Gender

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Let me ask a question: Having babies is a proprietary function of women. Men can't have babies. So we can say that having babies is a natural role for women. What is the natural role of men? Not functionally, as an aspect of social order or culture, but as a natural, biological function in comparison to women having babies? Isn't it true that the cultural, social roles assigned to women are a counter-function of men having to invent a role for themselves since they aren't needed for anything beyond being sperm donors? Aren't all gender roles pretty much defined by the roles men have assumed to justify their somewhat dubious claim to non-expendability? And if that's the case, do we have any real idea of what is "natural" in terms of gender roles?

Chris

Heh. Now we are beginning to get to the interesting talk. Chris, are you suggesting that gender is a social construct, rather than being a strictly biological phenomenon?


As far as male pregnancy goes, there is speculation on that as well. I recenlty read an article in Seattle's newsmag The Stranger that is all about male pregnancy (check it out here). And here is another article about a doctor in China who is looking to get a transsexual or several pregnant! The science is risky and dubious, but since a fetus doesn't really need a womb to grow in, only an organ or some tissue to grow on, some people are taking the idea of male pregnancy quite seriously. I know what you are wondering--yes, the man would have to have a c-section. No birth canal, no babies coming out of a penis.

Oh and don't be fooled by this site, which is an artist's little sociological head game.


Excerpt from article "Getting Patrick Pregnant":

Compared to the feats of, say, IVF, or the birth-control pill, or bone-marrow transplantation, the challenges of a male pregnancy seem trivial.

But when you throw gender in a blender, people freak out. This leads me to believe, as Patrick hypothesizes, that the first cases of male pregnancy, whenever they are, will arise out of dire circumstances. It will be based on need.

[flowperson]

No Chris...I don't believe that we do. Unless you're a seahorse. The males have the babies in that case.

flow....

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Heh. Now we are beginning to get to the interesting talk. Chris, are you suggesting that gender is a social construct, rather than being a strictly biological phenomenon?

I suppose it depends on how one massages the semantics. I was thinking more of gender roles. One the one hand, just because we observe certain arrangements in other animals, or in aboriginal tribal arrangements doesn't necessarily imply that they are reflective of what is "natural" to the human species. Natural under what circumstances? Is what is natural under primitive conditions still "natural" under evolved conditions? A great deal of what are supposed to be "natural" gender roles for men and women are merely reflections of accumulated taboos and conditioned responses to cultural and social mores for which there is no certain sense of origin.

Just thinking out loud...

Chris

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I suppose it depends on how one massages the semantics. I was thinking more of gender roles. One the one hand, just because we observe certain arrangements in other animals, or in aboriginal tribal arrangements doesn't necessarily imply that they are reflective of what is "natural" to the human species. Natural under what circumstances? Is what is natural under primitive conditions still "natural" under evolved conditions? A great deal of what are supposed to be "natural" gender roles for men and women are merely reflections of accumulated taboos and conditioned responses to cultural and social mores for which there is no certain sense of origin.

Just thinking out loud...

Chris

So this to me doesn't sound "natural" at all; instead it sounds like social conditioning.

I don't even want to ask the question, "What is natural?" Too philosophical, too many pieces to pull apart. One could easily make the argument that computers are natural, as they are an extension of the mind of humanity, which is a natural phenomenon. The same could be said for hormone replacement therapy and men having babies. Sometimes our logic and categorizing all just melts down into a gooey puddle, and we have to just look with appreciation at the whole mess, rather than start compartmentalizing again. The minute we start defining something, we've killed it.

With gender, we've boxed ourselves into these stereotypes about "masculine" and "feminine" and made talking about, thinking about, or acting out other, more imaginative types of gender taboo. And this I think leads inevitably to the very kind of reactions that strict categorization of gender sets out to suppress. When people are not allowed to experience their gender as something dynamic, a part of their identity that is also in a state of flux, they may either bow to the constraints imposed by society or suffer from some serious earthquake-like shifts--as in say a man or woman feeling that they are in the wrong body, then taking advantage of the available technology to remedy that situation by making a very drastic change.

My thoughts...

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Pathless

But 17th...

with your eyes and hair and careful grooming, you make such a cute girlish type...
(not to mention your new hamster fetish)

Pathless ducks in anticipation of teh oncoming thrown carr0t

Freak?? And you are one to talk, gore n horror boy??

Peace,
P-Nut

LOL, We're calling you P-nut now eh?.... There is no freaking doubt IF I were a girl I'd be a hot peice.... lol. BUT I ain't Grooming is part of well being... I clean and scrub my hands every day, shower twice a day, daily look after and buffer my nails... So yeah... That is just well being.... I like to look good. That just means I am a male that likes to look good.. :P

What do you mean about my eyes though? lol...

