G-d - what is He?

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by dauer

Salt,

That was the point of the post I made that you just replied to. Maybe I was not clear, but we're pretty much in agreement. Perhaps the clearest statement I made was:

dauer

Oh ok I guess I missed that, sorry!!

I kind of picked up the words "non-dual way of thinking", "multiplicitous" and "gendered deities" . . . I noticed "anthropomorphic" and thought I was starting a new topic of discussion.

I think I know what you might mean now, when you said "multiplicitous" in the sense that you were changing the subject slightly, although I don't actually know what "multiplicitous" means. I can't think of any examples to make it self-explanatory to me. . . . and yes I was going to ask about that as well. Does it mean that life can be seem in many different ways? . . . and therefore God? I'm just guessing from the context of the quote.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Did it work?

I think so yes, that is why I felt the need to post about it. Usually I see the 'image' of G-d in my mind (as taught by books), whereas this time I went beyond that and stopped seeing such images. Instead I started 'feeling' G-d's power.

Originally Posted by dauer

G!d in Judaism is not male and I don't think G!d is male in Islam either.

Correct Dauer, the Arabic in the Quran refers to G-d with both male and female references. We do not see G-d as having any gender, 'He' is simpy G-d. (I think it sounds better than saying 'it' - our language is just too limited).

Although historically, prior to Islam, Allah was a male G-d and had three female gods as daughters. However, in a male dominated world one wouldn't expect anything else. Personally I think it is just the contraints of the human mind trying to understand something we are not capable of understanding.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Although historically, prior to Islam, Allah was a male G-d and had three female gods as daughters.

Namaste MW,

This is a notice from the reference police, please expound here or in another thread.

Prior to Isam Allah was...daughters?? Koranic?

And I thought I've been told Islam always was?

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Well that's not my view!! Perfection? Who said perfection is the most important thing? All we all to be perfectionists?

I tend to think of each of us as a plant that grows, develops and evolves, developing personality traits and virtues along the way. The idea is to get bigger, stronger and to eliminate the vices in our personalities. That is what I see as what it means to increase one's holiness -- it is to grow into holier and purer behaviours and attitudes.

Standard? I don't see my life as striving to reach or achieve a particular standard, but to realise my full potential, which is not a standard, but an idealistic dream of how things could be. My aim is to make that dream a reality. Dream, create, make believe, make real and realise.

Progressive? Yes indeed. We'll all plants that have potential, to grow into something beautiful.

We are spiritual plants. The plants of nature are physical plants. By this I mean that it is not our bodies, but our minds that are plants.

I believe we all belong in the Garden of Eden, but when Adam and Eve tasted the fruit, we were uprooted and thrown into another world. Now we want to, once again, be rooted back in Eden.

What tossed Adam and Eve out of the Garden in the first place was disobedience toward God. Just for eating a piece of fruit. How perfectionist can you get?

Yes, God wants us to reach our full potential. But He (She/It/?) sets the bar high so that we can strive for that potential. An Olympic gymnast's goal is to score a perfect 10. Rarely does he/she accomplish this, but it is something they shoot for through many, many hours of practice and concentration. That standard is there so that they can do the very best they can. Without a target, you are just hitting air.

You can call it full potential, and you have some idea of what that could be in your own estimation. But how do you know that you can't go higher? If God's ways are higher than your ways, doncha think His is a better target?

[wil]

Originally Posted by Dondi

What tossed Adam and Eve out of the Garden in the first place was disobedience toward God. Just for eating a piece of fruit. How perfectionist can you get?

Namaste Dondi,

That would be a literal viewpoint. Another viewpoint could be that folks 5,000 years ago were trying to get folks to do the right thing and created a story which to assist in this regard. Another viewpoint would be there was no adam, no eve, no garden, no apple and it is metaphor, allegory for an infinite number of different aspects and nuances in life.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste Dondi,

That would be a literal viewpoint. Another viewpoint could be that folks 5,000 years ago were trying to get folks to do the right thing and created a story which to assist in this regard. Another viewpoint would be there was no adam, no eve, no garden, no apple and it is metaphor, allegory for an infinite number of different aspects and nuances in life.

But what is the right thing?

[wil]

Originally Posted by Dondi

But what is the right thing?

Oh there are as many answers to that as there are religions in the world, self help books, or the number of people that have existed on earth times the number of years people have existed on earth. As many of us gain a new understanding of that each day.

But in this respect, it was to follow the wishes of the writers or story tellers.

[dauer]

Salt,

multiplicitous was my attempt to turn multiplicity into an adjective. I was just referring to the fact that usually we perceive many things, not One, and so understanding G!d purely at a non-dual level isn't really working with our most normative experiences. Better to mine our psyches and those of our ancestors via the texts they have left us for archetypal language with which to interface with the Divine imo.

[bob x]

Prior to Isam Allah was...daughters?? Koranic?

