Genesis 3:3-4

[InLove]

Hi, Peace--

If I bow in submission to Love's will, and then do what I will from there, how can I do harm if I am doing what I do in Love?

InPeace,
InLove

[Nogodnomasters]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

If I didn't know you, I'd almost accept this. But since you are crasher (denounce anything God including Christ), I take what is said with a grain of salt.

However, the NT states that all fall short of the Glory of God. And the OT insists that there will be a "messiah", providing salvation for man.

Why would man need to be saved, unless he is in peril? Why would the OT convey the "sins" of the father unto his children, to the third and fourth generations no less?

Original sin, is the first time that man fell out of balance with God. In otherwords, man disagreed and then acted upon that disagreement. The sin wasn't disagreeing, it was the deliberate act fueled by the disagreement.

In the NT, we are told that the disagreement itself is sin (which I have a serious problem with). None the less, it means that even if no outward sin is committed, an inward one has been, therefore all fall short.

Your comment that there is nothing original in the bible is fact?...or your point of view?

Ancient cultures? They are all ancient. Egypt, Sumeria, and the Hebrews (semites).

The only "sin" I could possibly see sex being, is with a non mate, or with a mate wherein conception of a child was required (for what ever reasons), and seed was deliberately prevented from completing that conception. The "sex" would not be the sin. The thinking for having "sex" a certain way might be the sin. One would be for the continued Glory of God, and the other, for self gratification, hence no Glory to God, hence sin.

Interesting point about the "Adam and Eve" cylinder...perhaps you could expound on this more?

v/r

Q

I am not a crasher. The rules for the thread claim discussion must be within the confines of religious belief. It does not exclude people who believe otherwise, just non-religious posting.

The Jews did not look for a messiah for salvation. The messiah was to lead them against an overthrow of the Greco-Roman empire. The Jews had annual rituals for the forgiveness of sins. One community used a scape goat. The sins were transferred to a goat and the goat was sacrificed. Judaism has never nor still do they look for a messiah for forgiveness of sins. This most likely was a result of syncretism. Christianity incoporated many neoplatonic ideas into their religion via Paul. Other Greek ideas such as the logos (the word) appear in John. Philio of Alexandria attempted to change Judaism by explaining OT writings in light of Greek theology. He also helped finance the Roman army.

The sex idea is mentioned by Rabbis in the midrash. It is also good comparative religion when we look at other ancient texts.

The word "original" is not in any Bible concordance. I just used that fact as a pun.

The Adam and Eve cylinder seal: Here is a link: http://www.greatcommission.com/london/2003017.jpg

There is a man and a woman sitting on either side of a date palm. There is a serpent on each side of the seal.

[Kelcie]

Originally Posted by truthseeker

'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you [shall surely] die.'
You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like [gods], knowing good and evil."
Do you think that the fruit on the tree is a metaphor or that this is literal? Being a metaphor, does this still apply today?

Hi Truthseeker,

The tree of knowledge of good and evil for me is metaphor for the “mind” the mind that houses the ego. The metaphor for the ego in reference to the above passage is the serpent. The mind has the ability to do what bananabrain refers to and that is; the ability to act based on your free will.

The fruits the tree brings forth are the thoughts the ideas of the mind and the actions that usually result from these thoughts and ideas. We can bear good or evil fruits but that decision remains with the bearer of these fruits.

Dwelling in GODs presence was Adam and Eves original state of being. By choosing to listen to her ego (the serpent) and partake of the fruits of the mind. Eve experienced a spiritual death as Bandit has said. A shutting down if you will of her awareness of GOD. Adams choice to partake in Eve’s fruit was also of the mind resulting in him losing his awareness also.

The suffering that this spiritual death brings is the suffering that is caused by the mind. The passions of the ego that are not fulfilled, that therefore binds us to the things of this world and to the things of our minds. The bible states clearly how we should rid ourselves of these passions. If our desires are not fulfilled we can suffer greatly depending on what desire has not been fulfilled but we suffer all the same if we have not learned how to rise above the mind.

Jesus’ journey on this earth was to demonstrate to humankind that you could indeed overcome sin. (Which in this instance is the mind). “He died for our sins” reinforces this level of understanding. His quote “I am capable of great things but you are capable of greater” (or something like that) tells us that we are just as capable of doing what he did if not greater.

