Get together-ism

[China Cat Sunflower]

You guys got me thinking. In Love mentioned about how hard it is to get the congregation to sing anything new or different. I think in church there are maybe twenty songs in the hymnal that everyone knows. Everyone is happy singing those twenty songs. But I remember, every once in a while some ambitious song service leader trying to get everyone to sing another, unfamiliar song. That never really went over well.

I think that there's something to the idea of "roots" music. I guess I'm not a traditional Christian, but I still like the traditional gospel songs, the Christmas carols, and even modern praise music. It's not really about the lyrical content, but more about the kind of harmony that ties into something really deep in me. The traditional Christian hymns, the black gospel sound with the awsome Hammond B-3 organ and just the right amount of tremelo, even the stuff on Lawrence Welk: waterd down show tunes and etc., are part of the roots music for me. But what's weird is that I also have an unexplainable affinity with african stuff and I absolutely love Rhajastani style singing. But I have no interest in, or affinity with anything celtic.

Hmmm...

Chris

[China Cat Sunflower]

You guys got me thinking. In Love mentioned about how hard it is to get the congregation to sing anything new or different. I think in church there are maybe twenty songs in the hymnal that everyone knows. Everyone is happy singing those twenty songs. But I remember, every once in a while some ambitious song service leader trying to get everyone to sing another, unfamiliar song. That never really went over well.

I think that there's something to the idea of "roots" music. I guess I'm not a traditional Christian, but I still like the traditional gospel songs, the Christmas carols, and even modern praise music. It's not really about the lyrical content, but more about the kind of harmony that ties into something really deep in me. The traditional Christian hymns, the black gospel sound with the awsome Hammond B-3 organ and just the right amount of tremelo, even the stuff on Lawrence Welk: waterd down show tunes and etc., are part of the roots music for me. But what's weird is that I also have an unexplainable affinity with african stuff and I absolutely love Rhajastani style singing. But I have no interest in, or affinity with anything celtic.

Hmmm...

Chris

[China Cat Sunflower]

Right, whatever Chris.

Well, here's what I've been thinking about: What is the nature of religion, and what, leaving everything anachronistic behind, do I want out of it? What's it good for, and what do I want it to do?

First, the diety aspect seems to be entirely anachronistic. This is the modern world. I don't want to play act that I'm somewhere else. Don't really need a god or goddess. Why do I need that?

I'm an adult. Kids play dress-up. I'm not a kid. I don't need to dress all up in some kind of costume and act something out, especially something from a past culture that isn't my culture. That puts the skewer in neo paganism. I mean, I'm enamoured of the old west too, but I'm not gonna dress up like a cowboy and eat a ritual pot of beans.

So what's left, it seems to me, is the social aspect that I've been flogging about trying to erxplain, and tied in with that a need to feel a sense of harmony and creative purpose in the natural world and "how things work."

Now, is that enough to make a religion of? Maybe not. Probably not. No. But that's essentially what we have here in the States except that the component of national identity substitutes for all the anachronistic stuff that's missing. So what if I disregard the nationalism? Is there enough left, or enough to substitute and make something meaningful of? That's what I'm asking myself.

Chris

[InLove]

Hi Chris
(Wow. I have just seen this posted--sorry it is so long. Take your time to read it--I don't want your eyes to bleed!)

I think that the nature of religion is often what you suggest--an avenue for like-minded people to interact regularly in a social situation. It is also an "organizing mechanism", a means in which people can come together and practice rituals that are sacred to them. Then there is the aspect of coming together in group prayer, lifting the real problems and concerns of this world "up" to something beyond our measly selves, since we see that, on our own, we aren't doing such a great job of solving them. For many, it is a way to gain strength and encouragement in times of personal crisis, and it does provide an "instant community" and ready-made support system when we face things like illness or the passing of a loved one. (When I was well enough, one thing I did a lot of was work preparing the food for funeral meals--not much public recognition for a job like that, but I did it for at least two reasons: (1) It had been done for me and it had meant a lot, and I wanted to do the same for others, and (2) people tend to see musicians and singers as "church celebrities" and I wanted to balance that out for myself, because I do not like that part of the music ministry). And then there is, of course, in some religions and denominations, the opportunity to evangelize, which is what puts off many people who might otherwise like to participate. But I think the evangelicals are often misunderstood--there are people there who honestly have so much love in their hearts that they just want to share it with others because what they have means so much to them.

