Genesis 3:24

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Cage

Joshua, thanks for your input. I've felt like earth was Eden for years, but I could never get past the flaming sword bit, or the part about us being cast out. I was reading Genesis, and I had my thought, lol. Sometimes they stick, and sometimes they don't, but this concept makes almost perfect sense to me.

The only thing I find disturbing about it is-what if this is all there is? Jesus said life eternal, and I don't view him as being a liar. How would this theory become valid in what Jesus taught us about everlasting life?


James

The place where the faithful stand in the Temple, was that all there was? No, within the Temple was an inner sanctum, or Holy of Holies which was seperated by a "veil". Yet both parts were located within the Temple.

If one not a priest entered the Holy of Holies, they would die. It was not a symbolic concept. People would really die.

Perhaps Heaven and earth are like Eden and out side of Eden, and there is a veil that cuts the two off...however, I still believe that were it to be discovered and the unprepared try to pass from earth to Eden, they too would be killed instantly.

v/r

Joshua

[Cage]

Now that is a disturbing thought...

I'm not sure how to respond as I think differently than you on this issue. I don't think it is possible to even get close to Eden w/o first being prepared in heart, and even then I don't think we have a permanent residence as we will always have our inner demons to overcome...even daily.

I think that Eden is that place where we feel peace in this world, within ourselves, as well as an overwhelming comfort and serenity even in the midst of hardships. That to me is Eden, and the kingdom of Heaven on earth.

I know far too little about the Holy of Holies to comment on it, so I'll leave that to the better educated on the subject...


James

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Cage

Would you say that the majority of the people and the majority of thier time on earth, are spent in a virtual hell, then? I think only true surrender to G-d will allow one to rid themselves of these sinful spirits. The wages of sin is death, but we are not always able to control our seat of soul (heart)...only by surrendering to Love can we ever hope to overcome, or die to the carnal man.

I disagree with there being a final destination, tho. I believe that life is a journey of growth, and in heaven, I also believe we will make mistakes and be allowed to learn from them. I'm not sure if we will ever completely rid ourselves of the negatives, but if you're in the process of becoming, then you have the tools to consistantly overcome that which harms you, and it will be those who make the grade, imo.


like you prober, thoughts in process....

Well, Jesus expressed quite a different view of things to come (now, and in the future):

Hebrews 10:1-22, "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshipers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having a high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water."
In the Old Testament, they used to offer sacrifices each year to cover the people's sins. The blood of Jesus does far more then cover sins, it takes them away. It removes them from your identity... it removes them from you as far as the east to the west! Psalms 103:12, "As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us."
Revelations 1:5, "And from Jesus Christ, who... washed us from our sins in his own blood."
Psalms 103:12, "As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us."
Matthew 26:28, "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." Do you know what the NT Greek has to say about the word 'remission' here? "Forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty."
Christ died so your conscience could be cleansed

2 Cor 5:17, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Why do you think God wanted us to be new creations when we enter His royal family? Because He doesn't want your past to be a part of you anymore! He wants you to be washed clean from all your sins and wiped clean from your past!
Isaiah 43:25, "I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins."
God knew that if He didn't forget our sins, they would forever be before Him, and it would hinder the closeness that He desires to have with us. Therefore, God Himself said that for His own sake, He chose to not only forgive your sins, but also forget them and cast them into the depths of the sea (Micah 7:19).
Hebrews 9:14, "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"
Not only did God chose to forget your sins, but He also wants you to forget them as well. God's Word tells us to, "...draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water." (Hebrews 10:22)

So it appears that once cleansed of all our transgressions, not only will God forget them, but we will forget them as well.

No man it seems that enters into the realm of God will have any vestiges of the failed part of his/her past. Hence anger, selfishness, greed and so on, can't be taken with you...

v/r

Joshua

[Cage]

Awsome! That was an inspiring and very hopeful post...thank you! So does this mean that while we are here on earth that we cannot enter this realm, or does it just mean that I need more work, or more faith, or more understanding? My past haunts my dreams, and I do sometimes struggle with some of those negative spirits we've talked about in this thread.