Hell no I ain't throwing teh carr0t. I has teh carr0t! It's mine!


HEY! hey... hey hey hey! Nothing wrong with a bit of flesh and gore!

[flowperson]

Hi Guys !

17th...you're priceless, and I even doubt that you could be bought if you had a price.

Pathless and Chris:

Which all brings to my mind the need for the powers that be to create order out of disorder so that "civilization" may "progress". The story of the first man and first woman in a garden, placed there by their Creator, their betrayal of the Creator's trust, and the limitless penalties and punishments that they and their progeny were to forever experience and endure are all there for one reason.

The myth was composed, redacted, transmitted, and believed for one reason only...to transform the tribal populations of the world into more cohesive and governable populations which might advance the collective desires of the human species to endure and flourish upon the Earth.

Accident ? Coincidence ? Intention ? An open invitation to faithfully follow a hidden power into the future ? Hmmmmmm .

flow....

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Hi Guys !

17th...you're priceless, and I even doubt that you could be bought if you had a price.

*adds that to his scrap book*

That's a keeper.

[flowperson]

Hi: In the interest of muddying the waters even further on this issue, here's a little tidbit from the livescience site:

Sex Drive in Brain, Not Hormones, Study Suggests | LiveScience

[Muslimwoman]

Flow, I can't see how psychological issues can determine gender. I am afraid, imo, plumbing is exactly what determines gender. People may genuinely feel trapped in the wrong body but that body can only be one of two genders, there is no third gender or in between. Chromosomes may not deal with a persons emotional or psychological needs but they are what determines our gender.

Gender roles are social programming - sorry did I just enter the twilight zone? I have yet to meet a man that breast feeds. Modern women may choose to let hubby bottle feed the baby and go off to work but is that the natural gender role? Not in my opinion. Women have babies, no matter how much we tamper with the human body, it requires male sperm and a female egg to produce a baby. Women's bodies then naturally produce nourishment for the baby, whether they like it or not. Women are more emotional than men on the whole, we are 'designed' to be carers, our bodies produce everything our child needs in it's early years. Sorry men but your bodies simply do not have those capabilities. Womens liberation can change the social status of women but it cannot change our biological makeup.

[flowperson]

Hi MW:

I'll grant you that plumbing is plumbing, but beliefs are beliefs. If you have women's plumbing and you believe that you are male, homosexual acting out occurs. That's really all I'm saying here. And the livescience article confirms that phenomenon in mice, even though the vasonasal suppresor machinery does not seem to be functional in primates and humans. However, my contention is that these shifts in behavior still take place in our species because of psychosocial conditioning and emotionally based beliefs. That is still yet to be shown conclusively, so we'll both just have to wait and see.

Now, when it comes to either or equipment questions, I can assure you that there are "hybrid" equipment varieties of people, and they're all around us in everday life...at least they are here in "sin city". Are people only what they appear to be...do we live in a world of "illusion or maya"? Or are we spiritual beings who are the same throughout whether or not our plumbing features comport with what we believe ourselves to bo ? As Pathless pointed out earlier, there are archaic cultures that recognized the existence of a third gender. Maybe it's time to consider that again ?

flow....

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by flowperson

However, my contention is that these shifts in behavior still take place in our species because of psychosocial conditioning and emotionally based beliefs. That is still yet to be shown conclusively, so we'll both just have to wait and see.

Hi Flow

I have no idea why some people are homosexual or feel trapped in the wrong body. I think the difference is whether we are discussing biological gender or gender roles. Gender is determied by biological plumbing and to me there are only 2 choices, male or female. Social gender roles are a whole new ballgame, however I still feel that when a person moves out of their natural role they go against nature. Let's take it to basics, we are all about reproduction and homosexual acts (for both genders) cannot create life without the intervention of medical science, so how can their gender role be seen as natural when it goes against our very purpose?

Originally Posted by flowperson

As Pathless pointed out earlier, there are archaic cultures that recognized the existence of a third gender. Maybe it's time to consider that again ?

What Pathless said was:

Berdaches, from what I understand at this point, were biological males who gravitated towards sterrotypically feminine roles.

Sorry my brain can't get away from the word biological. We can choose, through emotional or pychological need, to change or mix up roles but that is a lifestyle choice. In the far east I saw the most gorgeous young 'ladies', who were of course biological males. All I am saying is that we cannot escape the biology we were born with. Even after major surgery, someone may live as a female, have had their penis removed and a vagina created but it is illusion, scientific trickery. That new female cannot give birth as a woman or produce breast milk, so is still not of the female gender.

