Gender

[China Cat Sunflower]

But aren't hermaphrodites sort of under the category of "all of the above"? Take away the terms male and female and try to define hermaphrodite by itself. Now androgen is a little harder, but there, arguably of course, we're back in the realm of gender.

What I see happening is a flipping and flopping back and forth between sex and gender. "Sex this, and this, so therefore gender...must be this", or vice versa. That's really confusing.

Chris

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Well, there's always 'chicks with dicks,' or less bluntly, hermaphrodites.

You blew it, you almost had me there for a minute but you are not getting me to agree that these people are anything but mentally confused about their sex or desperately in need of money.

[17th Angel]

There ARE as I said only two... Things such as "chicks with dicks" that isn't a freaking gender... It's a Freak of nature lol.... It is mutation of an oringinal one of the two... That doesn't make it a new gender :\ Be it a woman with balls or a bloke with man boobs.... Or someone with both.... It ain't

Some bloke gets born with three arms and a foot growing out of his face... Does that make a new race? Or is it just a mutation of a current breed?

[Pathless]

Chris was asking about biological sex as different from gender. He was asking if there could possibly be more than two biological sexes: man/woman; male/female; xy/xx. I offered hermaphrodites as a possible third biological sex; not gender per se, but biological sex.

It is confusing. I'm not trying to manipulate the issue. I was trying to answer Chris's question with a bit of crude humor, perhaps a mistake . As far as hermaphrodites not being a third distinct biological sex, but an 'all of the above' category... look at it this way:

Biological Sex as Determinted by Anatomical Fixtures:

1) Has a vagina
2) Has a penis
3) Has both (all of the above)

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

You blew it, you almost had me there for a minute but you are not getting me to agree that these people are anything but mentally confused about their sex or desperately in need of money.

What, because they were born with both a penis and a vagina? Yes, that would be confusing, especially with all of the hoopla about being born a hermaphrodite being some kind of mistake, or as 17th so compassionately puts it, 'It's a Freak of nature lol....'

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Pathless

What, because they were born with both a penis and a vagina? Yes, that would be confusing, especially with all of the hoopla about being born a hermaphrodite being some kind of mistake, or as 17th so compassionately puts it, 'It's a Freak of nature lol....'

Hi Pathless

I can't say I have ever heard of anyone born with both a vagina and a penis, shall have to look it up. The only chicks with dicks I have heard of are young males that still have male genitalia but medically change their bodies to develop breasts, have their adams apple shaved off, etc. So my comment was not aimed at anyone that is born with the genitalia of both sexes - just my lack of education showing through.

I have thought much about this topic and today asked myself a question. What if a friend told me they were born a different sex, would that change our friendship. It is hard to say, as I have never been in the situation but I would like to think that no, it would not. I care about the person, not the wobbly bits they have and everything I liked about the person would still be there.

That said respect does come into it. A few years ago a very close friend told me that her husband, a man I like very much, likes to wear ladies clothes in the house and has difficulty sexually if not dressed in ladies underwear. Do I feel differently about him now? Unfortunately the answer is yes, I find it difficult to respect him now. I am concerned for his mental wellbeing, concerned that the issue has driven him to drink, to the point that divorce is now inevitable. I accept that can be seen as my prejudice showing through but I am afraid I find it unnatural and desperately want him to seek professional help, rather than shrug and say it doesn't change our relationship.

[China Cat Sunflower]

It must be very, very hard being a hermaphrodite. Not only for the individual, but for the parents. When my oldest daughter was four all of her hair fell out. The medical establishment couldn't give us any good information as to why or what the prognosis might be. The pediatric dermatologist wanted to start acid treatments on her scalp to irritate the follicles into growing hair. That didn't make any sense to me. We took her to a naturopathic doctor who prescribed a regimen of natural topical treatments for the scalp and nutritional supplements. Thankfully, after what seemed an interminable period of time her hair slowly started to grow back in. The point is, my wife and I were nearly out of our minds with worry. I have serious compassion for parents of children born hermaphroditic, just as I have compassion and empathy with people who must endure a life so different from their peers. It is an alien and inhospitable world for them- one in which they can never fit in.

