Gems of Divine Mysteries

[Postmaster]

An other thread for the Baha'i faith, I suppose I do have a fascination but not of acceptance. I've come to the conclusion the Baha'i faith is not a divinely inspired religion.
Let me point out the most power part of the Baha'i faith

One of the basic precepts of Baha’is that all the great religions of the world are divine in origin, that their basic principles are in complete harmony. They differ only in their nonessential aspects of their doctrines.

This idea is very great yes! But I do not think there is a religion in the world that specifically disagrees that other religions are not divine, they all only claim to be a rightful path, as the Baha'i faith does itself. This idea has not been disagreed by any religion anyway.
Baha'is believe in a social and spiritual side to religion, they claim that the spiritual side of religion remains the same always as it is universal. Most people will agree that the after life is spiritual and universal part of any religion, so the Baha'i concludes it must end the same way for everyone, that we have an immortal soul and they do not accept reincarnation. However most if not all religions of the world have not specifically disagreed with reincarnation, they only give it's version of the after life, unlike the Baha'i faith that has specifically disagreed with reincarnation. Which I'm sure would leave many many many many millions disagreeing. So long to universalism.

Baha’is beliefs include the oneness of GOD, the soul's immortality, and the evolution (biological, spiritual, and social) of mankind. On the other hand, they reject the common concept of angels. They also reject the Trinity, and the reincarnation teaching of Hinduism.

Conclusion, the Baha'i faith is a cult, which is heretical to all major world religions. Greatest ideas are its harmony with science and the oneness of religion. Harmony is already happening regardless of spiritual faith, even with science. For example Isac Newton! Had a love both for Christ and sceince.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

I've come to the conclusion the Baha'i faith is not a divinely inspired religion.

Accepting that any religion or religious path is "Divinely Inspired" is always going to be a matter of Faith.

[Postmaster]

Yeah well I expected the Baha'i faith to give me an ass kicking in it's theology as to what I was doing wrong socially. It doesn't to the extent Christianity does, its main focus is on religion itself. A religion on religion?

[Mick]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Yeah well I expected the Baha'i faith to give me an ass kicking in it's theology as to what I was doing wrong socially. It doesn't to the extent Christianity does, its main focus is on religion itself. A religion on religion?

Postmaster, I sure wish I could understand you, but I don't. When I read your rants, a lot of the time, I am saying to myself, "What did he say?" What do you mean by religion on religion? Concerning you doing something wrong socially, it has never came up in conversation. Are you doing something wrong? If you recognize that you are, then why would you continue? You surely shouldn't depend on any religion to tell you what is right or wrong. You should have learned that by kindergarten.

The Baha'i Faith is the Administrative Order of the believers of Baha'u'llah. The believers of Baha'u'llah choose to become a part of the Adminstrative Order or they do not, but, irregardless, a Baha'i is somebody that believes in Baha'u'llah and follows the laws He has set down for us. The Baha'i Faith doesn't have its own dogma, as you are probably familiar is prevalent in the Christian churches, but simply adminsters the laws and guidelines as set down by The Bab and Baha'u'llah, clarified by 'Abdu'l-Baha and translated by Shoghi Effendi.

Calling the Baha'i Faith a cult puts us in pretty lofty company, as that is what the "new" foundling Christian religion was called in its first couple of hundred years of existence.

According to Wikepedia, "In religion and sociology, a cult is a cohesive group of people (often a relatively small and recently founded religious movement) devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture or society considers to be far outside the mainstream. Its separate status may come about either due to its novel belief system, because of its idiosyncratic practices or because it opposes the interests of the mainstream culture."

Wikipedia goes on to add, "In the English-speaking countries since about the 1960s, especially in North America, the term cult has taken on a pejorative and sometimes offensive connotation. This largely originated with highly publicized cults that purportedly exploited their members psychologically and financially, or that allegedly utilized group-based persuasion and conversion techniques. These techniques may include "brainwashing", "thought reform", "love bombing", and "mind control", whose scientific validity, modern and historical use, and effectiveness (for religious conversion) are discussed within the linked articles."