[dauer]

Isn't the word sex typically used when referring to biology and gender for issues of societal roles and identity?

[flowperson]

MW:
I agree that your traditional views are valid, but they are being slowly eroded by what we are now able to do with reproductive and surgical technologies. I had the great good fortune, or was it a vile curse, to work at a large university and to participate in the licensing and development of scientific creations that are still influencing the lives of many people worldwide.

Technology always changes peoples lives and moreover, people themselves over the progress of time. Consider automobiles. Would you rather walk five miles back and forth, and spend half a day doing so, to your favorite market, or would you rather drive there and back in an hour? Of course that means you'll probably have to use an electric wheel chair in old age because of the deterioration in your legs, which were designed and fashioned by your H-Box genes for walking.

Likewise, if you are woman trapped in a man's body and wanted to bear children and had sufficiency of monetary resources, would you change your plumbing, use donated eggs contributed by your life partner before she/he had his plumbing surgically changed, have them fertilized with your frozen sperm, implant a viable fetus in a surrogate mother, and hold her hand together with your life partner while YOUR child is born...would you ? That's really all I'm saying. This is happeneing all over the world now on a regular basis. It is a new phase of our evolution ,IMHO, enabled through our technological creations. It is all making portions of the human species into a race of created co-creators.

Is this a good thing ? Can it be stopped ? Should we all learn and accept the fact that this must be dealt with realistically in order to create a viable future for all humans ? I say maybe, no, and yes. Time will tell. But it is what is.
And since you asked on another thread about this, you might be interested in what your prophet Jesus said about it all in The Gospel of Thomas one of the books that didn't make it into the New Testament:

22 Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the<FATHER'S kingdom."
They said to him, "Then shall we enter the<FATHER'S kingdom as babies?"
Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."



flow....

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by flowperson

I agree that your traditional views are valid, but they are being slowly eroded by what we are now able to do with reproductive and surgical technologies.

I cannot see how my traditional values can be eroded. Sorry but to me it is not a matter of tradition, it is simply black and white, we are born male or female. Yes medical science can try to play G-d and change a person's gender but it is fake. That person was not created that gender, so no amount of surgery can actually make them another gender, it only allows them to live as a different gender.

Originally Posted by flowperson

Likewise, if you are woman trapped in a man's body and wanted to bear children and had sufficiency of monetary resources, would you change your plumbing, use donated eggs contributed by your life partner before she/he had his plumbing surgically changed, have them fertilized with your frozen sperm, implant a viable fetus in a surrogate mother, and hold her hand together with your life partner while YOUR child is born...would you ?

Even if all of these things take place, you are creating a baby from a females egg and males sperm, nature demands it. The male is only able to contribute sperm, he cannot give birth, he cannot breast feed, so is not a female. The partner may have major surgery to become male but cannot produce sperm, so is not male.

Would I - The answer is absolutely NO I would not. I am unable to have children, a very sad situation but I have to accept it. I have a problem with science playing G-d in order to simply comply with peoples whims.

Originally Posted by flowperson

That's really all I'm saying. This is happeneing all over the world now on a regular basis. It is a new phase of our evolution ,IMHO, enabled through our technological creations. It is all making portions of the human species into a race of created co-creators.

Co-creators WOW, the arrogance of man never ceases to annoy me However, all I am saying is that no amount of scientific tinkering is actually creating a natural female from a male or a natural male from a female, with the capabilities of the opposite gender.

Originally Posted by flowperson

Is this a good thing ? Can it be stopped ? Should we all learn and accept the fact that this must be dealt with realistically in order to create a viable future for all humans ? I say maybe, no, and yes. Time will tell. But it is what is.

Flow, how can this be about a viable future for humans? Billions of people are born, live and die in their natural gender. They have babies, as nature intended. The worlds population is already out of control, so should we be tinkering with nature to try to provide a different lifestyle for the tiny minority with the money to pay for it? If we start to go down these roads where does it end? Should we try to create men with wombs and women that produce sperm?

Originally Posted by flowperson

And since you asked on another thread about this, you might be interested in what your prophet Jesus said about it all in The Gospel of Thomas one of the books that didn't make it into the New Testament:

Call me a cynic but to me this is suggesting that when we begin to succeed in playing G-d the Day of Judgement is on it's way.

[flowperson]

Hi Mw:

I'm not going to pursue trying to convince you of the nature of the coming realities any more *throws up his hands in exasperation*. What you believe you believe, and experience and faith have led me to believe something else.

Yes, it all may mean that some sort of a judgement day is to come because of what is happening among us...but I don't think it will be a bearded white guy on the ceiling of a church doing the judging.

salaam...flow...