G-d - what is He?

[Azure24]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Well that's not my view!! Perfection? Who said perfection is the most important thing? All we all to be perfectionists?

Let me enlighten you, no not me... God!

God is PERFECT! And God wants His children to BE PERFECT! And believe it or not God WILL. . . MAKE ... US ... PERFECT!

"He [God] chooses us in Him [Christ] before the disruption [foundation] of the world, we to be HOLY and FLAWLESS [PERFECT] in His sight ..." (Eph. 1:4).

"You, then, shall be PERFECT as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Mat. 5:48).

"I in them, and Thou in Me, that they [that’s US] may be made PERFECT in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent me, and hast loved Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me" (John 17:23).

"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man PERFECT in Christ Jesus" (Col. 1:28).

People are quick to say, "Well, NOBODY is perfect." That’s not true:

"For it became HIM, for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in bringing many [that’s us and the rest of the world] sons unto glory, to make them the CAPTAIN of their salvation PERFECT [how?] Through SUFFERING" (Heb. 2:10).

Yes, maybe no one but Christ is perfect now, but it won’t always be that way. Paul knew that it was a process and that it would be ultimately God’s achievement:

"Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus" (Phil. 3:12).

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some pastors and teachers; For the PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS ..." (Eph. 4:11-12).

Say, did you notice that Christ was perfected through "SUFFERING?" Are we not to bear our own Cross? If they hated and persecuted Christ, will they not do likewise to us? Do we think the Scripture says in vain,

"Herein is our love made PERFECT, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He [Christ] IS, SO ARE WE in the world" (I Jn. 4:17).

Here it is. The word of God. There is no denying it... We WILL be perfected through suffering.

[Azure24]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

I believe we all belong in the Garden of Eden, but when Adam and Eve tasted the fruit, we were uprooted and thrown into another world. Now we want to, once again, be rooted back in Eden.

This, my friend is not true... Allow me to quote myself from another thread...

Originally Posted by Azure24

I heard a world-famous televangelist say in his sermon that it was never God’s intention that Adam and Eve disobied His command and sin by eating of the forbidden tree. Most Christians would agree. They think God did not want Adam to sin; and Adam did not need to sin. If Adam had not sinned, we would all be living in a giant Garden of Eden to this very day. We would be in perfect health, there would be no sorrow, we would have pleasure twenty-four hours a day, we would never die, we would be happy and God too would be happy.

If Adam had shown just a little restraint the world wouldn’t be in the giant mess it is in today. Oh really? Well, why then didn’t Adam exercise restraint. What went wrong? Did the first humans malfunction? Was there a flaw in their original design. God was the Designer; is God the blame? Not according to Christendom. Is He at least responsible? Not according to Christendom. But why not?

Now listen carefully. When a scientist creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is he responsible for the malfunction? Yes. Does he hold the experiment or machine responsible? No. Does he hold God responsible? No. Okay.

Now then, according to Christendom, when God creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is He responsible for the malfunction? No. Does He hold the experiment or machine responsible? Yes. Does He hold man responsible? Yes. See the wisdom?

I have just shown you one reason why God calls the WISDOM of this world, STUPIDITY!

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness [Greek: stupidity] with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness" (I Cor. 3:19).

First, do you assume that God’s creation of humans malfunctioned -- they did NOT!

Second, do you assume that God is not responsible and does not take responsibility -- He DOES!

Few indeed have ever stopped long enough to consider that just maybe God intended for the world to be in the hellish mess that we find it. Not for all eternity, but for the present, for a period of time, for a great purpose.

It just seems so wrong to that some would thing to believe that God would have purposed such an evil and unhappy world. But look at the alternative. Are we to believe that God tried (albeit unsuccessfully) to make a good creation, but was unaware of its potential to run amok? And ever since, God must therefore either lack the love for humanity to straighten it out, or He lacks the power and ability. But either way it disowns God’s sovereignty and presents us with a God Who either CANNOT or WILL NOT STOP THE INSANITY! They would have us believe that God’s solution to rid the world of sin and evil is to torture most of humanity in fire for all eternity.