Chris

[Pathless]

About hermaphrodite humans from wikipedia:

About 1 in every 150,000-250,000 human births is a hermaphrodite. In many cases, humans who are born as hermaphordites later have surgery in order to remove either the male or female organs so as to be classified as either a female or male. This can help them avoid social or societal stigmatisms that are often associated with hermaphrodites. However, this may cause problems as most of the time such corrective surgery is performed when the person is a infant. It is possible the wrong set of organs will be removed as it will not yet be clear which set is "right" and which set is "wrong" according to their true gender. In addition the person may never feel truly male or female, even after having surgery.

Some other links about hermaphrodites and related conditions:

Hermaphrodite: fast facts at gURL.com
Hermaphrodite Education & Listening Post
BORN TRUE HERMAPHRODITE - Pictorial Profile
Being A True Hermaphrodite - About Me
MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia: Intersex
On the Word "Hermaphrodite" | Intersex Society of North America

[Muslimwoman]

Now there is a subject I wish I had not googled for, yuk how easy is it for our kids to see hard core porn

Well after checking out your links Pathless I will have to change my mind and say there are 3 genders/sexes, male, famale and both. You learn something new every day.

[Pathless]

Speaking of gender, what is it to be "manly"? Is a man made of sweat and hard work, of stoicism and grunting resolve? Is he a provider of finances and material resources, a patriarch, and a gentleman who needs and deserves a submissive woman?

Or is there something missing in that description? Have men in patriarchal societies been unfairly compartmentalized as human beings, relegated to labor, combat, policy-making, and even intellectual pursuits, yet banished from the realm of feeling and deep experience?

Yes I am playing up a stereotype that we've already discussed somewhat in order to drive home a point.

In The Trickster, Magician & Grieving Man, Glen A. Mazis breaks much-needed ground in gender studies, challenging the millenia-old institution of manhood as stoic, unfeeling heroicism. Much more work should be done in this area of reclaiming masculinity from the steel, warlike, goal-oriented, patriarchal ideal that has led humainty to this dead-end materialistic and spiritual crisis that we now face. In order to go forward as a cooperative, peaceful species, we must begin to re-envision masculinity. As the women's movements have opened options for women, men must now begin to reclaim a more holistic, rounded concept of gender identity. We must be willing as men to face emotions and to be comfortable in our bodies as our connection to the world, rather than stifling or short-circuiting our emotions and blunting our bodies until they are merely vehicles and tools to carry out our intellectual and (im)personal wills.

Glen Mazis writes in the Introduction of his book:

Our sense of masculinity and heroism may have been distorted by a certain obscuring view of the past that claimed to see all of it. This view claimed to reveal our male "essence," when actually it may have been hiding part of our legacy to be more fully human. The masculine has been understood in terms of a particular sense of the hero, a cult of the hero, that may have been misrepresented to us from the time of the classical Greeks onward. We may find that the true here is a different kind of male than we thought he was.

Part of the traditional male way of understanding is to assume that what is said is what is explicitly stated, what is clearly argued and presented, and not to pay much attention to the tone of what is said or to the metaphors and images invoked. However, I have found that much of what is conveyed to others comes through images, metaphors, tone, and emotion. It may be true that both [Robert] Bly and [George Herbert] Bush qualify what they say about maleness and war, but the images they invoke belie their limited understanding of the mature, complete male self and his relationship to the Earth. That is why it is important to speak with new images, even if they jar at first.

I choose to think of males "flowering" in new possibilities because it is time that men were identified with this beauty, this organic growth, this rootedness, this interconnectedness with the Earth. Flowers have been seen as either "effeminate" or "feminine" by previous generations of males. However, it is important to point out that flowers enliven the world. Furthermore, although a part of nature, flowers also enliven urban landscapes as well as wild ones. As such, they remind men that nature's enlivening power and beauty is everywhere. This power doesn't have to be sought on some grand quest or by retreating from mundane life and connection. Lastly, flowers are also bred in such a way that new hybrids emerge in a cooperation of natural fecundity and reflective intervention, as I hope new ways to be male can be bred.

Words and phrases like "cooperation", "fecundity", and "reflective intervention" are indeed radical concepts to apply to male gender stereotypes. Competition--not cooperation--is the norm in masculine society; fecundity is the dark and unapproachable earthiness of natural women; and what the heck does reflective intervention mean anyway, wonders the manly man.

I wonder how much of our competitive, unfeeling, analytical, goal-oriented, and forward-moving archetypal male is rooted in religions that see God as a Father who is in a transcendent heavenly realm. Part of the danger of forward-moving and -thinking masculinity that Mazis addresses in his book is that such energy does not stop to experience or reflect. Always plowing forward into the next area of "progress," such heroic masculine energy seems incapable of pausing to actually assess the progress of the situation.

