anything else would be for his amusement only i imagine.

[wil]

for all we know this particular bible is written for us on earth only. whether there is alternate universes, in parallel dimensions or from other times, if god is the same god here, then he would have spoken to each civilization in its early forms to establish a relationship, then how that world made its choices, their bible would be tailored to it. kind of how like one countrys culture differs from anothers even on the same planet! i think he would make all lifeforms with souls the same way, that is in his image that make choices so they could believe in him through belief and faith. that is if there is other human lifeforms, anything else would be for his amusement only i imagine.

I think that is an absolutely wonderful explanation of how various religions and belief systems occurred on this planet. Each 'prophet' receiving their understanding of God based on their taloring when God spoke to them personally and thier experiences...

I also find the concept that the God of Mars, or the God of another galaxy, or universe or parallel universe would be a different God just wild. Doesn't play with my omnipresent viewpoint.... gotta put my bias to bed and contemplate this....

namaste,

[arthra]

As I recall Ray Bradbury's "Martian Chronicles" had some interesting scenes about religion on the dusty red planet...

- Art

[arthra]

I got in trouble on a previous post here for my citing an essay but I think a useful term that could be suggested is Exotheology and means the examination of theological issues as they pertain to Extraterrestrial Intelligence (ETI).

Wikipedia has it:

Exotheology can be described as pursuing a theology that adequately answers the questions that are raised by the fact of our extraterrestrial neighbors and their intervention, both benign and malevolent. It is seeking a cosmologically consistent religious outlook.


This is a favorite topic of mine.

- Art

[sara[h]ng]

Did you really mean speciation (the change from one species into a genetically different one)? Or creation of some kind of life from proteins, water, etc?

-Sarah

[sara[h]ng]

Oops. That was a really old part of the thread that I replied to..



- Sarah