Glossolalia

[InLove]

Hey s (name erosion-even the little dot has been swept away over time)

Originally Posted by Snoopy

It may be real, but what is the cause? What is the horse and what is the cart? Are they even connected? OK, I'm going straight onto de-caff I promise.

I don't have any traditional scientific explanations, although there may be some out there. I can only give you what I understand from the Biblical accounts.

The second chapter of Acts gives the account of Pentecost, which (if I'm not mistaken) is said to have occurred fifty days after the ascension of the Christ. Jesus had promised His disciples that He would send "a comforter" to show them what to do in His physical absence. He had instructed them to wait until that time, and then they would know how to continue. On that day, the believers were gathered together in prayer, and the Holy Spirit descended upon them, and they spoke in languages they had never learned. Jerusalem was a multi-cultured place, and therefore many different languages were spoken there. According to the account, many people heard the Gospel that day in their own languages. Many Christians today believe that this was a one-time event, and the purpose of speaking in tongues has past. I don't think I agree with that idea (anymore).

One reason I re-examined the issue is because later on in Acts 19, there is an account of Paul healing someone by the laying on of hands in prayer and petition, resulting not only in physical healing, but in the response from the "patient" who proceeded to speak in an unknown language in praise and thanksgiving. I don't know whether this was simply an earthly language with which the person was unfamiliar, possibly for the benefit of observers, or if it was another type of spiritual language.

In Corinthians, chapters 12 and 13, Paul expounds on the concept of speaking in tongues. His take seems to be that if there is no interpreter around to tell others what is being said, then perhaps it would be better to refrain from this activity in public. He seems to separate "prophesying" from "speaking in tongues". He does call it a gift, but he also says it has no worth if it is not practiced in love and toward the edification of others. But I am not sure that even Paul could quite nail all this down, even though I think that for the times he lived in, he did what he was given to do by the same Spirit.

Another reason I took a second look at the subject has to do with my friend that I mentioned in an above post. I have known her for a long time, and she is not given to nonsense (well--not in matters such as this, anyway) She is one of the most honest people I have ever met, and she doesn't align herself with any particular religion, although she does believe in God and loves Jesus. I remember when her son was critically ill and the doctors could not figure out what was wrong. Her husband had grown up in the Lutheran tradition (which I don't think is usually keen on speaking in tongues--I might be wrong). Out of desperation, they took the little boy to the clergy at the local Lutheran church, and these folks prayed and laid hands on him--in private. The boy (my godson) was completely well within 24 hours. Coincidence? Anyway, she was so very thankful for this, and about a week after all this happened, she was just going about her business in the kitchen, contemplating the wonder of it and thanking God in her heart. She said that all of a sudden, the most beautiful words she has ever heard came out from her. She wasn't afraid, but somewhat surprised. She ran out to her husband in the yard, and said something to him in that language. And then it stopped. It has never happened since. So, you know--I gotta think that perhaps there is still a purpose for it.

I think that so far, science has managed only to relate glossolalia to a kind of self-imposed trance. But I think that sometimes our understanding of science is limited. I think we just don't understand the science of The Spirit.

Anyway--that's my take on the "horse and cart" (and I don't even have any coffee this morning! . Hope it is somewhat helpful.

InPeace,
InLove

[InLove]

Hi--apparently it is too late to edit my last post. The references to Corinthians--that's I Corinthians. Sorry about the omission there.

InPeace,
InLove

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Originally Posted by InLove

...Her husband had grown up in the Lutheran tradition (which I don't think is usually keen on speaking in tongues--I might be wrong). Out of desperation, they took the little boy to the clergy at the local Lutheran church, and these folks prayed and laid hands on him--in private.

Oh no, you are soooooo right - coming as I do from a long line of professional Lutherans, I can pretty authoritatively say that Lutherans don't go in for that sort of thing. Speaking in tongues, that is. I don't recall a concrete reason ever being given, though I could ask my mom or uncle if anyone really wants the Lutheran theological basis. The idea I picked up was that it's sort of undignified, and the suspicion is that it's done just to prove to observers how Spirit-filled one is. (I personally don't agree with this statement - at least not anymore.)
I have heard of a few other instances where Lutherans have done laying on of hands for the purpose of healing - they've also always been in private, never during a church service. I think it has to do with the "praying in a closet" passage in the Bible.

My only (and very odd) experience with a glossolalist: Once when I worked in a department store, a man whose purchases I was ringing up said to me (I don't remember how it came up, but I think it was kind of out of the blue) that if I'd never spoken in tongues I had never really experienced the Spirit. When I politely disagreed he told me I needed to reread the Bible. I just thought it was a really odd conversation to start with your cashier.

Side story which I think is cool - a (Lutheran) church I briefly attended during college had a tradition for Pentecost Sunday - they rounded up everyone in the church who spoke a foreign language and during the point in the service where the passage from Acts is read, it was simultaneously read in as many different foreign languages as possible.

[flowperson]

Does anyone here think that this might be a mythical carryover from the Tower of Babel story ?

Remember that the point of the myth was to demonstrate that the spirit descends to separate the people in understanding by making them speak in differing languages.