Still more, "Some groups use the word to label other groups that they consider to be at variance with their own doctrine, or that they consider to be competition. Some groups called "cults" by some critics may consider themselves not to be "cults", but may also consider some other groups to be "cults"."

Using any of the definitions or somebody else's definition (I would ask you not to use an "I think" type statement, which would be construed as your own definition.) please explain how the Baha'i Faith could be considered a cult accept by the most aggressively ignorant.

Thank you

Mick

[I, Brian]

Postmaster, it seems that at some point you were attracted to the Baha'i faith, and was ready to reject Christian Orthodoxy - but more recently you've decided that the Baha'i faith doesn't fulfill you and that orthodoxy works better for you. If that's your choice, that's great.

But look at your original post - you could go around stating that any religion outside of your own is neither inspired nor accurate. All that does is express your personal viewpoint, but it also denigrates other people's viewpoints.

I'd like to see if we can get some useful discussion out of this thread, not so much on the issues of whether the Baha'i Faith itself is Divinely Inspired or not - as much as to what constitues perceptions of "Divinely Inspired" and how that relates to how we deal with both our own - and other peoples - religious choices.

[lunamoth]

I agree with I, Brian that at the end of the day we each must choose what we believe to be divinely inspired.

I find it very interesting that Postmaster finds that it is the lack of theology as it relates to social behavior that undermines his acceptance of the Baha'i Faith as divinely inspired. I think that the Baha'i Faith has lots of social laws, and in fact as a religion that emphasizes good deeds and adherance to the law over everything else it is more an orthopraxy, like Islam or Judaism, than it is an orthodoxy like Christianity. And also more like Islam in that it is very low on ritual.

I would suggest that anyone interested in the Baha'i Faith read the Kitab-i-Aqdas, the Most Holy Book of Laws. As our Baha'i members have stated it is the most important book in the Baha'i Faith, although perhaps not the book that will convince one that the Baha'i Faith is divinely inspired. For that I would recommend the Kitab-i-Iqan. Both books are in English and quite easy to read in spite of their Arabic-sounding names. The Kitab-i-Iqan is kind of an apologetics aimed at Muslims and Christians explaining how the Revelation of Baha'u'llah fulfills the prophecies of these two religions, and how the Return of Christ anticipated by Muslims and Christians occurred "in clouds," but in a way very much like the first appearance of Christ.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Mick

The Baha'i Faith doesn't have its own dogma, as you are probably familiar is prevalent in the Christian churches, but simply adminsters the laws and guidelines as set down by The Bab and Baha'u'llah, clarified by 'Abdu'l-Baha and translated by Shoghi Effendi.

OK, I don't want to debate the definition of dogma, so I'll just set out the definition I'm using:

dogma: something held as an established opinion, esp. a definite authoritative tenet.

The Baha'i Faith does have dogma. You've given one example yourself:

a Baha'i is somebody that believes in Baha'u'llah and follows the laws He has set down for us.

Another example is that a Baha'i accepts the decisions of the Universal House of Justice as infallible.

peace,
lunamoth

[Postmaster]

Postmaster Vs Baha'is once again. I'm going to stick with it this time. I do not accept Baha'i theology anymore. And I'm very thankfull of all I discovered because a positive came out of it, it made me a better Christian. You know what's really scary about the Baha'i faith, the fact that they think humanity's future is written in stone that everything will be ok! With threat from global warming this could be a bad idea! We are not going to care about global warming because someone said it will be ok..... Wrong message! Anyway wheres the kingdom of God on earth? If Christ returned it should have been here? Is there a mis-calculation somewhere? Also Baha'u'llah talks low of Christians and Jews in his scriptures, I even posted it in the erotica thread..... I was shocked he wrote that.

God bless you all.

