giving up all the good stuff

Awaiting_the_fifth · 05-16-2005, 01:05 AM

When I first became a buddhist I was aware of the effective prohibitions on meat, alcohol and drugs, and even "sexual misconduct" whatever that is.

The monk who introduced me to buddhism said that it was not necessary for me to quit anything immediately, which I was relieved to hear.

Since then, I have stopped eating red meat and stopped smoking. Its hard because I really like smoking and I LOVE STEAK!!!! Eventually I hope to give up all meat and then at some time in the future, alcohol (NOOOOOOO!!!!)

I would like to hear the opinions of other buddhists here, how important is it to give up these things? (and what is sexual misconduct?)

Vajradhara · 05-16-2005, 05:24 PM

Namaste Awaiting...

with regards to being a vegetarian... it is not specifically mandated that one be a vegetarian within the overall Buddhist praxis, there are certain schools that will insist on this sort of dietary regulation.

perhaps more to the point, the cultural millieu in which the Buddha arose does not exist any longer, thus, the our understanding of the Precepts needs to be in tune with out culture. in this case, regarding meat, it is highly unlikely that we would ever meet the requirements for the approved consumption of flesh. one of the biggest aspects of it is that the meat cannot have been specifically killed for consumption (some say for the express consumption of the monk/nun). back in the Buddhas day, is was quite frequently the case that a farmer or village would kill a tiger or other predator to protect his flock or farm or village. thus, the animal was not killed for consumption, though the farmer is selling the meat in the market and a monk/nun could eat it, provided that their school didn't prohibit it.

nevertheless, the other factor to be considered is the geography of the region in which Buddhism is being taught. when Buddhism spread to the Mongols in Central Asia, there wasn't much in the way of agriculture by which to sustain them, thus, meat consumption continued and continues to this day in the Central Asia nations.

regarding alcohol and so forth... the broad category is "intoxicants". however, it is not because Buddhists believe that these things are inherently wrong or bad for you and so forth. rather when a being is intoxicated, especially a monk, it becomes much easier to breech a Precept and thus to help the Sangha with its practice, intoxicants are cautioned against.

sexual misconduct includes a whole wide variety of things, from any sort of non-consentual sex to adultry and everything between. essentially, this precept has two ways to be seen, depending on if you are a monk/nun or a layperson. within the monastic setting, any form of sexual contact would be sexual misconduct whilst for the laiety the prohibited bits are things that would normally be against the law and some things which are not, like adultry, in my view.

Nick · 05-18-2005, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

When I first became a buddhist I was aware of the effective prohibitions on meat, alcohol and drugs, and even "sexual misconduct" whatever that is.

The monk who introduced me to buddhism said that it was not necessary for me to quit anything immediately, which I was relieved to hear.

Since then, I have stopped eating red meat and stopped smoking. Its hard because I really like smoking and I LOVE STEAK!!!! Eventually I hope to give up all meat and then at some time in the future, alcohol (NOOOOOOO!!!!)

I would like to hear the opinions of other buddhists here, how important is it to give up these things? (and what is sexual misconduct?)

Rather than give up things I like or want, I've found that my desire for such things has diminished. I'd put that down to practice. To give up stuff you really have a craving for, and endure the discomfort, might be less fruitful than working on eliminating the craving. I'm lucky in that I packed up meat and smoking easily, and do not really want to go back there. I have a weakness for fish and chips, but I try and think of the killing aspects and the fact that North sea fish population is on the point of collapse. I'm finding that those reasons not to eat fish are starting to outweigh the cravings for the taste sensation, which only lasts 10-15 minutes anyway.

Booze is the last one to fall. Having spent most of my life contributing to the UK binge drinking culture, mainly because that was the sort of social life I had/have, I'm finding I look forward less and less to a big night out on the town. Before I even go out, I start to think how dull and jaded I will feel during the next few days afterwards, and that seems to outweigh the pleasure I may have during that night.

I find that I'm not really trying that hard to give up the "good" stuff; it just doesn't seem so good any more.

I, Brian · 05-18-2005, 11:50 PM

Hi Nick, and welcome to CR.

As for abstinence - I can only sincerely hope that Buddhists get something from the experience. As a non-Buddhist, being a tee-total non-smoking vegetarian can feel immensely boring.

earl · 05-19-2005, 03:35 AM

I, Brian-I was a shoddy Christian in early life & have been a shoddy buddhist in later life.Tomorrow night is my brandy & cigar night.