I still have trouble viewing Christ as G-d, but I certainly see divinity in him, if that makes sense. I fully trust his teachings, but I have not yet fully embraced him, or his sacrifice. I have a better understanding, but I have not yet come to the realization, ya know?

Perhaps this is and will continue to be my biggest delimma concerning Christ, and finding my own salvation in him. I'm learning as I go/grow in G-ds Love.


James

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Cage

Now that is a disturbing thought...

I'm not sure how to respond as I think differently than you on this issue. I don't think it is possible to even get close to Eden w/o first being prepared in heart, and even then I don't think we have a permanent residence as we will always have our inner demons to overcome...even daily.

I think that Eden is that place where we feel peace in this world, within ourselves, as well as an overwhelming comfort and serenity even in the midst of hardships. That to me is Eden, and the kingdom of Heaven on earth.

I know far too little about the Holy of Holies to comment on it, so I'll leave that to the better educated on the subject...


James

I believe Eden is right here with us right now (we just can't see it, but sometimes we come close). The reason we can't see it is due to the distractions each of us have within our own lives. Mostly the distraction of guilt (whether self imposed, imposed falsley by the deceiver, or because of the conviction of God upon our souls). Two forms are harsh and overinflated (if not totally false), while one is a gentle calling to us to turn towards the Creator.

My mother once told me that when a man even begins to turn towards God, all of heaven holds its breath...

Why? Because when man turns towards God, that is one step closer to heaven becoming perfect, for God's original plan and design to flesh out into reality.

She said there will be two choirs in heaven, that of the angels, and that of man. When the angels sing, man will be stunned by the power and beauty of the sound...but when man sings, the angels will be brought to tears, because they will hear the song of salvation, which has no equal in the universe...because a song of love and gratitude has no equal, for even the angels can not fathom salvation, but man's song will give them a revelation to what it means to be saved...

Think about it. In the Bible, angels are protectors, messengers, and minister to our needs...but not once does an angel preach about salvation. They can't. They have no reference point, in which to do so.

v/r

Joshua

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Cage

Awsome! That was an inspiring and very hopeful post...thank you! So does this mean that while we are here on earth that we cannot enter this realm, or does it just mean that I need more work, or more faith, or more understanding? My past haunts my dreams, and I do sometimes struggle with some of those negative spirits we've talked about in this thread.

I still have trouble viewing Christ as G-d, but I certainly see divinity in him, if that makes sense. I fully trust his teachings, but I have not yet fully embraced him, or his sacrifice. I have a better understanding, but I have not yet come to the realization, ya know?

Perhaps this is and will continue to be my biggest delimma concerning Christ, and finding my own salvation in him. I'm learning as I go/grow in G-ds Love.


James

Well, then a suggestion would be to take it one step at a time. No sense in trying to tear off a pound of meat, when one can only swallow a mouthful at any given moment...Cage, even I can only chew on what I can handle, just like you.

No offense meant, but by your own admission, you've only been at this a little while..."young teeth" are not as strong as older, more sharpened teeth...eh?

v/r

Joshua

[Cage]

Your mother sounds like a beautiful woman, Joshua. I got chills over the angels coming to tears over songs of salvation. Thanks for that...

I have that feeling of guilt sometimes (Self imposed) but I am most certainly trying to rid myself of it. I understand G-d's love, and I know in my heart that I have been forgiven through Christ; it is the details that worry me so much, and my own tendency to fall from what I so deeply believe in.

Well, then a suggestion would be to take it one step at a time. No sense in trying to tear off a pound of meat, when one can only swallow a mouthful at any given moment...Cage, even I can only chew on what I can handle, just like you.

No offense meant, but by your own admission, you've only been at this a little while..."young teeth" are not as strong as older, more sharpened teeth...eh?

That is exactly why I like it here, Joshua. There are so many 'seasoned' in this faith on these boards that I can get a good understanding just by throwing thoughts and ideas, and concepts and such of of you people.

One step at a time...sometimes I'm very slow to learn while other times quick, but I'm constantly moving forward in my faith.


Thank you,


James

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Cage

Your mother sounds like a beautiful woman, Joshua. I got chills over the angels coming to tears over songs of salvation. Thanks for that...