[lunamoth]

As you have found Postmaster, Baha'i theology is not compatible with Christian theology. For a Christian to accept Baha'i theology one must either not be familiar with Christian theology or if familiar with it must reject it. For example, Baha'i theology rejects the physical resurrection of Christ, a pretty fundamental part of Christianity. One must also believe that we are again bound to the letter of the law, rather than to the spirit, and it is a new law given at that.

But, what I think about all this is that one must first accept the authority of a religion and after that the theology, and the prophecy, and the dogma and the ritual (and yes, there is some in the Baha'i Faith) pretty much follows that. In the case of the Baha'i Faith one must first accept that Baha'u'llah was indeed God's Manifestation on earth, and if you believe that then, in theory, you are going to obey whatever you believe God has told you to do.

The question is, well, how do you decide to accept that authority? First, I think, it is going to have to ring true already to a lot of what you already believe. You may also have a personal experience, such as a dream or vision. But, you might want to be careful of these because the mind, and if you believe in the enemy then he also, can play tricks and mislead. Third, unless you are able to meet the authority yourself and talk to him/her/them, you are probably going to base some of your conclusions on the people you meet who represent that faith. And you are probably going to want to also examine the practical application of the religion on your life and the life of others.

2 c,
lunamoth

[Mick]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I think that the Baha'i Faith has lots of social laws, and in fact as a religion that emphasizes good deeds and adherance to the law over everything else it is more an orthopraxy, like Islam or Judaism, than it is an orthodoxy like Christianity. And also more like Islam in that it is very low on ritual.

Orthopraxy: The treatment of deformities in the human body by mechanical appliances. I think you are referring to orthopraxis which is the "correct practice in religion." Regardless, what's with the word picking? Orthopraxy...orthodoxy....in the realm of God, honestly, who cares. I sometimes find this sort of discussion just boggles my brain. The Baha'i Faith is not like any other religion because of its unique Administrative Order and yet it is like everyother religion because it shares the same core belief of one God and that God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I would suggest that anyone interested in the Baha'i Faith read the Kitab-i-Aqdas, the Most Holy Book of Laws. As our Baha'i members have stated it is the most important book in the Baha'i Faith, although perhaps not the book that will convince one that the Baha'i Faith is divinely inspired. For that I would recommend the Kitab-i-Iqan. Both books are in English and quite easy to read in spite of their Arabic-sounding names. The Kitab-i-Iqan is kind of an apologetics aimed at Muslims and Christians explaining how the Revelation of Baha'u'llah fulfills the prophecies of these two religions, and how the Return of Christ anticipated by Muslims and Christians occurred "in clouds," but in a way very much like the first appearance of Christ.

Thank you for the suggestions, Luna Moth, but let me clarify something. Concerning the Administrative Order of the Baha'i Faith, the Kitab-I-Aqdas and the The Will and Testament of Baha'u'llah are foundation documents, but for the essence of Baha'u'llah's message, I would suggest, Gleanings From the Writings of Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-I-Iqan (also known as "The Book of Certitude) and The Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, plus many compilations of Baha'u'llah's writings that are available, and some very important works by 'Abdu'l-Baha as well as Shoghi Effendi, and some good "explanation" type books, such as The Baha'i Faith: An Emerging Global Religion and Baha'u'llah and the New Era. You may also want to go to

http://www.bahaibookstore.com/index.cfm

and choose from hundreds, if not thousands, of books.

So what I am suggesting is if you want to find out about the horse, then you go to the horse's mouth. I would not presume to tell you or Postmaster what one should read to understand your particular Christian theology, though I am kind of partial to the "Red Words" in the Bible or the Words of Christ, and then to the writings of Paul to try to understand church foundation. But since there are so many different "foundations" that profess righteousness, it starts to get confusing to me.

warmly,

Mick

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Mick

Orthopraxy: The treatment of deformities in the human body by mechanical appliances. I think you are referring to orthopraxis which is the "correct practice in religion." Regardless, what's with the word picking? Orthopraxy...orthodoxy....in the realm of God, honestly, who cares. I sometimes find this sort of discussion just boggles my brain. The Baha'i Faith is not like any other religion because of its unique Administrative Order and yet it is like everyother religion because it shares the same core belief of one God and that God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent.