Take George W. Bush's administration and the "War on Terror" as an example. Back in September of 2001--almost six years ago now--this administration embarked on a forward-moving, open-ended war. The main theater has shifted from Afghanistan to Iraq, yet no substantial assessment of the situation has been made by the administration. Insted, they shove aside or sneer at any attempts of assessment and critique by other branches of their own government--not to mention non-governmental organizations and foreign powers--and forge ahead towards some unachievable ideal of total victory.

I don't want to digress into a political critique of war policy here; rather I'd like to hold the current administration's war efforts up as a prime exampe of the forward-moving, damn-the-opposition, grinding along until the bitter end archetype of masculinity that has been glorified for the last 4000 years or so, ever since Gilgamesh plowed forth from Uruk in his conquest, subordination, and destruction of nature and life. Of course he did this for the noblest of reasons--for the glorification of man (or more specifically, himself ) and in a quest for immortality.

Myths and legends abound that illustrate the folly of such an approach. Yet we are still, as a society, acting out these juvenille fantasies of masculine heroicism, imagining that we are somehow redeeming ourselves and the world and gaining immortality while we go about wreaking havoc, mass death, and wanton destruction.

What's up with that? Anyone else think it might be time for a change?

[dauer]

What's up with that? Anyone else think it might be time for a change?

I do, but no surprise there.

Hey, who's up for a round of kumbaya and a good cry?

[Muslimwoman]

I am sorry but I don't want a man that sits around knitting, in his frilly pinny and pink slippers, wondering whether his inner emotional child is getting the support it needs. Could I love that person for their intellect, yes, for their role as a loving husband and/or father, yes but overall as a man, no. I also don't want an unfeeling, grunting, sweating pig that thinks it is his right to control me. I just want a man, a normal man that understands his role in life, as I hope I understand mine. He can cry when he is sad and laugh when he is happy, he can do the grocery shopping and I can put the new shelves up (well if I wait for him it will never happen). I don't want to be submissive to my man but I want to know that when push comes to shove he will take the cockroach out of the bathtub, not the other way around. Tht if I hear a noise in the middle of the night he is not going to send me out to investigate. It may not be for everyone but I have to respect my partner and for me that means a degree of the stereotypical 'male' role. Sorry.

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I am sorry but I don't want a man that sits around knitting, in his frilly pinny and pink slippers, wondering whether his inner emotional child is getting the support it needs. Could I love that person for their intellect, yes, for their role as a loving husband and/or father, yes but overall as a man, no. I also don't want an unfeeling, grunting, sweating pig that thinks it is his right to control me. I just want a man, a normal man that understands his role in life, as I hope I understand mine. He can cry when he is sad and laugh when he is happy, he can do the grocery shopping and I can put the new shelves up (well if I wait for him it will never happen). I don't want to be submissive to my man but I want to know that when push comes to shove he will take the cockroach out of the bathtub, not the other way around. Tht if I hear a noise in the middle of the night he is not going to send me out to investigate. It may not be for everyone but I have to respect my partner and for me that means a degree of the stereotypical 'male' role. Sorry.

Hey, you don't need to apologize or get defensive. It sounds to me like you are somewhere in the middle and want for yourself a reasonable relationship between two partners. It also seems like you are accepting of others, but know what you want out of a male/female relationship. That's cool.

Can we get beyond a male/female relationship here, though? I'm interested in people's opinions about the masculine attitude towards the world as something to be conquered, controlled, and manipulated. Do you think this is a healthy approach, or something that has outlived its usefulness?

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, all!

Hmmm, dare I begin to interject here?

First, I'm not certain I agree with the distinctions made here regarding the use of the terms "gender" and "sex,", but for continuity I will try to maintain. Allow me to ask for clarification though...if I understand correctly, here we are using the term sex to indicate (what I would consider gender) male / female "plumbing," and using the term gender to indicate the social roles and cultural expectations. Is this correct?

From there, my first comment is that it seems to me kinda, well...non-sensical to compare the human condition with that of other animals, particularly non-mammalian animals. It seems to me far more of a political "grasping-at-straws" than anything resembling science. So what if a fish can change sex? So what if garden snails are all hermaphrodites? This proves nothing regarding the human condition, it only serves as political fodder to support a political position in support of a lifestyle, a lifestyle that in modern times in the developed world until recently was generally regarded as...odd, to be polite. Otherwise, considering sex in the animal world, I find it a bit intriguing that there is yet another status or condition that is overlooked here (and everywhere I have seen similar discussion). Of course, that natural condition of sex serves no purpose in furthering the agenda of those seeking political justification and sanction for an extra-cultural lifestyle.