Earl

Tariki · 05-24-2005, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by earl

I, Brian-I was a shoddy Christian in early life & have been a shoddy buddhist in later life.Tomorrow night is my brandy & cigar night.

Earl

To be serious - chin in, head up, deep breath - I think the recognition of our own "shoddiness".........or "sloppyness".........can be the key to many things.

(Always with the proviso of St Paul...........something about not slopping all the more that grace may abound!)

I think "giving up the good stuff" - and thoughts concerning it - can be illuminated by Eckharts little phrase, quoted so often by myself in so many differing contexts.............."They can truly enjoy the feast who would just as willingly fast"

In this sense the "fast" is commendable! When "grasped" as a means of "attainment" I'm not really quite so sure..............

Saponification · 06-11-2005, 03:34 AM

The answers to your questions are largely based on your personal beliefs. Remember that Buddhism says you don't have to do anything. The precepts are choices, not orders, threats or commands.

Being a vegetarian is a choice. Many Buddhists are not vegetarian. Shakyamuni Buddha was not. Follow the Middle Path: if you're going to eat meat, don't eat meat of an animal that's been killed just for you. Eating a Big Mac is acceptable, but going to a Chinese restaurant and selecting a fish from the tank is not.

As for sexuality, that is, again, a personal choice. According a monk I have spoken to, premartial sex is a non-issue. He said that despite this, relationships should be based on mutual respect, love and compassion. Bold, italic and underline that last part. They should not be based on the wrong sort of attachment.

According to what I believe, having sex with a long-time partner is acceptable. But random encounters? No. Again, follow the Middle Path. You shouldn't over indulge, but there's no need to abstain.

Remember that certain schools of Buddhism believe that engaging in "bad" behaviour is fine and can be a learning experience provided you know that it is bad. I don't nessecarily agree with that, but it's up to you.

nonreligiouspersona · 06-15-2005, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

When I first became a buddhist I was aware of the effective prohibitions on meat, alcohol and drugs, and even "sexual misconduct" whatever that is.

The monk who introduced me to buddhism said that it was not necessary for me to quit anything immediately, which I was relieved to hear.

Since then, I have stopped eating red meat and stopped smoking. Its hard because I really like smoking and I LOVE STEAK!!!! Eventually I hope to give up all meat and then at some time in the future, alcohol (NOOOOOOO!!!!)

I would like to hear the opinions of other buddhists here, how important is it to give up these things? (and what is sexual misconduct?)

Even though some may say I'm not a buddhist, I do practice "not so godly stuff" buddhist teaching. So from my very little knowledge of buddhism I'll give this one a try.

From my point of view, it seems that you're quite attached to these earthly materials. These earthly material works like a drug called nicotine. You take one, then twice, and so on.. When you're ready to quit, it's hard because your body has been built on them, with them, and adapted toward them. That goes the same with the earthly things, except it's mental.

For giving up meat, that's easy since considering there are many alternatives in the present time. It could've been a problem back in the days, but not anymore.

And also when you say "giving up all the good stuff", I think what you should've said was, "giving up all the things that I believe to be good stuff".

I don't know of sexual misconduct. Maybe it's rape, cheating, forced sex?

Saponification · 06-15-2005, 01:11 AM

Misconduct is open to interpretation. Of course it includes adultry, and if you look at it from a Middle Path point of view it would include over indulgence. You can be attached to sexual gratification in the same way you can be addicted to good food, expensive clothes and so on. As I said before, relationships should primarily be based on love, compassion and mutual respect. Sex should be an expression of that, it shouldn't be enjoyed without those things. By that definition I'd say random encounters are a no go, but it's really up to you.

Alcohol clouds mindfulness, that's why it's a problem, that's why it's said that not even a drop should touch the lips of a Buddhist. I've given up caffeine since I started practising - I was addicted to it and it really messed with my head. I used to have a 600mL bottle of Cola every day, and now I've been clean for a fair bit over a month. Well past the stage of cravings.

Again, this is all up to you.

Awaiting_the_fifth · 06-16-2005, 01:48 PM

Well its too late for me now.

My diet was just not varied enough to cut out so much, my health was suffering so I've gone back to eating meat. I still want to give these things up one day but it will have to be a much more gradual process.