Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and Dorje Shugden

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by samabhudi

Holding so tight, just let go.

Holding tight? Who?

Arrogance ("And everyone else thinks otherwise") and antagonsim ("Geshe has gone against this hierarchy. Follow him if you will, but by virtue, or rather vice, of his own example, he can't offer devotion to the guru as a method of realisation, which unfortunately is at the head of the tradition he purports..." etc) are sooooo unbuddhist.

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

Samabhudi,

How can it be harmful to the Buddha Dharma to teach it?

Although I personally do not follow Geshe Kelsang or the NKT, I have attended a few classes and pujas. In fact it was the NKT who taught me about Buddhism in the first place.

Buddhism is very difficult to find in the west. You can read books all you want but there is no real substitute for being able to actually speak to a Buddhist monk. This is what the NKT offered me, and offer so many more people in Western Europe and America.

It's an entire lineage passed down by one man, who isn't supported by the lineage he schismed from.

What makes you think he has schismed from his lineage? He disagrees with the DL, yes, but the DL is not and has never been a part of the Kadampa tradition, he is part of the Gelug school (and not actually it's head).


I wonder, Samabhudi, do you think that Buddhism should be confined to the far east forever? If a Tibetan Geshe comes to the west to teach, why is that bad?

Finally, I must say that the tone of your messages to bdchit seems both dismissive and arrogant, which is not really in the spirit of this site.

Peace
ATF

[samabudhi]

Holding tight? Who?

People who want to do a deprecated practice. They don't have to do it, it's like Protestants marching through Catholic neighbourhoods. Just looking for a fight.
If Geshe taught it secretly, that might be a different story.

Could you really say what Buddhist is? In my miserable experience, it's never as simple as I thought, particularly in Tantra.

How can it be harmful to the Buddha Dharma to teach it?

Although I personally do not follow Geshe Kelsang or the NKT, I have attended a few classes and pujas. In fact it was the NKT who taught me about Buddhism in the first place.

Buddhism is very difficult to find in the west. You can read books all you want but there is no real substitute for being able to actually speak to a Buddhist monk. This is what the NKT offered me, and offer so many more people in Western Europe and America.

Tibetan Buddhism is an extremely complicated soteriology, by far the most involved I have encountered. It's just not as simple as good & bad. As I said earlier I'm sure he's done a lot of good, but that good karma doesn't wipe out this bad karma.
If Geshe thinks it's simply about providing teachings, then I suggest he doesn't fully comprehend his own tradition. (how's that for arrogance ) But seriously, there are bigger forces at work here. We would do well to listen to the elders.

What makes you think he has schismed from his lineage? He disagrees with the DL, yes, but the DL is not and has never been a part of the Kadampa tradition, he is part of the Gelug school (and not actually it's head).

It's the New Kadampa tradition, a bit different.

I wonder, Samabhudi, do you think that Buddhism should be confined to the far east forever? If a Tibetan Geshe comes to the west to teach, why is that bad?

Finally, I must say that the tone of your messages to bdchit seems both dismissive and arrogant, which is not really in the spirit of this site.

It's not bad. My lineage is Karma Kagyu, which started in the West with two Rinpoches, Chogyam Trungpa and Dr Akong Tulku. But they have the support of the Karmapa and they're deeply rooted in their tradition, despite their different approaches to teaching. Akong Tulku is very traditional and Trungpa was quite the renegade, yet they have the support of their lineages, in contrast to Gyatso.

An example:
I was talking to my boss about vegetarianism. He exclaims he's a militant vegetarian, and we discuss the pros and cons. I say even eating plants, you are supporting the killing of thousands of insects etc who are slaughtered under tractors, with insecticide etc. He says that, yes, it is impossible to be fully free from this, but at least there is LESS blood on his hands.

Now I don't agree with this. That is to say, I don't have anything wrong with being vegetarian, but as far as the end result is concerned, vegetarianism is not a solution to the problem of sentient beings suffering. I want to vanquish the ROOT of the problem. Nothing less will do. I've been torturing, raping, killing, dismembering, and devouring every other sentient being, and them me and each other, since beginningless time - what good does it do trying to 'slow down' the suffering, when the tally is at infinity anyway. The only option is the complete cessation of suffering.

My point is that Geshe may be helping in certain ways, and to you or I it would seem to be the right thing, but we don't see the bigger picture. HH and many high up Lamas have agreed that this is not a beneficial practice for this time and place - perhaps it was some time ago in Tibet?

(Look, nothing annoys me more than someone telling me I can't do Vajrayogini practice cause I hadn't had an empowerment. But I have to accept it. There's no way round it, it's how Vajrayana works. If you want, you can read all about Samabudhi versus E-Sangha on the subject of the necessity of a guru in the Tibetan Traditions, but ultimately, to follow Tibetan Buddhism, the guru is absolutely essential. And coming from South Africa where gurus just don't exist, I'm painfully aware of this. So I know how ya feel!)

[bdchit]

I see that indeed it was unwise for me to enter this fray. I spent many years trying to be right, proving that my point of view is superior. Now I prefer to adopt the mantra of my beloved (NKT) ordained teacher, Kelsang Gomlam, a former Hospice nurse and an American: "My mind is mistaken and my opinions are unreliable."

And, on the chance that you, Sambudhi, may be a Buddha (since the only one I know for sure isn't, is writing this), thank you for the effort you have put into educating me. I am certain that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso has not abandoned his lineage. The DL is not senior to him. The Wisdom and Method lineage--from Buddha Shakyamuni, through Atisha (the first Kadampa) to Je Tsonghapa (the first of the "new" Kadampas), Je Phabongka, Trijang Rinpoche, and now Kelsang Gyatso, seems to be intact.

