Genesis 3:3-4

[Quahom1]

[quote=Kelcie]

Hi Quaholm1,

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

I have gained a greater understanding from it.

Kelcie

LOL, sometimes I have my moments...

[truthseeker]

Thank You for this lively discussion.

Welcome to CR, Kelcie. Your thoughts on this matter is much appreciated and a bit enlightening as well.

I don't take every passage in the bible literally, hence the intended deeper understanding of Genesis 3:3-4. I believe the bible to be true, told from the perspective of the Isrealites. Furthermore, I believe in "you are what you eat" - in terms of Jesus I believe that God was with him so in that sense he was God but to say that Jesus was God means to me that God is Jesus - being monotheistic and all... But I've been through this trinity issue before.

Originally Posted by Nogodnomasters

The Jews did not look to the messiah for salvation. The messiah was to lead them against an overthrow of the Greco-Roman empire

Insofar as my understanding of the whole thing, I agree. Jesus is savior of those of us that need to be saved, including those who were enlightened by him during his time on earth. We fall deeply in love with Jesus' love message but don't want to acknowledge, perhaps by pride, that it is that love message that brings us back to feeling human after a long day of feeling like a robot. Jesus' message provokes feeling that ascends the spirit beyond the physical realm - That is what the message did for Paul. The message leaves us so inspired in love that we are willing to fight tooth and nail to keep that inspiration alive - so be it. But Jesus was not Christian. Nor were the 12 Disciples, or Paul, Timothy, or Mary Magdelene. They were Hebrews separated from Isreal living under the rule of the Roman Empire. Things were pretty hectic during that time. So much separation and need to revolutionize. Anyhow, a message of love and unity did well and those who heard wanted to keep the message alive. If Jesus is your messiah, cool. He certainly is mine. But different cultures need different methods of being saved and Jesus isn't Captain Save 'Em for everybody. Old Testament and New Testament - how vain is that?

Originally Posted by Kelcie

The suffering that this spiritual death brings is the suffering that is caused by the mind. The passions of the ego that are not fulfilled, that therefore binds us to the things of this world and to the things of our minds. The bible states clearly how we should rid ourselves of these passions.

Beautifully stated. Easier understood than done though. Say, like when you are in a love relationship with a person and though you are still in touch with God, it's not as intense as it used to be. That would be an obvious distancing of oneself from God. How do you balance something like that?

[Kelcie]

Originally Posted by truthseeker

Welcome to CR, Kelcie. Your thoughts on this matter is much appreciated and a bit enlightening as well.

HI truthseeker,

Thank you for your warm welcome and appreciation.

Easier understood than done though. Say, like when you are in a love relationship with a person and though you are still in touch with God, it's not as intense as it used to be. That would be an obvious distancing of oneself from God. How do you balance something like that?

Agreed, perhaps this is because we become more familiar with the feelings of GOD just as we do in love relationships. In love relationships at the beginning there is intense feelings of excitement and love but as they evolve I dont think it is too much distancing but more that it is less intense because of the familiarity of the other persons being. The awe struckness has gone and you are more than likely deeper in love then you were on the outset. At least I hope this is true of most love relationships.

Kelcie

[truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Kelcie

Agreed, perhaps this is because we become more familiar with the feelings of GOD just as we do in love relationships. In love relationships at the beginning there is intense feelings of excitement and love but as they evolve I dont think it is too much distancing but more that it is less intense because of the familiarity of the other persons being. The awe struckness has gone and you are more than likely deeper in love then you were on the outset. At least I hope this is true of most love relationships.

Beautifully said, Kelcie. I hope this is true in my love relationship with God. To think that I have become one with God and my significant other all at the same time is a healing thought. I think of it very similiar to one looking for God when God is all around us. Like God walking in the Garden in the cool of the day and yet, God is the Garden.

[ghufranakahmad]

Originally Posted by truthseeker

Really, I like the way that the KJV reads better but at this time I have access only to the NIV.

I find this scripture to be interesting. This is the original sin, right?

Do you think that the fruit on the tree is a metaphor or that this is literal? Being a metaphor, does this still apply today?
I mean, could it be that there is information that we should not be trying to tap into ('fruit' of knowledge), and with uncovering some knowledge of certain things we could be setting ourselves up for death?

