Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and Dorje Shugden

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

Originally Posted by rdwillia

*I like AT5 better. It's much more Star-wars-ish*

You think?

"Greetings, I am AT5, human-cyborg relations."

Yeah, I guess that could work.
(I am such a geek)

Originally Posted by rdwillia

I doubt you're such an easily swayed person but I sincerely hope that I had nothing to do with your decision.

Don't worry Ricky, you actually reaffirmed my faith a little if anything. It is good to know someone who found the Buddhadharma through the same door as me.

Peace
AT5

[_Z_]

rdwilla

The Buddha; the original anarchist and anti-hero eh!



I agree about native religions, but Christianities week point imho is that it does not push people to be spiritually advanced and meditate, it is more of a moral religion – and its morality is getting tired in its old age – that is to say that ‘good and evil’ are extremes yet the world is in the middle and all things have a little of everything in them i.e. we are all a little of both. Thus I would say the morality side of it is infantile and based on a partly ignorant perception of the world.



Yes I agree it is great to have temples, I wish there was a Buddhist temple near me – probably is, I don’t know if I fit into it though – I am a bit of a hermit. I bet the Christians wish they had nice warm comfortable temples, with beautiful gardens.

I think hypocrisy emanates from a dualistic worldview!!! I am sure Christianity could find a way to see god as shapeless without boundaries, and thus obtain a non-dualistic approach – maybe in a few millennia eh! But I feel Christianity shall return to its humble beginnings as a cult. Perhaps all religions shall fade onto a more open and merged philosophical way with universal temples – wish it was so now! It would be like here at this forum, with lots of different people debating issues except without the labels.



Yes back on topic…



wrathful deity? I cannot remember much about him as I never use deities, I read gesha’s book ‘the clear light of bliss’ without really taking that aspect in – curiously. Funny how things get tangled up as soon as deities or gods [and interpreted visions of god] are involved!



Z - richard

[rdwillia]

Hello,

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

"Greetings, I am AT5, human-cyborg relations."

Yeah, I guess that could work.
(I am such a geek)

This definitely works! Besides, here in the states ATF has something to do with Alcohol, Firearms and Tobacco. You might give people the wrong impression.

Originally Posted by _Z_

I agree about native religions, but Christianities week point imho is that it does not push people to be spiritually advanced and meditate, it is more of a moral religion – and its morality is getting tired in its old age – that is to say that ‘good and evil’ are extremes yet the world is in the middle and all things have a little of everything in them i.e. we are all a little of both. Thus I would say the morality side of it is infantile and based on a partly ignorant perception of the world.

So sad but true.

Originally Posted by _Z_

Yes I agree it is great to have temples, I wish there was a Buddhist temple near me – probably is, I don’t know if I fit into it though – I am a bit of a hermit. I bet the Christians wish they had nice warm comfortable temples, with beautiful gardens.

To clarify; there's no temple where I'm at. My teacher, a nun, makes a 2 hour drive every 2 weeks. But we're working on getting one. I'm sure you'd fit in well. I too am a hermit and was welcomed with open arms. Just make sure to take your shoes off. I learned that one the hard way!

Originally Posted by _Z_

Perhaps all religions shall fade onto a more open and merged philosophical way with universal temples – wish it was so now! It would be like here at this forum, with lots of different people debating issues except without the labels.

Careful Z, you might be inadvertantly generating bodhichitta. You're starting to sound more like a Mahayanist.

Originally Posted by _Z_

Yes back on topic…



wrathful deity? I cannot remember much about him as I never use deities, I read gesha’s book ‘the clear light of bliss’ without really taking that aspect in – curiously. Funny how things get tangled up as soon as deities or gods [and interpreted visions of god] are involved!

Yes, indeed, back on topic. Wrathful deity, mm hmm... Although, strictly from the books (against historical references saying otherwise), the NKT almost doesn't even see Shugden as a wrathful deity. It seems that according to the NKT he is a 'destroyer of the hosts of maras'. Maras being delusions. Not one to call on to make your enemies choke on their dinner.