The whole idea is blasphemous. If a carnal-minded human can take responsibility for an invention that malfunctions, I submit, that God is bigger and more responsible than puny man. Be it known to all that God takes full responsibility for His creation, and absolutely nothing in His creation is malfunctioning. Here’s the proof:

"For the creature [and/or creation itself] wasMADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that’s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAINuntil NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)

It was God HIMSELF Who subjected the whole creation to vanity, and He didn’t ask anyone’s permission before He did it. And it is only God Himself Who will deliver the whole creation from the bondage of corruption, pain, and suffering. Make no mistake about it: God is the Creator of evil, and He takes full responsibility for the deliverance from the consequences of all the evils that have caused the creation to "groan and travail in PAIN until NOW" as Paul describes. God takes responsibility for the temporary failures of creation so that He can take all the credit and glory for its successes.

It was not possible for Satan NOT TO SIN -- he was created for the express purpose of being God’s Adversary, and so, of course, he was a sinner "FROM THE BEGINNING"!

It was not possible for Adam and Eve NOT TO SIN -- they were created for the express purpose of being molded into the "image of God," and so of course, they had to eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil or they would have NEVER reached this first spiritual step in becoming LIKE GOD (in His IMAGE), a step of paramount DIVINE REQUISITE

"And the LORD God said, Behold [consider, to perceive, to know, to understand], the man is BECOME AS ONE OF US [Hebrew for ‘God’ is elohiym which is the plural of elowahh, hence ‘us’], TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL..." (Gen. 3:22).

Knowing "good and evil" is one of the most essential requisites in being formed in the image of God. To truly "know" both good and evil they HAD to partake of its source, which was the "TREE of the knowledge of good and evil," which then DEMANDED that they SIN in order to obtain this "knowledge." NO OTHER TREE IN THE GARDEN POSSESSED THIS NEEDED KNOWLEDGE!

And so it was GOD, and none other than GOD, Who intended from the beginning that Satan and man SIN! That does not make God a sinner, for a sin is a "mistake," a "missing of the mark," a "falling short of the glory of God," and God has NEVER MADE A MISTAKE OR FALLEN SHORT OF TOTAL PERFECTION! God knew what He was doing and how things would turn out BEFORE He created ANYTHING! "Declaring the end from the beginning..." (Isa. 46:10). Satan and man are "accountable" for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart, but God takes "responsibility" for their sins, and therefore had already provided them a Saviour BEFORE the foundation of the world.

God is not stupid...

[Dondi]

Azure,

I don't think you are going to get too many positive responses by quoting extensively in the New Testament here in the Judaism board, just letting you know. Nor, in fact, have you even quoted once from the Torah, which I think that if we are going to know who God is, from a Jewish perspective, that is the best place to start.

[Azure24]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Azure,
I don't think you are going to get too many positive responses by quoting extensively in the New Testament here in the Judaism board, just letting you know.

If i recieve negative responses, then so be it. Is this not a discussion board?

Correct me if I'm wrong but, does the title of this thread not read
"G-d - what is He?"?

It does not say "G-d - what is He? For The Jewish Only"

Originally Posted by Dondi

Nor, in fact, have you even quoted once from the Torah, which I think that if we are going to know who God is, from a Jewish perspective...

Like I said previously does it not say "G-d - What is He?"?

Or

"G-d - what is He? From a Jewish Perspective"?

Originally Posted by Dondi

...from a Jewish perspective, that is the best place to start.

But is it not a Muslim who started this thread?

I have not read the Torah so i cannot possibly quote it...

Ok, so that means that i am not welcome is that what you are saying?

(I understand this is a Jewish thread but the question is Universal).

[Dondi]

I'm not saying that you aren't welcome on this forum, nor is it Jewish only. All I said is that you will not receive positive responses from the Jewish perspective, assuming that you are on the Judaism board for such a response, when you load your response with New Testament quotes.

Furthermore, I am quite surprise that you've said that you never read the Torah. Perhaps you are simply ignorant of what the Torah is: the first five books of the Old Testament - Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. If you haven't read the Torah, then I would highly recommend it, for you won't have a correct understanding of God without knowing what these Hebrew scriptures say about Him.