That said, I think it would be great to see people coming together in our neighborhoods to reach out to each other and provide some of these things outside organized religion. And I see it happen, occasionally. Just not often enough, and many times there are numerous, hidden political reasons behind it (just as there are in some churches, I might add). What I do think is important to many is a common goal of some kind, and I think that getting together with one's family and friends provides that in itself. And I think that it is definitely something you should continue to do and be happy about, because there is just not enough of that in the world. Whether or not this can serve as your "religion" is something only you can decide.

I realize this is turning into a long post, but I really didn't know what I was going to write before I started out here. All I knew is that I like what little I know about you, and I want to address your questions sincerely. (I wish you lived nearby--we could "get together" and barbecue and listen to J.D. and Marley and Zappa. And you could advise me on home improvement issues. Ironically, our conversation might turn to "religion", ya think? )

So, since I like you so much, will you bear with me for a moment while I speak my "native Christian language"? Please don't take this as an attempt to proseletyze, okay? That is not what CR is for. But in order for me to properly address your questions, I have to be able to speak freely about my personal experience. So here goes: For me, the things that Christ shows me are the wonders of the universe. Christianity, with all its anachronisms, problems, and even ambiguities, has still served to teach me about this Christ. And I will never deny Him, for He is my Shepherd. But where I diverge from many of my Christian brothers and sisters is here: I will not place limits on Christ. I do not know exactly how He may show Himself to others. I wait with great anticipation to find out. And I want to learn everything I can about how that might be, but I don't know for sure when or how God reveals himself to my non-Christian brothers and sisters. Now, this right here is enough to earn me the heretic's curse in the eyes of many. But this is what I have been shown by the very same Christ of Christian belief. And it is where I stand. Would I still believe this if I had never partaken of religion? I have to say that I don't know how, but I strongly believe that God would reveal "Himself" to me in one way or another. I think either we all search for something beyond ourselves, or this Entity finds us--and I really believe that it is a mutual endeavor, whether we realize it or not. And really, I do trust that we see HIm in the face of others, if we want to.

Whew! I have talked a bunch here, haven't I? Well, I could chalk it up to blog therapy, or I could simply thank you for providing an opportunity for me to finally say some things I have wanted to say for some time now. So, thanks--and I hope you understand that this was not meant to be a sermon of any kind. Just being honest.

And as far as the music goes? As I have recently expressed to a couple of other folks here, music is a free agent. It is there for us and it can transcend whatever assignments it is given by man. (By the way, ya don't like the Celtic stuff? Some of it is way cool! And there is something to be said for dressing up like a cowboy every now and then. But I would suggest that you don't indulge in the ritual pot of beans when you are on a remote job--too hard to get out of all those tight clothes and chaps and stuff when you need to.)

As Always,
InPeace,
InLove,
Debora

[flowperson]

InLove:

Thank you for your meaningful post. It was just long enough.

For quite some time now I have not needed a group to help me appreciate the meaning of what I believe. Although in the past church life meant a great deal to me, especially the music part.

I am constantly seeking far and wide for the meaning that you so artfully described...and every so often it has found me. And...I have been profoundly changed each time that it has. Each experience shook me to my core. And many times I found myself repeating the old saw, "be careful what you look for...you might find it."

Chris...As I said earlier, you are indeed a lucky man to be content with life as it is for you. But stuff happens...even on a job somewhere as you pointed out elsewhere here...and then things change. Then it's time to look for answers...and to be able to honestly accept them when they're found, or as I said, they find you.