Dear Member,
I will rather comment on the first three chapters of the Genesis as the verses are interconnected.
This book of the Bible explains as to how the universe was created by God. I understand, as if the whole universe was wrapped up over the right hand of God almighty and when He ordered everything started unfolding and shaping up according to the scheme of things in His All-Wise mind. In the beginning the Word was with Him and when commanded with his Word the creation started. Without his word this process would have not started as every thing but obeys Him. Like the perfect God his words and creation was perfect having no contradictions and defects.

This has been narrated in a metaphor in the Bible for our understanding the phenomenon of creation, in which schemes of things have been explained for our guidance. It explains not only the physical outer phenomenon but its inner also. It explains as to how everything got evolved without hurry, stage by stage, towards the perfection as per blueprint and intelligent observation of the Creator. This has to be kept in mind.

The key verses from which we decipher this mystery are hidden in the text, sometimes between the lines:-

1.26(KJV) “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.”

This point has been repeated twice in the next verse(1.27 ) to emphasize that it is a key verse and also that things have been explained in metaphors for our understanding. God is not a physical being; rather He has created everything physical including man. We recognize Him from his attributes

2.9(KJV) “And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.”

2.16(KJV) “And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat.”

2.17(KJV) “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” and also verse 3.21

· It is further confirmed that it is a metaphor, since there is no physical tree neither found in this world nor mentioned in this or any previous chapter of the Book of Genesis we are contemplating on.

· “In the midst of the garden” this means it is a focal point, a centre point in the scheme of creation. There are three types of creation as per scheme of life, first the angels who obey God and incite man for good things, second-the devils/ Satan- who have been made by God to incite man for doing bad things and incite him to disobey, third-Man who can perform good things and bad things, can obey or disobey God by his own free will. If man does good things he will be rewarded by God more than the Angels, and if he does bad things he will be rewarded accordingly only if he repents and asks forgiveness from God then of course man is forgiven. This is the core of the scheme of creation.

Everything in the Garden was made accessible for Man by God.

· “Tree of the knowledge of good and evil” knowledge has been mentioned as a tree very truly having so many branches like that is today and growing day by day and can be best presented in an organogram, and the quality bestowed by God to man to distinguish good from evil, or right from wrong which is a unique quality gifted to man with which man climbs the ladder of progress.

· In fact acquirement of knowledge had already been started by man as a mercy from God mentioned in earlier verses when Adam started naming animals and other things and it was approved by God. In fact that was done by Revelation, man was taught language by God through revelation and man started learning it quickly. God’s dialogues with man have been mentioned in these chapters which clearly indicate this phenomenon; else man would have neither gained knowledge nor could store the knowledge so essential for his progress and would have remained ignorant and uncivilized. As I can understand from it, man was also revealed a code of ethics ,as to what acts man was ought to perform and what acts was he to abstain from, that was to be observed by him and his fellow human beings for his cultural ,moral and spiritual uplift.

· “Serpent” is Satan or devil which has been described here more clever than any beast of the field which God had made, otherwise, the serpent neither talks to the human beings nor it can be established that serpent is the cleverest animal, so it is definitely Satan who incited Eve or Adam on doing something which on the face of it looked beneficial, may be it was a pagan tribe and they were forbidden to have close contacts with them lest they lose their sublime moral behavior which was taught to them by God. Sometimes Satan pleads within us and a thing which hitherto looked righteous when we act upon turn out to be harmful and invites displeasure of our God.

· 3.4(KJV) “And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die.”

Here it is mentioned that Satan said if you eat from the tree you will not surely die. God had told that if you will eat from the tree you will surely die which did not actually happen. Looks as if Satan knew more than God! This can never be. God meant you will loose your knowledge or cultural advancement if you do what has been forbidden. God is All-Knowing, when he had created man on his image He has given a taste of his attributes to man, then how can he forbid man from gaining knowledge. What is this book Genesis for? Surely, it is to increase man’s knowledge. There is no contradiction in God or in His attributes. When a man has no contradictions in him he becomes a best man.

When God knows good from evil and it is one of His attributes then how could He prohibit man from acquiring this attribute whom He has created on his image. This is simply misunderstood. God’s attributes don’t change.

· Since, the creation of universe started and evolved with the command of God’s word, and without it the same would have not shaped up as mentioned in the Genesis, the physical laws of the universe and the word of God are from the same source that is God, hence the same cannot have any contradictions, if there seem to be one then either the physical laws have been misunderstood or the word of God have been misunderstood. As with contradictory physical laws, the universe would get blown up likewise with contradictory moral & spiritual laws the whole moral and spiritual edifice will be ruined.