I have wondered about the DL abandoning the dharmapala of his own Spiritual Guide, Trijang Rinpoche. But that is his business, not mine, and I have compassion for him, never criticism. He is doing his best, inside his Karmic Reality.

The official Tibetan-govt-in-exile site says that Je Phabongka newly enhanced the importance of Dorje Shugden, during the 20th century, and emphasized Vajrayogini, about whom Je Tsonghkhapa did not write much...and that the Yellow Book caused the DL to rightly doubt Shugden. How much of that is true and how much is self-serving government drivel, I do not know. I am not partisan or sectarianism. I am an anarchist, when I bother to think about politics, which isn't often.

I know that what Geshela teaches works. He may be annoying the conservative, traditionalist authorities, but so did Buddha Shakyamuni. So do I. I admire both Geshela and Shakyamuni; I have learned a great deal about how to treat people kindly from them both, and received the precious teachings on Emptiness from them both. I cannot ask for anything more.

I am withdrawing from the fray, now. Please forgive me if I stumbled into the wrong arena. In future, any of you are welcome to contact me at bdchita@yahoo.com.

Your friend,
E

May world leaders gain wisdom, may countries all be allies, may the "nuclear bomb of love" explode in our midst, may Vajrayogini send an enlightened woman to press her warm lips and body to mine without either of us succumbing to self-cherishing, and may samsara then end in the blink of an eye.

[samabudhi]

Tempered thin or grown in weight, it's hard to see a different fate. Watch yourself, not otherself, and surely you will grin. For as you leave this testing ground you only miss the point, that self is other not which depends the fate, of which depends no other.

[bdchit]

I came back to read Pathless's post, and saw your rap lyric, Sam. Cool!
Bdchita

[friendoftheworld]

About two years ago, I received a teaching from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso in which he said: 'In the future people will become very critical of me and my books. When this happens, don't get angry with them and don't argue. Tell them they are welcome to write better books if they are able.'

Some people are now being very critical of Geshe Kelsang even though he is working tirelessly to benefit every living being. Please don't be critical of him. If you are from another tradition, practice your own tradition and respect other traditions.

[samabudhi]

The highest dharma is based on the highest view, which takes precedence over any level of intention.

'In the future people will become very critical of me and my books.

"O Atula! Indeed, this is an ancient practice, not one only of today: they blame those who remain silent, they blame those who speak much, they blame those who speak in moderation. There is none in the world who is not blamed.

There never was, there never will be, nor is there now, a person who is wholly blamed or wholly praised."

- Kodhavagga sutta

When this happens, don't get angry with them and don't argue. Tell them they are welcome to write better books if they are able.'

If they are able?
Haughtiness is no substitute for rage.

[rdwillia]

Originally Posted by CR Code of Conduct

Although there is room for critical opinions, general tolerance and mutual respect of some degree is required, and especially the acceptance that other people can hold differing views.

Perhaps those NKT practicioners who are obviously encountering some difficulties here should check out www.AwakenYourself.org. It is a new unofficial NKT site and forum by members for members. Perhaps we can come here for qustions about other traditions if we keep it secret that we're NKT so that we don't get bullied? Or flaunt it so that we can work on our patience and understanding of difficult beings.

All I will say is that taking away someone's faith creates one messy load of negative karma. That being said, I leave you in the words of the great Geshe Langri Tangpa:

"Even if someone I have helped
and of whom I had great hopes
nevertheless harms me for no reason,
may I see him as my holy spiritual guide."

With love,

~rdwillia

[samabudhi]

All I will say is that taking away someone's faith creates one messy load of negative karma.

Unless you practise Dharma according to the Dharma,
Dharma itself will become the cause of lower rebirth.
- Gampopa

The nature of the enlightened mind is beyond our understanding. But with learning, contemplation, debate and meditation, we're bound to achieve it.

[dharma-Darlek]

For your info. Geshe Kelsang is no renegade. He has remained true to his root Guru , Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang. He is passing on the pure Kadampa lineage without adding anything. Just in a form suitable for westerners.

It is the Dalai Lama that is the breakaway.. he has shown disdain for his own lineage and has shown great disrespect to Trijang Rinpoche (who was his Junior Tutor and Root Guru. Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang was a firm practioner of Dorje Shugden and gave the Empowerment far and wide. HHDL has caused 10s of 1000s to break their heart commitments and lifetime vows. Geshe Kelsang has followed his Guru with total surrender and no matter how inconvenient or bad for his reputation he has continued to serve his Guru and fulfill his wishes with total Humility and integrity.

HHDL is not the incumbent Authority he is the King of tibet (in Exile) Geshe Kelsangs incumbent Authority is his Root Guru as it should be to HHDL.

p.s. It was the D. Shugden Oracle that facilitated HHDLs escape from Tibet.
p.p.s It was D. Shugden that warned the 13th Dalai Lama to forge links with more powerful countries but he (the 13th DL) was too proud and thought Tibet invincible due to all its protector dieties....
p.p.p.s. D.Shugden is not a 'Vengeful Diety' He is the Wrathful aspect of Manjushri and as a Buddha wouldnt want to hurt a fly.
N.B. I Love Dorje Shugden and I am not an NKT practitioner (I left some years ago and will always treasure what NKT and Geshe-la gave me.) DOrje Shugden is my dad. I wish HHDL would stop commiting so much hurtful speech. He has hurt so many people ..Strange for an emanation of Chenrezig!