And that's the thing with a lot of the NKT teachings. You wouldn't know about any of this from just reading the books. It's not until you start doing research (as AT5 and I have apparently done) that you find out any of the topics we're discussing on here. I find that Dorje Shugden isn't even mentioned in the texts much and when he is, not much attention is payed to his wrathfull aspects. There are pujas (chanted or sung prayers) that include him. Geshe-la's books are pretty straight forward. Your observation about things getting tangled up, is interesting though.

I'm torn between the Mahayana and Hinayana vehicles. With Hinayana you have less deification, but the end "goal" is for everything to end. You're not so concerned with others because you know you can't really do anything to help them. And once you're enlightened, you're done.

Mahayana has more deification but has the goal of Bodhichitta, the desire to become enlightened so that we can help others. The proverbial end of the road is actually to become a Buddha or Bodhisattva yourself so that you can help others out of samsara, which is highly desireable for me. Hmm... Maybe Vajradhara has some advice there.

Also, understand that those are highly generalized takes on the two. It's not cut and dry. Take care!

~Ricky

[_Z_]

Rdwilla, hello.

To clarify; there's no temple where I'm at. My teacher, a nun, makes a 2-hour drive every 2 weeks. But we're working on getting one. I'm sure you'd fit in well. I too am a hermit and was welcomed with open arms. Just make sure to take your shoes off. I learned that one the hard way!

Ha yes, there would be my main problem, I went to a Krishna temple once after walking around for miles [I used to walk a lot], I have a little foot problem and when I took my boots of – oh dear! [not always a good idea eh!]. good luck with your church/temple.

you might be inadvertantly generating bodhichitta. You're starting to sound more like a Mahayanist.

Ha yes probably!



I thought this wrathful deity was fierce towards delusion and illusion! [I could not remember]. Its funny how much ‘sank in’, as I am very much like this with both myself and others – at times I probably seam quite confrontational, yet this is just my way of pushing myself and others towards advancement. The way I see it is that, one may set a philosophical challenge, then others may prove it or parts of it wrong, yet in the end we all win – as we have progressed! I must have deleted a thousand files quite ruthlessly in this vein.



I definitely think I am too of the Mahayana school, although I don’t wish to be reborn here to help others, I believe one can help from the other side – at least as concerns contact with more advanced meditators, which would then filter down. Of course then we would be a deity ourselves! But I do think we can set ‘things’ [magical essences of truth and belief] in Ether, both in life and after, thus removing the deification. Ok so we could say god is he who writes ‘book with no name’ [so to say], thus there is not even a necessity for our involvement, that is if god intervenes – which I doubt. So perhaps there is a role in mediation between the highest [‘god’ or ‘primary mind of universal spirit’ etc], of wisdoms and minds that may not grasp such things.



be well

Z

[wil]

@5 et al.

This whole thread is enlightening, educational and distressing.

I am overjoyed in seeing people learn from each other.

My heart goes out to those who feel disallusioned in their practice.

A close friend of mine says, "Don't dis the path that got you here"

The universe is amazingly accomadating....it will get us where we need to be.

Such strong similarities w/other religions...Jesus was popular becuase he said we didn't need an intermediary to read the books and understand God. Many Christian churches today have conflicts because of the actions of the 'intermediaries' , heck Buddha had to go sit under the tree for similar reasons. Do all these concepts have a shelf life?

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Wil,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by wil

. Many Christian churches today have conflicts because of the actions of the 'intermediaries' , heck Buddha had to go sit under the tree for similar reasons. Do all these concepts have a shelf life?

whilst this seems to be correct, it actually is not.

Buddha Shakyamuni sat under the Bodhi Tree for a few very specific reasons. namely, that all the previous Buddhas have sat under specific trees, as will Maitreya when that arising takes place.