Prior to Islam, Allah "THE God" (as opposed to ilah "a god" used generically) was used by Arabic-speaking Jews, Christians, and related sects like the Subbaeans ("baptizers") to mean the God of Abraham, but was also used by some Arabs called hanifi (I think I have the word right), who were what anthropologists call henotheists as opposed to monotheists meaning that they believed that there was one Supreme God, above all the others (although the existence and legitimacy of the other gods was not denied), and these could believe that Allah had a wife, children, etc.
Muhammad, so the story goes, did once have a revelation that the three most popular goddesses in Mecca (roughly, the Moon, Venus, and Lady Luck) were daughters of Allah whose continued worship was acceptable in Islam; but then retracted those "Satanic verses" saying that the devil had gotten to him (in the Qur'an it reads, "there has never been a prophet speaking for God that the devil did not manage to throw in some words", a problematic verse to say the least). Salman Rushdie's title for his controversial book referred to this incident.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste MW,

This is a notice from the reference police, please expound here or in another thread.

Prior to Isam Allah was...daughters?? Koranic?

And I thought I've been told Islam always was?

Note to self - don't post when tired!!

Yes Islam always was, as it simply means submission to G-d. My reference to 'prior to Islam' is prior to the revelation of the Quran and the founding of what we call the Islamic faith.

I have to disagree with Bob that the moon god was called Allah and was the G-d of Abraham (pbuh). The Pagans of Arabia at the time worshipped al-ilah (al meaning the) who was the Moon god and the chief of the gods, this name may have been shortened to al-lah.

They believed in a group of gods, governed by al-ilah, with minor gods doing the grunt work (for want of a better phrase). So they also worshipped el-Lat (destiny), el-Uzza (Venus) and Manat (godess of vegetable life), who they believed were the daughters of al-ilah. Then each tribe had it's own small god that they worshipped in the hope of intercession with the higher gods.

This is an interesting topic because it was mentioned in Salman Rushdie's book the satanic verses and led to the fatwa calling for his death (please note the fatwa was not a sentence by an Islamic court and many scholars spoke out against it, although my view is it was a bloody stupid thing to call the book). A lot of Muslim outrage came from Arabic speaking Muslims because they did not understand it was a work of fiction and the translation used the word ayat (which is reserved for verses of the Quran not for verses of poetry etc) which further confused the issue.

The reference to these godesses is Surah an-najm (the star):

For truly did he see, of the Signs of his Lord, the Greatest! (53:18)

Have ye seen Lat. and 'Uzza, (53:19)

And another, the third (goddess), Manat? (53:20)

What! for you the male sex, and for Him, the female? (53:21)

Behold, such would be indeed a division most unfair! (53:22)

These are nothing but names which ye have devised,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah has sent down no authority (whatever). They follow nothing but conjecture and what their own souls desire!- Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord! (53:23)

These were among the earliest revelations.

The suggestion is that verse 53:19 originally included 53:20 and the following:

These are the exalted cranes (intermediaries) Whose intercession is to be hoped for.

This controvercy goes back to two early Arab historians (al-Waqidi, A.D. 747-823, and at-Tabari, A.D. c. 839-923), who recorded the story of the 'satanic verses', stating that Satan had made the Prophet utter this verse but Allah informed the Prophet this was the work of Satan and the Prophet withdrew the verse. Later Quranic historians have stated that this story cannot be traced beyond these two historians so has no basis.

There are various views on whether the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) commanded people to also worship al-ilah's daughters, then retracted that command and stated the devil put the words in his mouth. Views range from 'it never happened' to 'yes it did but this was the doing of Satan and Allah put it right'.

Was it just a shrewd diplomatic move to ensure the survival of the Muslims in Pagan Mecca? We will never know but the story states that for a period of time the Muslims and Pagans prayed together, because the Pagans believed the Prophet was honouring their gods.

[bob x]

What is your interpretation of 22:52, the verse about the devil getting his words in?

[Francis king]

"male and female, in his image, he created them"... genesis...

for me, this implies that God transcends gender, and if he transcends gender, then he also transcends a body, or a single form, and for me this suggests that God is multiplicitous, diverse, all encompassing...

for me, brought up as a catholic- we had a trinity... God the father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit... I could not find peace with my own father, and so God the father was not a concept I embraced... God the Son, I could not grasp, as I was too young to feel that love for God as, for instance, a mother or father would feel for their son, and so, God for me, was the Holy Spirit...

This spirit, so fragile yet so powerful, is, for me, God... This spirit brings the pentacostal fire to the disciples, brings the visions to the prophets, the breath of God which brings about the creation of the soul... yet we speak little of the spirit, and our religions become about Gods, with specific characteristics, determinable, quantifiable, knowable... God as spirit is like-
"the Lord of the Dance"- the spirit of joy, of passion, a maddening but captivating melody that upon hearing causes u to dance, or "the lord of the meeting rivers", a union of energy, creating waves, and spray...