[Azure24]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Perhaps you are simply ignorant of what the Torah is: the first five books of the Old Testament - Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

Yes i am ignorant of what is. I have not read the Torah (as in the the Old Testament by itself - It is called the Old Testament in the Bible as oppossed to the New Testament also in the Bible) but i HAVE read the Old Testament.

I hardly doubt Jewish people read the Torah in the Bible but rather in a separate book without the New Testament.

I hope that clears it up.

[Raksha]

It is called the Old Testament in the Bible as oppossed to the New Testament also in the Bible) but i HAVE read the Old Testament.

Jews no longer use the term "Old Testament" to refer to the Hebrew Bible. When speaking English they use the term I just did, i.e. the Hebrew Bible. The term "Old Testament" implies a "New Testament," and since the Jews have never accepted the Christian Bible (i.e. the Gospels and Epistles, etc.) as canonical, it's misleading to use that term.

I hardly doubt Jewish people read the Torah in the Bible but rather in a separate book without the New Testament.

That's correct--they read it without the New Testament (the Christian Bible), which isn't canonical for Jews.

--Linda

[Azure24]

Originally Posted by Raksha

Jews no longer use the term "Old Testament" to refer to the Hebrew Bible...The term "Old Testament" implies a "New Testament," and since the Jews have never accepted the Christian Bible (i.e. the Gospels and Epistles, etc.) as canonical, it's misleading to use that term.

Exactly! That was my point (you obviously seem to understand Raksha...But I was implying this to Dondi...)

Originally Posted by Azure24

It is called the Old Testament in the Bible as oppossed to the New Testament also in the Bible...

That is why I said...

Originally Posted by Azure24

...but i HAVE read the Old Testament.

As in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy but in the Bible (therefore Old Testament).

Originally Posted by Azure24

Yes i am ignorant...

...But then again...

Originally Posted by Dondi

All I said is that you will not receive positive responses from the Jewish perspective...

...Looking at the reponse that I have received from Raksha or as you put it 'the Jewish perspective', Dondi, perhaps you too are also ignorant as you seem to have underestimated the sensibility of the Jewish people of this board.

Originally Posted by Raksha

That's correct--they read it without the New Testament (the Christian Bible), which isn't canonical for Jews.

I repect your beliefs... If I have caused offense then I apologise (after all this is a Jewish Board). Perhaps I should leave...

[Raksha]

I repect your beliefs... If I have caused offense then I apologise (after all this is a Jewish Board). Perhaps I should leave...

Azure,

Fortunately, that isn't my judgment call since I'm not the moderator here. I'm also too much of a newbie to know what the policy is regarding New Testament material on the Judaism board. All I can tell you is that most of the Judaism forums I have frequented in the past have been VERY strict when it comes to Christian proselytizing. As soon as the moderator becomes aware it's happening, the offending post is deleted, and sometimes the poster is asked to leave the forum.

This hard-nosed policy is necessary because Jews have always been the prime targets for Christian proselytizing, which can be pretty sneaky and underhanded. Christians will come on the forum pretending to "ask a question" about Judaism. But then it turns out they are just looking for an opening, an excuse to tell all the Jews on that forum just how "wrong" they are regarding their interpretation of some prophecy, or the nature of the Messiah, or...whatever.

What it usually boils down to is rehashing some old debate that has already been rehashed and (from our side) refuted hundreds of times. This creates a hostile atmosphere on the forum and makes all other discussion impossible, so the moderators have to take a proactive stance when it comes to proselytizing.

I'm not saying you WERE proselytizing, but your extensive quoting from the NT made it look that way--not just to Dondi but to me too. Only you know your motives, but I definitely felt a sales pitch coming on.

I'm not so sure there's anything wrong with Jews saying New Testament, BTW. I just had another look at my source and I may have been wrong in my earlier post. But referring to the Hebrew Bible as "the Old Testament" implies that it's been superceded, which is something Christians believe but Jews don't. Since that has historically been a major sticking point between Judaism and Christianity, we don't refer to our Bible as the Old Testament.