I have that feeling of guilt sometimes (Self imposed) but I am most certainly trying to rid myself of it. I understand G-d's love, and I know in my heart that I have been forgiven through Christ; it is the details that worry me so much, and my own tendency to fall from what I so deeply believe in.




That is exactly why I like it here, Joshua. There are so many 'seasoned' in this faith on these boards that I can get a good understanding just by throwing thoughts and ideas, and concepts and such of of you people.

One step at a time...sometimes I'm very slow to learn while other times quick, but I'm constantly moving forward in my faith.


Thank you,


James

LOL, there is one more "Mom-ism". Once on the path, there is no slow or fast, there is only, in yours and God's good time, see now you're partners...

[Thomas]

Hi Cage –

I'm not sure how to respond as I think differently than you on this issue. I don't think it is possible to even get close to Eden w/o first being prepared in heart,

"And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Matthew 3:2

The word for 'repent' in the NT is from the Greek 'metanoeo' – which means 'change of heart', so your idea is quite close to what Christ was preaching – not that that we have to be ascetic athletes or intellectual giants – all that is required is a 'change of heart' ... and the rest follows naturally, and supernaturally, but repentence is usually expressed sentimentally – and sometimes over-sentimentally – sorrow, chest-beating, tears – the whole process of beating ourselves up, which although is part, is also deceptively not all that 'metanoia' is about.

I did a quick search. In the OT 'repent' is from the Hebrew nacham:
1) to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted

The Greek metanoeo:
1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

I think that Eden is that place where we feel peace in this world, within ourselves, as well as an overwhelming comfort and serenity even in the midst of hardships. That to me is Eden, and the kingdom of Heaven on earth.

And I tend to agree with that idea – without necessarily discounting others – Eden is an intimate experience of the Divine.

I don't think we have a permanent residence as we will always have our inner demons to overcome...even daily.

Indeed we do, but help is ever at hand – and here we can draw strength – the Father is ever ready to forgive, and the Holy Spirit is ever active in realising that forgiveness, that 'change of heart'.

When I gave up smoking, I used to be offered cigarettes and I would say: "I've given up," and be met with a wave of sympathy, support, admiration, suspicion ... but all of it, positive or negative, reinforced me as a smoker battling with a habit, and I lasted a couple of weeks ... the 2nd time I gave up, (22 years ago) I would say "I don't smoke" and the different order of response was stunning ... it was simply 'nothing' ...

So if we run around crying "I am a sinner, oh forgive me! Oh, what a dreadful person ... " this is not a change of heart, it's just a change of attitude, we're still steeped in what we were...

So if we run around crying "I am saved! I am born again!" ... ditto.

"Behold thou art made whole: sin no more, lest some worse thing happen to thee."
John 5:14

"Then Jesus lifting up himself, said to her: Woman, where are they that accused thee? Hath no man condemned thee? Who said: No man, Lord. And Jesus said: Neither will I condemn thee. Go, and now sin no more."
John 8:10-11

D'you see what I'm getting at? No big deal. No tears. No sackcloth and ashes. No baggage ... Don't think about it. Forget it. Just don't do it any more.

There's an old Tommy Cooper joke:
Patient: "Doctor, my arm hurts when I do this."
Doctor: "Well don't do it then."

I'm trying to get at the simplicity of it. Change of heart is profound, you are transformed. You will see the world through new eyes.

As the Buddhist say:
Chop wood, carry water ... even in Eden you have to boil a kettle to make a cup of tea ...

Thomas

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

My mother once told me that when a man even begins to turn towards God, all of heaven holds its breath...

Why? Because when man turns towards God, that is one step closer to heaven becoming perfect, for God's original plan and design to flesh out into reality.

She said there will be two choirs in heaven, that of the angels, and that of man. When the angels sing, man will be stunned by the power and beauty of the sound...but when man sings, the angels will be brought to tears, because they will hear the song of salvation, which has no equal in the universe...because a song of love and gratitude has no equal, for even the angels can not fathom salvation, but man's song will give them a revelation to what it means to be saved...
v/r

Joshua

This is the beautiful thing!

[Prober]

Perhaps, to summarize, we can say that the point of life here on earth is to gradually make it a heaven within you so that when you see Heaven you can say "Hey, that looks like my neighborhood" or something like that.