God, for me, is like wind- seemingly instubstantial, yet with gale force capabilities, or like water- soothing, quenching my thirst, yet fierce, a tsunami of energy... God, for me, is lover, best friend, brother, son, and yes,
even father,

but as a lover... he is not like a bad lover, who cannot satisfy, he is not a selfish lover, who seeks pleasure soley for himself, he is not like a mean spirited lover, who wants to dominate and control- he is the perfect partner... brother, son, father, best friend, all rolled into one...

and how we dance...

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

What is your interpretation of 22:52, the verse about the devil getting his words in?

I don't think it needs interpretation, it is quite clear. All Prophets are men, all men are tempted by desire but Allah will annull anything a Prophet says which follows his own desires.

There are six main volumes of hadiths which scholars rely on. Tabari is noted for writing hadiths that do not show Islam in the best light. Tabari stated that he was not to blame, he was simply recording anything he was told. Yet even Tabari made no mention of the so called 'satanic verses'.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Dondi

What tossed Adam and Eve out of the Garden in the first place was disobedience toward God. Just for eating a piece of fruit. How perfectionist can you get?

Yes, God wants us to reach our full potential. But He (She/It/?) sets the bar high so that we can strive for that potential. An Olympic gymnast's goal is to score a perfect 10. Rarely does he/she accomplish this, but it is something they shoot for through many, many hours of practice and concentration. That standard is there so that they can do the very best they can. Without a target, you are just hitting air.

You can call it full potential, and you have some idea of what that could be in your own estimation. But how do you know that you can't go higher? If God's ways are higher than your ways, doncha think His is a better target?

Standards of perfection . . . notions of one's full potential, I suppose it's just a different flavour of the same thing. The trouble is, we don't know what God expects of us. We can only assume. His requirements, from our point of view, are a matter of perception.

I suppose setting standards may give us a mark to aim for, but knowing one's full potential could help us to be more realistic in what think we should or could achieve (ie. having aims and knowing our limits). You can't do better than your best.

I've heard the "God has standards" slogan being tossed around in some places, and it definitely seems like a culture is developing around it, to the effect that I feel that we need a counterculture to balance it out. Otherwise everyone is going to go around thinking, "God has standards." But the trouble is, we're all different. Each of us is unique. We can't all think the same thing. I'm not saying that "God has standards" is a negative thing, it's just that our religious communities need some diversity.

I'm a bit of a rebel. I don't like it when a culture develops around a slogan because it makes that community seem limited and narrow-minded in its world-view. I'd prefer to stir things up a little, possibly develop a counter-culture to popular fads and slogans. I like balance and diversity.

Outsiders to a faith or community judge that community or faith by the ideas that dominate that group. If we go around with "God has standards" people are going to think that we're a bunch of people that adhere to standards and they're going to have some pretty high standards for us too. We'd be bringing judgment on ourselves.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea. It just seems to be a very common idea. I go to religious book stores and to the Internet, and . . . there it is . . . saying, "God has high standards, He can't be around sin." We all have to choose our banners, slogans and bumper stickers. It's just that not everyone has to carry the same thing around. But again, it's not to say that's what you think . . . I was just making an observation and pointing out what I had seen and stating my opinion.

It just shows how limited our world view(s) can be.

[Azure24]

What is God? The Bible does identify God sometimes as the 'Father' but this is not literall...

"For OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE." (Heb. 12:29)

"GOD IS SPIRIT" Jn. 4:24

"Now if any man build upon this [spiritual] foundation [Christ] gold, silver, precious stones [godly character traits], wood, hay, stubble [carnal character traits]; Every man’s work [thoughts, words, and deeds] shall be made manifest [become known, come to light]: for the day shall declare it [make it evident], because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3:12-13).

This of course is not a literal fire. God is SPIRITUAL FIRE!

God and Jesus are likened to fire many many times, i can list so many...I fact i will:

"His head and His hairs were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were as a flame of FIRE" (Rev. 1:14).

"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes though it be tarried with FIRE, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:7).

"And the tongue is a FIRE…" (James 3:6).

"And of the angels He says, Who makes His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of FIRE" (Heb. 1:7).

"Every man’s work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by FIRE; and the FIRE shall try every man’s work of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3:13).

"Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing you shall heap coals of FIRE on his head" (Rom. 12:20).

"John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I comes, the latchet of Whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with FIRE" (Luke 3:16).

"For EVERY ONE shall be salted with FIRE, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt" (Mark 9:49).

"But who may abide the day of His coming? And who shall stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s FIRE, and like fullers’ soap" (Malachi 3:2).

"…for all the earth shall be devoured with the FIRE of my jealousy" (Zeph. 3:8).

"For in My jealousy and in the FIRE of My wrath have I spoken" (Ezek. 38;19).

"From above has He sent FIRE into my bones…" (Lamentations 1:13).

"Is not My word like as a FIRE? saith the Lord" (Jer. 23:29).

"Who makes His angels spirits; His ministers a flaming FIRE" (Psalm 104:4).

Shall i say anymore? Our God is a consuming fire!

But of course they don't teach you this at church do they.