Maybe this happens as a universal spiritual phenomenon from time to time and the myth of it is the only continuity factor here that carries forward in time.

flow....

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Does anyone here think that this might be a mythical carryover from the Tower of Babel story ?

Remember that the point of the myth was to demonstrate that the spirit descends to separate the people in understanding by making them speak in differing languages.

Maybe this happens as a universal spiritual phenomenon from time to time and the myth of it is the only continuity factor here that carries forward in time.

flow....

I've thought about this, too. But there is one gleeming difference.

The Tower of Babel incident served to confound people. It caused the work on the tower to cease because of a language barrier, and everyone thus scattered.

Pentacost, however, brought people together and everyone understood in their own language.

Now for a geek caveat. There was a Star Trek (The Original Series) episode where this happened where they meet this alien who spoke to them over the open channel. Kirk heard it in English, Chekov in Russian, Sulu in Japanese, Spock in Vulcanese, and Uhura in Swahali. I believe that this is similiar to what happened at Pentacost.

[wil]

I've zero, zip, no knowledge of this. I can't/don't count what I've seen on TV or in Borat.

So what interests me is the concept of the interpretter.

Is the interpretter able to speak/interpret at will?

Can the interpretter write the language?

Or is the interpretter only able to interpret during the speaking of someone else?

Does the speaker have any idea what they are saying?

Is it possible that the Mormon information is similar to this?

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by InLove

I don't have any traditional scientific explanations, although there may be some out there. I can only give you what I understand from the Biblical accounts....

...Anyway--that's my take on the "horse and cart" (and I don't even have any coffee this morning! . Hope it is somewhat helpful.

InPeace,
InLove

Hey InL (!)

Thanks for taking the time to post all this; so now I know! Your anecdote sent a little shiver up my spine.

s

[InLove]

Ugh! Lost my post, and then the phone rang. Hope the third try is charmed.

You are welcome, SNOOPY (There, all fixed, but I cannot guarantee that the process will not start all over again). Now that you are healed, let me know if your speech process changes, okay?

I am certainly no expert in this area. I would love to hear from someone who has actually experienced this phenomenon personally, as long as it is someone who understands and can practice the code of conduct. I'd hate to see this worthwhile conversation turn into a slugfest.

Wil, it is 1 Corinthians 14 that talks in depth about interpreters. I would start with chapter 13, though, for a better understanding. Can't go wrong with chapter 13, IMO.

Flow and Dondi--I have had thoughts in this area, as well. I guess one's view on the comparisons/contrasts with Babel would be different according to background, studies, etc.

Scarlet, thanks. I didn't think that the Lutheran view usually embraced speaking in tongues. But then again, I never thought I would see the issue so highly debated among the Baptists. By the way, the article I recently read concerning the Baptist quandry was called "Tongues Tied". (Thought that was cute.) That's a cool way that the church you attended in college celebrated Pentecost. I've never heard of that before.

Well, hopefully I won't lose this post. I know it has something to do with lack of coffee.

InPeace,
InLove

[Caimanson]

Wil, I can only speak of what I've seen and witnessed, because there is only so much in the bible on these matters, it is an experiential thing.

My response to your questions is based on the assumption that we are talking of spontaneous spirit led tongues and interpretation.
Please remember that one can willfully pray in tongues, but that imo is not the "real" thing. And also that there are people there faking interpretations as well.

Originally Posted by wil

Is the interpreter able to speak/interpret at will?

No, the one who speaks does it spontaneously, and the one who interprets is also aroused spontaneously.

Can the interpretter write the language?

No, because there isn't any literal equivalent, is not like a language that you could learn or translate. There is a lot of emotion and intonation going on, more than just "words".

Or is the interpretter only able to interpret during the speaking of someone else?

I've seen people interpreting what they are mumbling.

Does the speaker have any idea what they are saying?

Yes, at least a gut feeling.

Is it possible that the Mormon information is similar to this?

I have no idea what the mormons say on this matter.


I am skeptic as to where the tongues come from, but even if it is a 100% human manifestation I think it is useful and powerful as a cathartic and expressive medium.

[flowperson]

I believe that I've experienced something akin to speaking in tongues, but it involved what is called automatic writing.

I knew that I was receiving privileged information and I knew that I was writing it down. But I had no idea of how or why it had invaded my brain. That's what it felt like. Like something foreign, that also cared for me and had chosen me for this work, just decided that I was to be his/her instrument. It was quite analogous to being a musical instrument in some ways I suppose.

The wind was blowing through me and I was creating art/music/written language as a result. I'm pretty sure that my son has also had similar experiences creating works of symbolic art with acrylics and found objects, but he hasn't talked to me about it yet. His artwork, in part, expanded upon the thematic substance of the things I was led to write about. But he hadn't read any of what I'd written.

Everything else was obliterated and pushed aside and the messages being given to me took priority. For me it was a traumatic experience to know that at this time I really was not in control of what I was writing. Later, when I edited and refined the information it was all me. These experience along with a near death episode changed me in significant ways...for the better I think.

flow....