A local brahmin's daughter, Sujata, approached (after the asectics had left)and offered him a golden bowl filled with rice prepared in the essence of the milk of one thousand cows. Renewed in body and mind, his complexion brilliant as the lustre of burnished gold, the bodhisattva bathed and then walked to a nearby cave to continue his meditation. However, the earth shook and the voices of previous buddhas resounded in the air, telling him that this was not the place of his enlightenment and advising him to proceed to the nearby bodhi tree.

all Buddhas of the Three Times have sat on the Vajrasana, the Diamond Throne, when they Awaken in this world system. the precise species of tree differs for each of the Buddhas that Awaken in this world system. Buddha Shakyamuni sat under the pipal tree, a Ficus Religiosa.

this link could be interesting reading:

http://www.buddhismtoday.com/english...1-bodhgaya.htm

metta,

~v

[rdwillia]

Originally Posted by _Z_

Ha yes, there would be my main problem, I went to a Krishna temple once after walking around for miles [I used to walk a lot], I have a little foot problem and when I took my boots of – oh dear! [not always a good idea eh!]. good luck with your church/temple.

Ew...

I thought this wrathful deity was fierce towards delusion and illusion! [I could not remember].

Yes, but don't get him confused with Vajrapani who is also known for this. 'Tis a little different with Shugden.

Its funny how much ‘sank in’, as I am very much like this with both myself and others – at times I probably seam quite confrontational, yet this is just my way of pushing myself and others towards advancement. The way I see it is that, one may set a philosophical challenge, then others may prove it or parts of it wrong, yet in the end we all win – as we have progressed! I must have deleted a thousand files quite ruthlessly in this vein.

Interesting psychological insight. This is probably very effective.

I definitely think I am too of the Mahayana school, although I don’t wish to be reborn here to help others, I believe one can help from the other side – at least as concerns contact with more advanced meditators, which would then filter down. Of course then we would be a deity ourselves! But I do think we can set ‘things’ [magical essences of truth and belief] in Ether, both in life and after, thus removing the deification. Ok so we could say god is he who writes ‘book with no name’ [so to say], thus there is not even a necessity for our involvement, that is if god intervenes – which I doubt. So perhaps there is a role in mediation between the highest [‘god’ or ‘primary mind of universal spirit’ etc], of wisdoms and minds that may not grasp such things.

This actually sounds pretty right on with the Mahayana teachings. At least the first part. The rest of it too though, if I alter some of the terms in my own mind. This is of course my own humble opinion.

Hey Vaj, is there any way we're misinterpreting the Maitreya prophecies? Could it possibly be soon that he is supposed to rise? I'm so tired of 'awaiting the fifth'. (Sorry, AT5, no pun intended). And does "Vajra" literally translated mean "lightning"?

Originally Posted by wil

A close friend of mine says, "Don't dis the path that got you here"

I couldn't agree with you more... Thanks for the post. Dorje Shugden and the associated drama aside, I am very thankful for the NKT for giving me some sort of access to Dharma.

Take care all!

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

Originally Posted by wil

@5

Took me a while to figure out who you were talking to there.

@5, I like it, Im gonna have to steal that.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Rdwillia,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by rdwillia

Hey Vaj, is there any way we're misinterpreting the Maitreya prophecies? Could it possibly be soon that he is supposed to rise? I'm so tired of 'awaiting the fifth'. (Sorry, AT5, no pun intended).

sure, we must always bear this consideration in mind. that being said, there are things which certainly seem allegorical, such as the life span of humans and so forth. there are other things, however, which do not seem to be of the same class, such as the Chakravatin in India and the world being at peace and so forth.

unlike other traditions and the arrival of their Prophet, in this particular case, Buddha Maitreya will appear in a time of peace and prosperity for all beings. i think that we could all agree that this, at the very least, is not the case.

And does "Vajra" literally translated mean "lightning"?

Vajra is an interesting word and is modified by the prefix or suffix. generally speaking, it means "Indestructable Diamond" thus, you'll have a Vajrachopper which is weilded by Manjurshri which cuts through all delusion and so forth and Varjadhara (my namesake) who weilds the Diamond Thunderbolt of Indesctrutable Wisdom and that sort of thing

metta,

~v

[bdchit]

Good day.
I have just now read all the posts on this thread.

I have been a student with the NKT for 4 years. Earlier, I was an Introduction Leader for the Landmark Forum and a staffmember for Werner Erhard (a teacher of a curiously American Zen). I have also practiced Vipassana Meditation for about a year, and read many writings of Oriental Zen masters. I have been moved and enlightened by all of these.