We continue to be affected by the “original sin” (my understanding) today largely because man has chosen not to let go of the passions of the mind. What we teach our children is therefore teaching them the original sin (passions of the mind) and the cycle continues.

For sure the mind is part of who we are and was part of Adam and Eve, the usage of it however is different when you dwell in the presence of GOD.


Thats just my level of understanding it at the moment

Kelcie

[Faithfulservant]

Its literal to me. The only time the bible is not literal is when they use words describing it as being like something else. Ive always believed that and noone has ever been able to show me proof otherwise.

Kelcie those that believe Jesus is God.. could never allow the idea that we could be greater than Him. He set Himself as an example to us as to how we should be and proved the impossiblity of it by shedding His blood on the cross.. Its the greatest of sacrifices not to be trivialized by making it an ego thing.

I am curious where you get that quote about us being capable of being greater...Its not something that I think I have read in my bible.

[Kelcie]

Hi Faithfulservant,

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Kelcie those that believe Jesus is God.. could never allow the idea that we could be greater than Him.

I agree if they thought that Jesus was God they would never allow the idea, However Jesus was the son of God, therefore an offspring as we are, in human form subject to the same laws of gravity and the like as we are. He wasnt saying we could be greater than God but greater than him as a human being. Meaning depending on what we received from God (our manner of love)we could do greater things if God so intends us to.

He set Himself as an example to us as to how we should be and proved the impossiblity of it by shedding His blood on the cross.. Its the greatest of sacrifices not to be trivialized by making it an ego thing.

Just need a little clarification. Jesus set himself has an example to us as how we should be and then showed us it was impossible? Maybe I am reading it wrong sorry.

For me he indeed set himself as an example. For me the ego is not trivial. Jesus overcome the physical limitations that man of those times thought was impossible. He demonstrated the impossible was possible. These perceived limitations are what the ego lead us to believe. He rose above it and gave us clues as to how we get rid of it. Hate, jealousy,greed, Lust, desire in all its different shades (being part of the ego as we know it today) needed to be eradicated.

I am curious where you get that quote about us being capable of being greater...Its not something that I think I have read in my bible

I will have to get back to you on that passage, I dont memorize where to find it just the message that I get from it. But Im sure someone here will know what passage I am refering to. If I find it before they do I will post it here.

I realize that anyone who takes the Bible literally will beg to differ on my view, but this is my personal understanding that I wish to share.

Did that make my view a little bit clearer?
Kelcie

[Kelcie]

Hi Faithfulservant

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

I am curious where you get that quote about us being capable of being greater...Its not something that I think I have read in my bible.

I couldnt edit my post for some reason, however, I found the passage I was refering to on the net.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

John Darby Synopsis extract
He had declared the name of the Father; and if they were unable to see the Father in Him, or to be convinced of it by His words, they ought to have known it by His works; for the Father who dwelt in Him-He it was who did the works. This depended on His own Person, being still in the world; but a striking proof was connected with His departure. After He was gone, they would do even greater works than He did, because they should act in connection with His greater nearness to the Father. This was requisite to His glory. It was even unlimited. He placed them in immediate connection with the Father by the power of His work and of His name; and whatsoever they should ask the Father in His name, Christ Himself would do it for them. Their request should be heard and granted by the Father-shewing what nearness He had acquired for them; and He (Christ) would do all they should ask. For the power of the Son was not, and could not be, wanting to the Father's will: there was no limit to His power.


Perhaps the way I said it did not make sense thats why you couldnt remember it sorry about that. (I always say it how I understand it)

Kelcie

[Faithfulservant]

I agree if they thought that Jesus was God they would never allow the idea, However Jesus was the son of God, therefore an offspring as we are, in human form subject to the same laws of gravity and the like as we are. He wasnt saying we could be greater than God but greater than him as a human being. Meaning depending on what we received from God (our manner of love)we could do greater things if God so intends us to.

Ok I understand now.. we can do greater things because He ascended to the Father and He works in us.. Yes I agree on that point.

Just need a little clarification. Jesus set himself has an example to us as how we should be and then showed us it was impossible? Maybe I am reading it wrong sorry.

Jesus set Himself as an example to us.. He prayed to the Father.. He was sinless...He was baptized.. He studied scripture... the list goes on.. but the fact that He chose to die on the cross for the sins of the world not just the sins of those in His time but the sins of those in our current time.. shows that we cannot live a sinless life. That He HAD to die on the cross in order for us to achieve a state of righteousness so that we in fact could ascend to the Father as well.