I keep going back to the fact that Neanderthals buried their loved ones with bouquets of flowers in what is now Iran 50,000 years ago. Every time I think about how they celebrated and mourned the life of a revered and loved one in this way, which probably also included lost rituals to celebrate both life and death...then I understand what religion really is and why it is important to us in whatever forms it is celebrated...at home or with others away from home.

flow...

[neosnoia]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I find the ritual of what I do on the weekend starting to gell into an almost religious experience. There's the ritual of cleaning the house on Saturday, followed by ritual sex with the wife on Saturday night. I take my ritual shave Sat. morning in preperation. Sunday is my ritual game of golf followed by playing with the kids so momma can rest, and then an awesome meal in the evening, usually with good friends, and then good conversation over drinks until it's night, night time.

I think you'd really like the book "The Soul's Religion" by Thomas Moore. Your words above are one of the best (inadvertent) summations of Moore's philosophy as I've ever read. You might also like his "The Re-enchantment of Everyday Life."

[neosnoia]

Originally Posted by InLove

Would that be the "Old Farmer's Almanac" or the "TV Version"? Because I have heard that the latter is not true to the original Almanaic text.

[China Cat Sunflower]

So, since I like you so much, will you bear with me for a moment while I speak my "native Christian language"? Please don't take this as an attempt to proseletyze, okay? That is not what CR is for. But in order for me to properly address your questions, I have to be able to speak freely about my personal experience. So here goes: For me, the things that Christ shows me are the wonders of the universe. Christianity, with all its anachronisms, problems, and even ambiguities, has still served to teach me about this Christ. And I will never deny Him, for He is my Shepherd. But where I diverge from many of my Christian brothers and sisters is here: I will not place limits on Christ. I do not know exactly how He may show Himself to others. I wait with great anticipation to find out. And I want to learn everything I can about how that might be, but I don't know for sure when or how God reveals himself to my non-Christian brothers and sisters. Now, this right here is enough to earn me the heretic's curse in the eyes of many. But this is what I have been shown by the very same Christ of Christian belief. And it is where I stand. Would I still believe this if I had never partaken of religion? I have to say that I don't know how, but I strongly believe that God would reveal "Himself" to me in one way or another. I think either we all search for something beyond ourselves, or this Entity finds us--and I really believe that it is a mutual endeavor, whether we realize it or not. And really, I do trust that we see HIm in the face of others, if we want to.

I like this, Debora! I'm always interested in other people's spiritual experience. I'm always wondering what it's like for them; what it does for them. What I'm trying to do these days is say what I actually think. I tried a lot of different flavors of spirituality, organized and disorganized, but I always felt as though I was just repeating things I'd read and heard. I've put all of that aside so that I can see what will grow naturally out of my own experience.

Remember that story about Elijah (or was it Elisha) looking for God in the whirlwind, but finding It instead in the still, small voice? I spent a huge amount of time and effort looking everywhere outside of myself for something spectacular. Something that would come and take me out of myself and make me into...whatever. But what I was missing was all the little ordinary things, the small and mundane expressions, the nuts and bolts of nature and my own life. I couldn't stop and smell the roses because I was too busy chasing something ever-elusive and grand.

Anyway, thanks for the nice post, I really enjoyed it!

Chris

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by neosnoia

I think you'd really like the book "The Soul's Religion" by Thomas Moore. Your words above are one of the best (inadvertent) summations of Moore's philosophy as I've ever read. You might also like his "The Re-enchantment of Everyday Life."

Thanks Neo! I'm pulling together an Amazon order, I'll check those books out.

Chris

[China Cat Sunflower]

A few years ago my wife and I did a sweat lodge ceremony with some friends in New Mexico. This wasn't a touristy thing, it was in some people's back yard. They were an extended family with part white hippy kinda people and part Hopi Indian people. Nice folks. Anyway, while we were making our prayer ties with tobacco tied up in little squares of colored cloth the indian grandma told us the story of how the sweat lodge was invented.