That sex is neuter, sexless. My example is worker bees and ants. This natural example is not ever raised because it serves no validating justification for personal choices. It is much easier to affiliate with creatures that conform to personal choices to serve as validation and justification...nevermind that some of the examples are cold-blooded or spineless or hairless, etc., let alone incapable of conscious decision making with foresight nor exhibiting even rudimentary herd / pack morality. The logic escapes me without the politics, in no other sphere are humans so apt to equate themselves with invertebrates or cold-blooded critters. I almost forgot to add, that in every example of animal sex reassignment it is always, *always*, without exception, to further the species, for procreative purposes.

I suppose it is now time to be lashed with the limp noodle of the accusation of "homophobe." *Sigh.* In truth I am phobic, of a number of things, but of homosexuals I am not. I have friends who are homosexual, that is their choice. It is not mine. I love them no less, but I do disagree with the lifestyle *choice.* And choice it is. There is no genetic evidence to conclusively indicate that sexual preference is anything but choice. In other words, homosexuality is an epigenetic learned behaviour, as is "gender" as the term is being used in this thread. In the case of genuine hermaphrodites a case might be made for holding the innate psychology of both sexes at birth, but the parent's choice to raise a child as either / or serves to determine which gender role such a child would affiliate with. A lot also has to do with cultural views concerning gender ambiguity...some cultures do not look favorably upon hermaphroditism and encourage siding with one gender or the other, whereas other cultures actually view the rarity of hermaphroditism as a good omen and such a person is allowed something of a charmed life and viewed by the society as a blessing.

Now, as for the cultural roles we play, a great deal has to do with which specific culture we are referring to, what period of time, etc. The "classical Greece" mentioned above encouraged male to male "love," believing it served to strengthen the bonds even between soldiers on the battlefield. So there is some distortion, confusion, or at least something amiss with the stereotype being forwarded here about males and females. In normative times in any culture, there are certain expectations put upon each gender by weight of social history and consensus. In exceptional times, gender roles can be blurred without consequence, such as women taking up arms in time of war, or men caring for children in the aftermath of a natural disaster. I think we also tend to confuse our current understanding, thinking modern examples serve to illustrate gender expectations across all cultures at all times. Not all cultures are patriarchal, and not all are "firm" in drawing gender role expectations. So we really need to clarify where we are coming from and not automatically presume that all other cultures mimic our own.

The goal and purpose of civilization is the thriving and expansion of the human race. We tend to get a bit too focused on the individual at times, and lose sight of the fact that the world does not revolve around any singular one of us. Justification for our own selfish desires is beside the point...if there is no progeny, there is no future to worry about. The homosexual lifestyle does not *of itself* promote the species, two men alone cannot create a child, nor can two women (technology notwithstanding). Outside of that biological imperitive, it really depends on extraneous functions and contributions a person serves within a social context. If a person is deliberately deviant for the sake of social disharmony (this includes but is by no means limited to sexuality), that person can hardly expect to be welcomed openly by that society. Yet, in another time and place, what is considered deviant behaviour might be social norm (there are exceptions even to this exception). That is part of the beauty of being human, the range of colors on the palette of social expression, even if most cultures tend towards being more or less monochromatic at any given time.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, all!

Otherwise, considering sex in the animal world, I find it a bit intriguing that there is yet another status or condition that is overlooked here (and everywhere I have seen similar discussion). Of course, that natural condition of sex serves no purpose in furthering the agenda of those seeking political justification and sanction for an extra-cultural lifestyle.

That sex is neuter, sexless.

Since we're on about considering sex in the animal world, I recalled yet another sex exhibited by the animal kingdom: asexual. Since humans share so much of our genome with fish and snails, I suppose it is only right to consider the lowly yeast, with which we share fully half of our genome, and which reproduces asexually.

Of course, I doubt there's any political hay to make out of that realization either...

I think that brings the count of various sexes up to 5: male, female, hermaphrodite, neuter and asexual.

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I think that brings the count of various sexes up to 5: male, female, hermaphrodite, neuter and asexual.

Nice... are you going to vote in the poll?