All your posts have wisdom, and also ignorance--as we all do. Let's try to remember that there is no Dorje Shugdan, HH or Geshe or Rinpoche anyone, George W Bush, Siddhartha Gotama, Brahma, Krishna, Jesus, Thich Nhat Hanh, Mother Teresa, your mother, or you and I, outside the mind. If Buddha taught us anything of value (and he is the only one who taught us this) it is that nothing has inherent/true/objective existence outside the mind. In fact, there IS no "outside the mind."

Now, on a gorsser level, we function in this dream as individuals who regard a Dorje Shugdan, a Dalai Lama, and a Kelsanag Gyatso [who is now being spoken of--still not by himself--as living Je Tsonghkhapa (yet another spelling of that title)]

Since it is all mind, we get to say whether Dorje Shugdan et al, are evil, good, right, wrong, corrupt, etc. None of which I find are very empowering notions. Myself, I have trouble with some of GKG's "logical" proofs. (Maybe they are also what we have left of Shakyamuni's proofs, but I have as much trouble with post-Shakyamuni writings as I do with translations of the New Testament.)

But I notice that studying with my Beloved Teachers in the NKT--perhaps y'all find this with your Teachers--is resulting in this ol' ex-New York Jew, or JuBu, learning patience, kindness, and Faith, none of which came with the infant formula at the A&P supermarket in East Flatbush where I was raised.

As a guy with a BA in Philosophy, too, I recall the Utilitarian test for truth: It's true if it works. My teachers say that "correct view" is what produces happiness (and the converse). 'SGood enough for me. Why study or work at anything if it doesn't produce happiness?

So to me, Dorje Shugdan is a beneficial presence in my life because I impute that. I don't believe that I ought to use him to protect sangha of my lineage only. After all, y'all don't exist inherently either. In "my dream," DS is a good guy, GKG is a great beneficial presence, and the deliverer of Je Tsonghkhapa's teachings to these jaded ears, HH is a powerful, devoted theocrat--who has rejected his Spiritual Guide (Trijang Rinpoche)'s dharma protector, and I have compassion for his probable conflict over that, Goerge W Bush is a deeply deluded nationalist, driven--like all of us--by poisonous self-cherishing, and I am probably the only one here who isn't a Buddha, so thank you all for apearing here until I finally get it.

The only mind I can know and manage (and that not always) is mine. I hereby say that I am going to be kinder than I need to, try to help others fulfill harmless samsaric wishes, and become a Buddha as quickly as I can, to free every beloved living being (BLB) from this horrible prison of samsara.

Who's a-comin' with me?

Bdchita in the USA

[bdchit]

I would appreciate correspondence to my personal emnail address: bdchita@yahoo.com.
Thank you.

[samabudhi]

Why study or work at anything if it doesn't produce happiness?

If we were completely convinced of what the causes of happiness are we wouldn't be here going round in circles. Which is what Lamas are for, to help us out of this mess and it's why devotion to the Lama is at the head of the Tibetan Traditions. Geshe has gone against this hierarchy. Follow him if you will, but by virtue, or rather vice, of his own example, he can't offer devotion to the guru as a method of realisation, which unfortunately is at the head of the tradition he purports. The importance of lineages cannot be overemphasised when speaking about Tibetan Buddhism. And yes, you don't have to follow a lineage or have a guru, ultimately, to become enlightened, but that's how it works in Vajrayana, so tough cookies!

So to me, Dorje Shugdan is a beneficial presence in my life because I impute that.

And everyone else thinks otherwise. If all is empty, then why don't you just make it easier for yourself in conventional reality and respect the higher authority. Clinging to self is the only thing stopping you. And if it didn't bother you that much, then you wouldn't be here proselytising.

It's great that you're developing patience, kindness and faith, and no-one said Geshe is not doing great things, but think in terms of the bigger picture, and if you are not ready for the bigger picture, then fine, just leave it alone. Pema Chodron says 'start where you are'. No point getting scrawled up in politics. Just not worth it.

[bdchit]

I appreciate your comments, Sambudhi. It is very kind of you to help me.

[QUOTE ...Lamas are ...to help us out of this mess and it's why devotion to the Lama is at the head of the Tibetan Traditions. Geshe has gone against this hierarchy.