It seems that the men were jealous of the women because they had their "moon-time" ceremonies. Of course the men didn't menstrate so there was no point in them participating. So the women said "why don't you men go and have your own ceremonies." So they came up with the sweatlodge.

Anyway, I was thinking about that and the Farmers Almanac thing. How the Farmers Almanac is a sort of guide for people who still want to plant and do other seasonal things in tune with the moon cycles and other natural occurences. The sweat lodge has evolved beyond an exclusively male activity, and men have embraced the moon cycle in their own way too. It seems that the perrenial wisdom of the natural cycles and the socially reinforcing aspects of ceremonialism can evolve into something more than anachronistic forms, but there doesn't seem to be much interest in a practical kind of ritualism that evolves to suit the modern experience. In fact, it seems like people cultivate a sort of anachronistic seperation, or space, between the known, mundane world of daily life, and a kind of spiritual fantasy fiction realm in order to create a sort of magical mystery zone out of the dark space in between.

I don't know if that makes any sense.

Chris

[flowperson]

Chris:

That makes sense to me. There's nothing more safe than some imagined place where your spirit can go and not be threatened by the mundane and profane realities of this world. People have been doing this for as long as there have been people, IMHO. But it takes dedication, concentration, and discipline. If you haven't read any of Carlos Castanedas' books from the 70's you should.

flow....

[neosnoia]

"The kind of spirituality that fosters enchantment is not the variety that feeds on creeds alone. It is the kind that discovers holiness around every corner.

Some forms of spirituality aim infinitely high and we see them reflected in towering buildings and church steeples. But there is a spirituality that is more like a lowly emanation from the most humble and earthbound things that of a particular house, a garden, a neighborhood, a grove of trees, a pristine beach, a holy well, a field of wheat.

Here spirituality is indistinguishable from enchantment, for in an enchanted world the things of nature and even of culture reek of holiness. Enchantment is nothing more than spirituality deeply rooted in the Earth.

It is particularly exciting to encounter such exalted expressions of spirituality connected to plants, rocks and earth, for there we find the marriage of heaven and earth, and the reconciliation of the infinite with the finite.

Human life stands between these two realms, for human life is defined essentially by the soul, which is the mediating element that enjoys both the aspirations of the most transcendent spirituality and the lowliest devotion to nature and human endeavor."

[China Cat Sunflower]

Flow,

I read a couple of the Castenada books many years ago. A lot of people were really bummed when they found out that they were fictional.

Chris

[China Cat Sunflower]

I really like that quote Neo!

Chris

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by neosnoia

"The kind of spirituality that fosters enchantment is not the variety that feeds on creeds alone. It is the kind that discovers holiness around every corner.

Some forms of spirituality aim infinitely high and we see them reflected in towering buildings and church steeples. But there is a spirituality that is more like a lowly emanation from the most humble and earthbound things that of a particular house, a garden, a neighborhood, a grove of trees, a pristine beach, a holy well, a field of wheat.

Here spirituality is indistinguishable from enchantment, for in an enchanted world the things of nature and even of culture reek of holiness. Enchantment is nothing more than spirituality deeply rooted in the Earth.

It is particularly exciting to encounter such exalted expressions of spirituality connected to plants, rocks and earth, for there we find the marriage of heaven and earth, and the reconciliation of the infinite with the finite.

Human life stands between these two realms, for human life is defined essentially by the soul, which is the mediating element that enjoys both the aspirations of the most transcendent spirituality and the lowliest devotion to nature and human endeavor."

Hi, neosnoia. Your quote bring to mind one of my favorite quotes:

This is one of the miracles of love: It gives a power of seeing through its own enchantments and yet not being disenchanted.
C. S. Lewis