It was just an observation.

Thank you for the suggestions, Luna Moth, but let me clarify something. Concerning the Administrative Order of the Baha'i Faith, the Kitab-I-Aqdas and the The Will and Testament of Baha'u'llah are foundation documents, but for the essence of Baha'u'llah's message, I would suggest, Gleanings From the Writings of Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-I-Iqan (also known as "The Book of Certitude) and The Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, plus many compilations of Baha'u'llah's writings that are available, and some very important works by 'Abdu'l-Baha as well as Shoghi Effendi, and some good "explanation" type books, such as The Baha'i Faith: An Emerging Global Religion and Baha'u'llah and the New Era.

Yes, I've read all of those too. An Emerging Global Religion is a great introduction to the Baha'i Faith. I would also recommend all of the writings of the Guardian Shoghi Effendi. And, if you really want to fall in love the Baha'i Faith I recommend The Seven Valleys, a beautiful mystical book that really leads one through to the transcendence of God.

So what I am suggesting is if you want to find out about the horse, then you go to the horse's mouth.

I totally agree that it is best to learn about a religion from those who practice it--makes sense. I just thought that on a comparative religion forum, in a subform titled "Comparative Studies," it might be OK to compare the two religions of Christianity and the Baha'i Faith. Looking for discussion, not debate.

I would not presume to tell you or Postmaster what one should read to understand your particular Christian theology,

thank you--that is appreciated. I made those suggestions from my perspective as a former Baha'i, and they are the exact same suggestions you and others have made! I am interested in what Baha'is view as the important teachings of their Faith--that's why I started a thread on it in the Baha'i forum here.

though I am kind of partial to the "Red Words" in the Bible or the Words of Christ, and then to the writings of Paul to try to understand church foundation.

Yes, the Baha'i Faith takes a very stringent sola scriptura approach to reading the Bible, one that rejects any Church doctrine or tradition. It also fails to acknowledge that the Bible was written, compiled and canonized by the very Church they claim is errant.

But since there are so many different "foundations" that profess righteousness, it starts to get confusing to me.

Me too sometimes! But, there do seem to be a few core doctrines that the vast majority of Christians adhere to.

peace,
lunamoth

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Mick

Orthopraxy: The treatment of deformities in the human body by mechanical appliances. I think you are referring to orthopraxis which is the "correct practice in religion." Regardless, what's with the word picking? Orthopraxy...orthodoxy....in the realm of God, honestly, who cares. I sometimes find this sort of discussion just boggles my brain. The Baha'i Faith is not like any other religion because of its unique Administrative Order and yet it is like everyother religion because it shares the same core belief of one God and that God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent.



Thank you for the suggestions, Luna Moth, but let me clarify something. Concerning the Administrative Order of the Baha'i Faith, the Kitab-I-Aqdas and the The Will and Testament of Baha'u'llah are foundation documents, but for the essence of Baha'u'llah's message, I would suggest, Gleanings From the Writings of Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-I-Iqan (also known as "The Book of Certitude) and The Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, plus many compilations of Baha'u'llah's writings that are available, and some very important works by 'Abdu'l-Baha as well as Shoghi Effendi, and some good "explanation" type books, such as The Baha'i Faith: An Emerging Global Religion and Baha'u'llah and the New Era. You may also want to go to

http://www.bahaibookstore.com/index.cfm

and choose from hundreds, if not thousands, of books.