· 3.14(KJV) “And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.”

The Satan has been cursed, i.e. Satan has been told that he will always remain afar from the path of God and so also his followers, with the punishment, “upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life”. This means those who follow him their total effort of life being materialistic, they only craving for worldly things having no part in spiritual things, hence they will get no reward in the hereafter, as they have not developed their spiritual tastes having only elongated their worldly desires so shall be the fruits of their efforts, they will not be in the company of God neither in this world nor in the hereafter. Satan and those who follow him will neither become close friends of God in this world nor in the hereafter.

· 3.15(KJV) “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”

Satan has been told that now on man who wants to attain closeness of God, they shall have to treat Satan as their open enemy and would have to oppose Satan tooth and nail. Other curses mentioned in the chapter are likewise symbolic and considered as such since the painful delivery of woman etc continues unchecked to date even for those who consider that their sins have been delivered off. This also shows that it is all symbolic.

· 3.21(KJV) “Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.”

With sins man gets naked (only symbolically) and when man realizes that with mistake he got involved in sins, he repents, feels remorseful, weeps with agony and asks forgiveness from God since righteous man cannot displease God, and man asks from God to provide covering against his sins, begs from God His shelter from Satan and a shield from the same. It is God’s attribute to listen to the prayers of faulting persons who repent and earnestly want to correct their ways, our All-Merciful God accepts such prayers. Likewise happened at that time and God provided Adam and Eve with coats of skins (only symbolic) and clothed them rather rewarded them for beseeching His friendship and mercy again.

· 3.22(KJV) “And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.”

In fact Adam and Eve were already in the Lasting Garden and man or any-other-being in the Universe is at His mercy and dependent on Him forever. Man cannot harm God or make Him helpless what to speak of his attaining eternity with God, the verse is simply misunderstood. Rather God appreciates & encourages of a man to do good deeds and enter the Lasting Garden again. This is also best understood when considered as symbolic.

The narration of Bible is so interesting, it is a good scripture and attracts anyone one who happen to read it, but it should neither be considered a book of physics nor checked accordingly. We have to decipher its internal meaning for our guidance and enjoy it.



This is what I understand from the book; anyone not in line with me should not worry and can go on believing the way one wants. This is also in accordance with the scheme of life as God does not wants compulsion in faith and wants one to believe in Him with his sole heart and soul and wisdom. However, any comments are welcome.

[mee]

some people say that Adam and eve did not die when they eat the fruit ,but they did die , not in a 24 hour day butwithin the thousand year day of Jehovah.

when Jehovah in his Word speaks of a "day" or "days," we should not conclude that he always means days of twenty-four hours. He may be referring to such and he may not

The word day can refer to a longer period of time. At 2 Peter 3:8 we are told: "One day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. and did not Adam die within the thiusand year day,he was 930 when he died so he died within the day

Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned."—Romans 5:12

illness, old age, and death befell them—conditions not found in Paradise, where man was to have lived

Interestingly, modern scientists know that the human body continually renews itself by replacing its cells. And they say that, under the right conditions, it is capable of living forever. A Nobel Prize winner, Dr. Linus Pauling, explained that man’s bodily tissues replace themselves and, theoretically, should continue to do so forever. Biochemist William Beck also observed: "I can see no reason why death, in the nature of things, need be inevitable." Yet, in spite of being so made, men continue to grow old and die. Why? God’s Word the Bible gives us the satisfying answer.

[Abogado del Diablo]

Could "day" also mean 14 lunar months? How about .121685 nanoseconds?

What would be the purpose of writing a scripture using words that have a different meaning to everyone but the author without ever explaining the meaning you intend by the terms?

[mee]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

Could "day" also mean 14 lunar months? How about .121685 nanoseconds?

What would be the purpose of writing a scripture using words that have a different meaning to everyone but the author without ever explaining the meaning you intend by the terms?

maybe he has explained it , do not the scriptures explain themselves such as 2 peter about the day of 1000 years

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by mee

maybe he has explained it , do not the scriptures explain themselves such as 2 peter about the day of 1000 years

That has nothing to do with the days of creation. To apply that way is nonsense, unless you substitute 1000 years for every use of "day" in scripture.

Moreover, the line in 2 Peter is a simile. Notice the word "like" in there. It's not superfluous.