For me he indeed set himself as an example. For me the ego is not trivial. Jesus overcome the physical limitations that man of those times thought was impossible. He demonstrated the impossible was possible. These perceived limitations are what the ego lead us to believe. He rose above it and gave us clues as to how we get rid of it. Hate, jealousy,greed, Lust, desire in all its different shades (being part of the ego as we know it today) needed to be eradicated.

Jesus was fully man and fully God. It was not impossible for Him to acheive these things.

I realize that anyone who takes the Bible literally will beg to differ on my view, but this is my personal understanding that I wish to share.

This is a Christian forum and most of us do take the bible literally. Thanks for sharing though.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

This is a Christian forum and most of us do take the bible literally.

Hi Faithfulservant and Kelcie (welcome to CR, by the way ),

Just to clarify, and in all gentleness, one does not need to take the bible in a single, literal-factual way to be a Christian, inside or outside CR.

peace,
lunamoth

[Faithfulservant]

Just wary of another SS...my apologies.

[Kelcie]

Hi Faithfulservant,

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Just wary of another SS...my apologies.

What is an SS? Would you mind sharing?

Kelcie

[Kelcie]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Kelcie (welcome to CR, by the way ),

Hi lunamoth,

Thank you for your kind welcome. It is good to be here.

Kelcie

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Kelcie

Hi Faithfulservant,


What is an SS? Would you mind sharing?

Kelcie

Let's just say there was a member that had a force of will, a strong personal belief, and insistence that it be shared with all to the point of alienating many of the members of CR (many left because of it, unfortunately).

v/r

Q

[Kelcie]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Let's just say there was a member that had a force of will, a strong personal belief, and insistence that it be shared with all to the point of alienating many of the members of CR (many left because of it, unfortunately).

v/r

Q

Hi Quaholm1,

Thanks for clarifying.

I must apologize if I have come across like this SS person. My intention is not to force my will, or my personal beliefs on anyone. I understand that each are at their own level of understanding which I thought was clear in most of my posts, not only in this thread but others. Like most on the CR I am here to learn more. I make no claims that my level of understanding is the "ultimate understanding". If I share it is in the hope that I too can gain more insight from other peoples view or rebuttals!

However if this is the way I have been perceived and will be perceived, there is not much I can do about it except refrain from sharing my views.

Thanks again
Kelcie

[Quahom1]

However if this is the way I have been perceived and will be perceived, there is not much I can do about it except refrain from sharing my views.

Call it a concerned thought expressed out loud. I see nothing wrong here. We are simply going through a period of re-stablizing.

I don't know if you are familiar with the "Canary in the coal mine" concept?

Some of us are such hardened miners, that we don't notice a change in the air, but the most sensitive of nature's "sensors" (the canary), is. So we look to the canary to warn us when things are beginning to change.

We cannot isolate various concepts of Christianity, as that would defeat the very purpose of CR. But we must have consideration for others' sensibilities, considering that within the Christian world, there is a plethora of subtle differences that we must respect.

If you notice...Christianity is the hottest thing going on in "town" here, and for good reason. We have lot's of ideas and beliefs we want to share. And we tend to get frustrated when "others" don't get it (just look at some of my posts).

Your thoughts are most welcome here, as are others.

v/r

Q

[Kelcie]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Call it a concerned thought expressed out loud. I see nothing wrong here. We are simply going through a period of re-stablizing.

I don't know if you are familiar with the "Canary in the coal mine" concept?

Some of us are such hardened miners, that we don't notice a change in the air, but the most sensitive of nature's "sensors" (the canary), is. So we look to the canary to warn us when things are beginning to change.

We cannot isolate various concepts of Christianity, as that would defeat the very purpose of CR. But we must have consideration for others' sensibilities, considering that within the Christian world, there is a plethora of subtle differences that we must respect.

If you notice...Christianity is the hottest thing going on in "town" here, and for good reason. We have lot's of ideas and beliefs we want to share. And we tend to get frustrated when "others" don't get it (just look at some of my posts).

Your thoughts are most welcome here, as are others.

Hi Quaholm1,

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

I have gained a greater understanding from it.

Kelcie