g?d evolves!

[_Z_]

g?d evolves!

does god evolve? where everything in the universe and the universe itself changes, why wouldn’t its intelligence and being? in theory if there is a ‘god’ then it is the intelligence of the universe, perhaps the entire set of communications [between events, potentiality and other mechanisms of existence e.g. laws, dimensions, time etc] adds up to some kind of intelligence.

i don’t know if it is like the brain or anything we would normally call intelligence [yet the brain is form by 'it'], yet what it is by any name or description something that is directly relative to physical existence as we would normally see it ~ hence what we have is something that must mutate according to changes that occur in existence. as the universe evolves so must its ‘intelligence’ as it is directly relevant and indeed inherent within it.

so does g?d change as existence changes and hence evolves just like anything else?

no matter how wise or intelligent g?d is always learning, there never comes a point where omniscience is reached because all the ingredients of that are never arrived at. that is to say; you can only have knowledge of something once it has occurred yet the point where all things have occurred never arrives, hence all knowledge is never arrived at.

the hands that mould the clay

to visualise evolution in an engineered and perhaps intelligent universe, we may see evolution from a duel perspective; we have a ball of clay, it may be shaped in any way, either from the outside [the hands that mould it] or internally as with our present understanding of evolution. i think it works mainly from the inside as the ball of clay is alive/self animating. in either case it can only be shaped relative to its environment and in steps, you can’t jump to humans form nothing as you have to build what that form is made from with the materials available at the time.

to this we may perhaps add the idea that, even when we have an immensely intelligent universe it can only act as a guiding presence and lawmaker at most. creatures react to nature as an entity as well as to individual aspects of it i.e. the immediate environment. the very presence of intelligence is that which drives and builds the tree of evolution. we may go on to say that even law and pattern/math are constructs of both intelligent operation and self creation, a law is made between the interaction of given forms, from energy and dimension to the more macroscopic shapes of existence.

in all cases and from all perspectives, nature finds shape. intelligence, mindfulness and form are results of that, not makers of it. this may seam contradicting as we may say that neither come first nature nor intelligence, both are present throughout. so what is to say one take precedence over the other, well my point is that they don’t and that is exactly why neither dictate to one another! so g?d just lets things occur naturally knowing that things take shape by intelligent mannerisms as described in science and philosophy, that there is an inherent design to how things can only take shape, things are as they are because that is the way nature grows.

let it be
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exploration...

an interesting question for me is that there are two fundamental philosophical properties of existence, which are very relevant to the intelligent universe as seen on a grander scale; a) there is no beginning, and b) infinite potentiality. if existence is eternal [which it must be] then it goes beyond the life cycle of our universe and into the previous and next universes. at some point there would be no events or a skeleton of minimal universal events e.g. the dimensions that transcend one universe and go into the next. so in the the greater cycle intelligence is minimal at this time perhaps even non existent.

at that time the entity of truth to which that intelligence belongs would be in a kind of deep sleep, yet it is dreaming ~ the soup of infinite potentiality is stirring up blending with what has gone before, the result of that cycle of the universe. the next universe just like any life cycle is the result of the previous. so g?d would change dramatically and evolve which each entire universe cycle and the cycles therein!

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more exploration...


do all incarnations follow the same rules, is one incarnation the same in essence as a given other? in other words if nature transcends its life cycles on a universal scale then do we also reincarnate by the same universal properties. do we and everything else sleep, dream then become re-manifest in form? there would thence be an ‘it’ that is carried over, the ‘you’ and its essence like a living mass of the results of events, remains and continues.

[Alex P]

In mans mind, it seems god evolves...

[Tao_Equus]

You are right Alex, after all 'evolve' does not actually infer progress, only change.

[_Z_]

In mans mind, it seems god evolves...

well as tao says, evolve only means change he could remain incredible wise and intelligent throughout.
if he is involved in the process of existence then he changes, yet here we are talking as if god is extraneous to existence, whereas i am saying there is nothing outside of existence and that g?d is an internal intellect within existence, a truly living god.

if we say god is outside then he has no effect nor interaction whatsoever. then we would have to define a duel existence in some way, when we already have a reality that includes infinity and is eternal.

so what would an external god be; more that infinite and eternal? that would be literally impossible.

whats wrong with a natural god?

[Alex P]

I guess physical change? It changes to be what it needs to be, perhaps... No idea, I've never met it..... But looking at the Creator from world religions, god evolves in mans mind, to more change, his rules, his laws, his will, his meaning. Even in the same groups of religion (Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, so ooooon.) This had to all come from one source? surley.... Maybe there is some truth in these religions accounts of who/what/why about their god(s)?