In any case, did Jesus rise on the Sunday immediately after the crucifixtion or sometime more than 2000 years after the crucifixtion?

[MattWolf]

I enjoyed reading this thread. There is a lot of insight on these boards. Here is my view. It's not meant to be argumentative, but merely a sharing of what I see. Please be patient with me.

When I read these verses I'm struck by the simplicity of it. This simple story encapsulates so many different angles of man's predicament on earth. It symbolizes the very struggle of a spiritually aware existence. On the one hand, living in complete obedience to God would put us in a somewhat blissfully ignorant state. Some claim that angels and certain spiritual beings exist in this manner, and that this is why they do not experience salvation the way man does.

On the other hand, becoming acquainted with our nature (which man apparently must) is painful. Enter, the Garden of Eden...

I think the story works beautifully as a confirmation of our spiritual state without throwing in the idea that God is punishing US for what THEY did. As I see it, God doesn't have to punish anybody (past or present) for their actions. I interpret consequences as just that. It's as though God was saying: "If you jump off that cliff, you will fall and die" not "If you jump off that cliff I'm going to make you fall and die." God's laws are active, eternal, and inescapable like the laws of nature. So God then explains what effect the couple's disobedience will have on the future. He doesn't have to cast a curse on anybody -- He's just expressing the way things are. We are not required to interpret these consequences as a punitive act (IMHO).

I agree that God knew what would happen. When God says Gen 3:22 "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil...", He is confirming/acknowledging this part of the plan. It is more ceremonial than accusatory. It's also not surprise: "Oh no, look what happened! I didn't see that coming, did you?" Instead, it is the beginning of "The plan for developing man's spirituality."

If it should have been done differently, God would have done it differently. Therefore, the situation is always joyous, never desperate. The process set in motion has been created for great eternal benefits, as we all know. (I am unsupportive of an original sin doctrine.)

To me, this story encapsulates how & why man, in his struggles to become like God, must continually fail -- discover the consequences -- and then work at picking himself back up. "Wow, shame, fear, and toil really stink!" By discovering the ungodly parts of the self and rejecting their consequences we grow in our conviction to embrace godly qualities. With our growing conviction, we become more like God -- which has to have been the point in the first place.

Some people won't "get it" as we know, will continually jump off the cliff and hit the ground and then look for the next cliff to jump off. But my belief is that they are not being punished for disobedience as much as they are simply suffering the consequences of their actions, and falling from a cliff that they chose to jump off. In the end, the final chasm they jump into winds up being REALLY deep.

[Quahom1]

The Judeac/Christian concept of God is nothing simplistic. It requires a man to think, ponder, then act. That in and of itself is a complex set of issues.

And it isn't a matter of what one does to be "saved". It is a matter of what one does while here. Perhaps that is for another thread...

v/r

Q

[Ratanya]

I read somewhere once, that knowledge was the enemy of faith.

I guess I view the original sin in a different light.

To me, to make a decision based on the absence of knowledge is true free will. When you have knowledge, your decisions are then based on what you know.. how is that free will, with the bias of knowledge affecting your decision.

Maybe I am interpreting the term free will in the wrong manner. I always observe that people (including myself) choose the path that best suits them at the time.. based off a variety of historical, social, emotional and spirtual factors. Pride, greed, guilt etc..

~~~~
If Eve did have to feed Adam a piece of fruit from the tree knowledge, why couldn't she of made it a larger piece.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Ratanya

I read somewhere once, that knowledge was the enemy of faith.

I guess I view the original sin in a different light.

To me, to make a decision based on the absence of knowledge is true free will. When you have knowledge, your decisions are then based on what you know.. how is that free will, with the bias of knowledge affecting your decision.

Maybe I am interpreting the term free will in the wrong manner. I always observe that people (including myself) choose the path that best suits them at the time.. based off a variety of historical, social, emotional and spirtual factors. Pride, greed, guilt etc..

~~~~
If Eve did have to feed Adam a piece of fruit from the tree knowledge, why couldn't she of made it a larger piece.

Indeed, why did Adam choose Eve over God? Was it free will? Or did he know what was going to happen, yet chose it anyway...

v/r

Q

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Indeed, why did Adam choose Eve over God? Was it free will? Or did he know what was going to happen, yet chose it anyway...

v/r

Q

That's funny . . . I always though Eve chose Adam . . .

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

That's funny . . . I always though Eve chose Adam . . .

Could be, for better or for worse...