[flowperson]

duplicate post

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Dondi

I've thought about this, too. But there is one gleeming difference.

The Tower of Babel incident served to confound people. It caused the work on the tower to cease because of a language barrier, and everyone thus scattered.

Pentacost, however, brought people together and everyone understood in their own language.

The speaking in tongues without an interpreter could certainly serve as a source of confusion within the congregation! I guess as Ecclesiastes 3 says, there is a time to break down, and a time to build up: a time to keep silence, and a time to speak.

[InLove]

Flow--

Re: auto-writing. I have experienced this as well. I have always just called it "inspiration", and I still can see it that way. But during that time, it was truly intense and profuse and abundant. And when I peruse those works, I am always filled with wonder--even the words I wrote declare that they are not mine. Every now and then, a situation arises wherein something from these writings is utilized in the most amazing way. I always know when to present them.

I am thinking that, as Caimanson and Seattlegal have noted, there is a time for everything.

InPeace,
InLove

[Dondi]

I will go out on a limb and say that I have personnally experienced this phenomena of tongues.

By let me preface something here in regards to this. Though I asked Christ into my life in a Baptist church at around age 12, in my later teen years I drifted from God, until I was 22. When I turned back to God, I has experienced the most powerful Love that I ever could imagine. My heart just melted into His mercy, forgiveness, and grace as I opened my heart to Him. Unlike my salvation at 12, this experience showed my truly how much God loved me and accepted me back.

I began looking for a church and an aquaintence invited me to a Pentacostal church. Needless to say, it was quite a jolt to hear people speak in tongues for the first time. I really didn't know what to make of it. I was a bit skeptical. Yet, there was that same sense of love with these people that just clicked with me. I could tell that the members had a geniune love for God and love for people. And being naive in my new found faith, I started attending this church.

The unfortunate thing about this church is that they were caught up in a rather exclusive st of doctrines that stated that in order to be saved, one must be baptized in Jesus' name (as opposed to the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in which I was baptized at age 12), based on Acts 2:38. The reason for this is that they had a bizarre belief that Jesus was all three members of the Trinity. They built their whole doctrine around that one verse. Furthermore, in order to be saved, in addition to be baptized in Jesus' name, one must be baptised in the Holy Spirit...with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

As I said, I was naive in my new found faith. Yet I was quite concerned about this doctrine. it presented the horrifying thought that my Mom, Dad, Sister, and Brother were really not saved, though they all accepted Christ in their lives at one time or another. That bothered me much and I kept that in the back of my mind.

Despite this, I had such a hunger for God that I continually sought God in this church. And I made such wonderful Christian friends there, that were quite unlike my secular friends. And one thing they taught me was how to pray and intercede to God. I found when I prayed that God laid on my heart burdens for those that I prayed for. W'd have hour long prayer sessions praying for those that we knoew, those that we didn't know, pastors and missionaries around the world, souls to be saved, prayed for our President and our leaders. And God really put a burden on my heart for people and I really tried to reach people at work for Christ. Mind you, though, I didn't yet pray in tongues.

But they kept pressing me to get "saved' according to their beliefs. So the first thing I did was get baptised again...this time in Jesus' name. OK, no big deal here. i didn't mind getting dunked again.

So the only thing that was left was to get baptised by the Holy Spirit (which I thought that I was that night I turned back to God and felt God's love). No, no, they said, you have to speak in other tongues, they said.

One visiting evangelist called on people to come to the alter so that he could pray for them, so I went down so that I could get saved. He asked me if I was baptised in Jesus' name, and I said yes. then he placed his hand on my forehead and started praying for me. And I felt tjis sensation like electricity flowing out of his hand, into my head and flowing right through me. It was the same sensation of love that I felt before.

But I still didn't speak in tongues. And I was disappointed as to why. Did not god want to save me? My pastor assured me that it will come. She (yes, she) even prayed with me several times and patted my chin to invoke the tongues. But nothing happened. Days passed, and still nothing. Needless to say, I was a bit upset.

But then I thought that maybe I was trying to hard and not allowing God to speak through me. That I was trying to force it out. If God wanted to control my tongue, then I have to relinquish control. So one time I just knelt down started praying for people like I usually do and then my words just came out all different. I stopped suddenly wondering if it wasn't a fluke. So then i started praying normal again, and it happened again. I was speaking what sounded like gobbly-gook. I had no understanding what I was speaking. Yet when I spoke it, the Spirit of Love came over me and filled me again. I realized that I must have spoken in tongues and I got up and ran to my pastor and told her what happened. She then proclaimed me saved.

To make a long story short, I ened up leaving that church because i couldn't agree with the doctrine that you must speak in tongues to be saved.

That's when I started going to the charsmatic Baptist church. I still spoke in tongues from time to time, but it occurred when I wasn't expecting it druing my prayers.

I'm going to stop this post now, but my next post will be my analysis of what I believe now about tongues.

[flowperson]

Thank you for your posts InLove and Dondi. You have brought enlightenment to me regarding my experiences. I'm looking forward to more here sharing what they have experienced in the ways of spiritual motivation.

flow....