So what I am suggesting is if you want to find out about the horse, then you go to the horse's mouth. I would not presume to tell you or Postmaster what one should read to understand your particular Christian theology, though I am kind of partial to the "Red Words" in the Bible or the Words of Christ, and then to the writings of Paul to try to understand church foundation. But since there are so many different "foundations" that profess righteousness, it starts to get confusing to me.

warmly,

Mick

Actually, if one wants to get it from the "horse's mouth", one must learn Greek and Hebrew, then read the original scriptures before translation. However, that would also mean one must learn about the cultures and people at the time the scriptures were written, just to understand where they were coming from. In other words, it would take a lot of time, before one could even sit down to read the Bible in it's original format. Like years or decades...and preconceptions would have to be thrown out the window (not an easy feat to unlearn what has been learned)...

my thoughts

v/r

Q

[Mick]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Actually, if one wants to get it from the "horse's mouth", one must learn Greek and Hebrew, then read the original scriptures before translation. However, that would also mean one must learn about the cultures and people at the time the scriptures were written, just to understand where they were coming from. In other words, it would take a lot of time, before one could even sit down to read the Bible in it's original format. Like years or decades...and preconceptions would have to be thrown out the window (not an easy feat to unlearn what has been learned)...

my thoughts

v/r

Q

Well, actually Baha'u'llah and The Bab wrote in Arabic and Farsi. No Greek or Hebrew here. I was making a reference to the Baha'i writings, not the Bible. Most of the writings that were translated to English were translated by Shoghi Effendi, The Guardian of the Faith and the Great Grandson of Baha'u'llah. There are Baha'i Apologetics that do look at the original Arabic and Farsi and so far nothing has changed in the meaning of the writings.

Baha'u'llah has told us that man cannot change the meaning of the word of God. This is why we sould search for the truth from as many sources as we can manage.

Concerning the Christian Bible, it has been translated enough times and analyzed enough times over the past 1700 years, that I can't imagine what could be gained by going to the original language it was written in. Maybe one could play with a word and chew on its meaning, but as Baha'u'llah told us, man cannot change the meaning (essence) of the Word of God. Oh, by the way, it seems I have read that the early books of the Old Testament, those purported to come from Moses, and also those that seem to come from oral tradition that was eventually written down, were originally written in Sanskrit. I don't know why I mention this, but the thought simply passed through my brain and I thought I would share it.

Mick

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Mick

Well, actually Baha'u'llah and The Bab wrote in Arabic and Farsi. No Greek or Hebrew here. I was making a reference to the Baha'i writings, not the Bible. Most of the writings that were translated to English were translated by Shoghi Effendi, The Guardian of the Faith and the Great Grandson of Baha'u'llah. There are Baha'i Apologetics that do look at the original Arabic and Farsi and so far nothing has changed in the meaning of the writings.

Baha'u'llah has told us that man cannot change the meaning of the word of God. This is why we sould search for the truth from as many sources as we can manage.

Concerning the Christian Bible, it has been translated enough times and analyzed enough times over the past 1700 years, that I can't imagine what could be gained by going to the original language it was written in. Maybe one could play with a word and chew on its meaning, but as Baha'u'llah told us, man cannot change the meaning (essence) of the Word of God. Oh, by the way, it seems I have read that the early books of the Old Testament, those purported to come from Moses, and also those that seem to come from oral tradition that was eventually written down, were originally written in Sanskrit. I don't know why I mention this, but the thought simply passed through my brain and I thought I would share it.

Mick

Then you just defeated the primary purpose of your original thought...You said "Get it from the horse's mouth", yet you negate where whom, how, where, and what comes from that "horse's mouth". You implied the Christian Bible (for example), now you discard it as inconsequential. That is hard to understand, unless that was your intent from the beginning. In short, Abrahamic beliefs do not appear to sit well with you, and this was a scape goat attempt to slam such, and raise your new faith up a notch or two (which is fine, and understandable).

Sorry to intrude, but I thought you were asking questions...

v/r

Q

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Postmaster Vs Baha'is once again. I'm going to stick with it this time.

I'm afraid not, Postmaster - do I really need to send you a PM about the Code of Conduct?