Have you studied with Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, that you say this? Or have you simply been listening to detractors? He's not doing that at all. He is totally devoted to his spiritual guide--Trijang Rinpoche-- and he constantly adjures his students to rely on one's spiritual guide..

Follow him if you will, but by virtue, or rather vice, of his own example, he can't offer devotion to the guru as a method of realisation, which unfortunately is at the head of the tradition he purports. On the contrary, Geshela stresses Guru Yoga constantly. Where are you getting your information about his teachings? The importance of lineages cannot be overemphasised when speaking about Tibetan Buddhism. You are right. The NKT traces an unbroken lineage back to Je Tsonghkhapa, further back to Atisha, and further back to Buddha Shakyamuni.

And everyone else thinks otherwise. If all is empty, then why don't you just make it easier for yourself in conventional reality and respect the higher authority. Thank you for your concern. It is already easy for me, with the wonderful teachers I have had. And I have never been in conflict with anyone over Dorje Shugdan, except when I entered into this fray. Perhaps that was unwise.

By "the higher authority" do you mean the DL? He is not my, or Geshe Kelsang's, higher authority. Geshela was sent to England by Trijang Rinpoche to teach dhrama to Westerners.

Clinging to self is the only thing stopping you. And if it didn't bother you that much, then you wouldn't be here proselytising. I did not think I was proselytising, becuase I don't think NKT is superior to other Buddhist teachings...simply karmically attractive to me. But I have been proselytising all my life, as my mother pointed out to me the other day, so I will look at this more deeply. Thank you. Very kind of you.

It's great that you're developing patience, kindness and faith, and no-one said Geshe is not doing great things, but think in terms of the bigger picture, and if you are not ready for the bigger picture, then fine, just leave it alone. If by the "bigger picture" you mean becoming a Buddha in this lifetime to benefit all ohters, that is very much what I am interested in. And in Geshe Kelsang's teachings I have found an English-speaking, Westerner-friendly path (a path being something that actually leads from here to there systematically, like a walking or driring path) that seems to lead there. We shall see. I hope yours takes you there immediately.

No point getting scrawled up in politics. Just not worth it. Exactly. One thing that initially drew me to Geshe Kelsang is his refusal to color his teachings with Tibetan or any politics. For many years I have been aware that enlightenment--even happiness--is not available on the political level of life.[/quote]

May any small merit I have collected through this public discussion serve to enlighten all beings right now, and end samsara forever.

[bdchit]

Further, NKT is not Tibetan Buddhism. Gesje Kelsang was raised and educated in Tibet, but he is the only Tibetan in NKT. All the teachings and pujas are in English, there are pujas unknown in TIbet, and after Geshela dies, the only thing resembling Tibetan Buddhism will be the veneration of past Tibetan Geshes such as Kelsang Gyatso, Trijang, Tsonghkhapa, Lengri Trangpa, Checkawa, et al., and the red-and-gold robes.

Buddha taught in India, of course, and there is now Buddhism that different cultures have adapted and transmuted to there own languages and cultures. NKT is another phenomenon like that.

[samabudhi]

By "the higher authority" do you mean the DL? He is not my, or Geshe Kelsang's, higher authority. Geshela was sent to England by Trijang Rinpoche to teach dhrama to Westerners.

Indeed!

Further, NKT is not Tibetan Buddhism. Gesje Kelsang was raised and educated in Tibet, but he is the only Tibetan in NKT. All the teachings and pujas are in English, there are pujas unknown in TIbet, and after Geshela dies, the only thing resembling Tibetan Buddhism will be the veneration of past Tibetan Geshes such as Kelsang Gyatso, Trijang, Tsonghkhapa, Lengri Trangpa, Checkawa, et al., and the red-and-gold robes.

Well this is the problem isn't it. It's an entire lineage passed down by one man, who isn't supported by the lineage he schismed from. And when he goes, it'll be a whole lot of westerners propitiating a protector they really know nothing about. Where is Kelsang's support? Why does he find it so important to do this practice when it's clearly harmful to Buddha Dharma?

Holding so tight, just let go.