Among themselves, Jews refer to the Bible as the TaNaKh, which is a Hebrew acronym--TNK. That stands for the Torah, the Prophets (Neviim) and the Writings (Ketubim). You'll see the word "Tanakh" often on this board. That doesn't mean the same thing as the Torah, which is the first five books only. Tanakh refers to what Christians call "the Old Testament" in its entirety.

It also refers to the Masoretic text ONLY. The Septuagint was translated into Greek for the use of the Greek-speaking Jewish community in Egypt. It isn't accepted as canonical for that reason among others. Which doesn't mean you shouldn't read it or study it, or that the Catholics are "wrong" for including the six disputed books in their version of the Bible. It's just that it isn't accepted as canonical by mainstream Judaism.

--Linda

[Azure24]

I see what you mean, but believe me though I was not proselytizing.

Originally Posted by Raksha

...Christians will come on the forum pretending to "ask a question" about Judaism...

On another note, I am not what you would consider a "Christian" though (even though I believe all things said in the Bible), as I, to a certain degree do not hold some of their beliefs also (but that in itself is another story).

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Azure24

...Looking at the reponse that I have received from Raksha or as you put it 'the Jewish perspective', Dondi, perhaps you too are also ignorant as you seem to have underestimated the sensibility of the Jewish people of this board.

Look, I'm not up to getting into a pissing match with you on this. This has nothing to do with the feelings of Raksha or any others on this board. It was more a comment on being aware of who you are addressing in a particular board. I do not speak for Raksha, BB, or dauer, but when the OP question states:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

"Anyway, this got me to wondering what Judaism says about G-d. Do people of the Jewish faith have a collective vision of G-d or heaven? Does the Torah give you any glimpse of G-d or 'what' He is?"

you kinda have to figure that Muslimwoman is not looking for a Christian answer, nor long blocks of posts carried over from a Christian thread as you have in post #32.

I don't think anyone here minds if you have a view from a Christian perspective, being in a comparative format and all, but it makes it all the more disrespectful with pretentious statements such as:

Originally Posted by Azure24

Let me enlighten you, no not me... God!

...followed by extensive quotes from the New Testament. That to me borders on promotion. I would suggest to review the Code of Conduct.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Azure24

Correct me if I'm wrong but, does the title of this thread not read

"G-d - what is He?"?

It does not say "G-d - what is He? For The Jewish Only"

as salaam aleykum

Yes I called the thread "G-d - what is He", which I posted on the Judaism board in order to ask for the Jewish understanding/view/ teaching about what G-d 'is'.

Had I posted anywhere other than the Judaism board but wanted a Jewish perspective I would have called it "G-d - what is He .... from the Jewish perspective".

Originally Posted by Azure24

Ok, so that means that i am not welcome is that what you are saying?

(I understand this is a Jewish thread but the question is Universal).

I have always found that everyone is welcome to contribute. The discussion I started is about how Jews perceive G-d and you are welcome to add any knowledge you have about how Jews percieive Him.

Forgive me but I come to the Judaism board to learn, with respect, not to preach or state my faiths beliefs.

Salaam

[bananabrain]

certainly long blocks of cut and paste are rarely welcome as is proselytising. i think raksha has put it rather well:

Originally Posted by Raksha

This hard-nosed policy is necessary because Jews have always been the prime targets for Christian proselytizing, which can be pretty sneaky and underhanded. Christians will come on the forum pretending to "ask a question" about Judaism. But then it turns out they are just looking for an opening, an excuse to tell all the Jews on that forum just how "wrong" they are regarding their interpretation of some prophecy, or the nature of the Messiah, or...whatever. What it usually boils down to is rehashing some old debate that has already been rehashed and (from our side) refuted hundreds of times. This creates a hostile atmosphere on the forum and makes all other discussion impossible, so the moderators have to take a proactive stance when it comes to proselytizing.

in short, "dialogue" is *not* the same as "sharing the 'good news'", or "saving souls", or "invitations to islam", or either dawah or evangelisation. none of these are welcome. dialogue is - and that is what this board is for, not for trying to convert people.

b'shalom

bananabrain