[_Z_]

This had to all come from one source? surley.... Maybe there is some truth in these religions accounts of who/what/why about their god(s)?

indeed god has changed in religion too, perhaps man sees part of it then another part some of which contradicts the former. i think we need to try to look beyond our perceptions of it and to forulate ideas about what the whole god would be like ~ if we can call it a god at all. i prefer to call it intelligent nature as this makes it more present and evident.

[Alex P]

Originally Posted by _Z_

. i prefer to call it intelligent nature as this makes it more present and evident.

lol Don't say that while Tao is around! Will upset him!

I don't call it a he either, I call it an it lol... So I guess yeah the Creator could evolve to be what it needs to be as previously mentioned, but my humble mind couldn't begin to give examples of how it changes...

But, by being intelligent nature.... For example. *looks out his window* I see trees, many trees... Are they god evolving?

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by _Z_

well as tao says, evolve only means change he could remain incredible wise and intelligent throughout.
if he is involved in the process of existence then he changes, yet here we are talking as if god is extraneous to existence, whereas i am saying there is nothing outside of existence and that g?d is an internal intellect within existence, a truly living god.

if we say god is outside then he has no effect nor interaction whatsoever. then we would have to define a duel existence in some way, when we already have a reality that includes infinity and is eternal.

so what would an external god be; more that infinite and eternal? that would be literally impossible.

whats wrong with a natural god?

Sorry but without invoking supernatural causation, for which there is zero evidence, an internal manifestation of God would be visible for all to see. Every purported expression of God on someone's life I have ever heard or read about is about as likely to float in the face of scrutiny as a lead balloon is like to reach the stratosphere. The more time goes by here at CR, the more I listen to the crass arguments, the shirking of answering any real questions and the more I relate that all to my life experience the more alienated I find myself here. It is all fiddling while Rome burns. It is the moral equivalent of Marie Antoinette asking why don't the peasants eat cake if there is no bread. It is pseudo-intellectual masturbation. And its high time I bowed out.

tao

[Alex P]

Tao, the only thing I would say is, this is an interfaith forum... So there are going to be many varying views on basically every subject under the sun. So no you're not alienated... You know... In the dictionary lol... Alienated... one of the two meanings... "caused to be unloved." I love ya The second meaning? Socially disorientated... That is gonna happen bro, this is interfaith I find many people here mind blowing... Some insane others baffling.... But it is a place to share opinions not a place that aims to make everyone hold the same opinion.... Just wanted to say that ;\

[dauer]

Depending on one's definition of G!d, G!d does or does not change. Unless there is an agreed upon definition of G!d being used as the basis for the discussion it's hard to discuss except for each individual to say, "For me..." It doesn't leave a lot of room for direct conversation.

What definition of G!d are you asserting for this discussion? Please be as clear as possible. Please be mindful of words that add ambiguity.

[_Z_]

But, by being intelligent nature.... For example. *looks out his window* I see trees, many trees... Are they god evolving?

i would say so yes, and look further and encompass the singularity/universe.

I call it an it lol... So I guess yeah the Creator could evolve to be what it needs to be as previously mentioned, but my humble mind couldn’t begin to give examples of how it changes...

i call it officially an ‘it’ too lols. ‘it’ for me is the universal integer of philosophy. i would see an eternal sameness and an externalised evolution, ‘it’ changes into whatever occurs. let us not forget ‘ti’ ti is the opposite of it ~ its nemesis or its lover, wherever there is an it there is a ti lols.
tao

Sorry but without invoking supernatural causation, for which there is zero evidence, an internal manifestation of God would be visible for all to see.

it is! from inside your innermost self to the world around you! nature is its body ~ as i see it. causation is a part of its workings, it is along with potentiality the connections between events, and hence part of the intelligent framework. we can see things as physics or we can see things as communications between things.

The more time goes by here at CR, the more I listen to the crass arguments, the shirking of answering any real questions and the more I relate that all to my life experience the more alienated I find myself here.
hmm true religion does make one feel like your banging one head against the wall, like nothing is ever answered.

perhaps try here for a change of scene... there are some there on your level i think.

ILovePhilosophy.com • Index page

It is all fiddling while Rome burns.

i wonder the same mate, like we could find all the answers while the world is ending and hence they make no difference. or did you mean something else?
hmm there are very few people who will go with you to find answers! we must all remember that we may not be entirely correct, yet i understand what you are saying about people not being willing to recognise truth when it is put in front of the. i hope i have not appeared so as i do listen and have learned much from what you say.

perhaps many others do too! what we see are replies trying to uphold a worldveiw or an idea, but that doesn’t mean people are not listening or taking in what is being said. although 85% of the time it does lols.

[_Z_]

dauer

it doesn’t depend on our definitions at all, there are only two options; god = nature, the universe reality, or god is extraneous to that.

so here i am saying g?d is literally the intelligent universe, and that this intelligence is fundamentally a part of physical existence [and eternity]. where physics and metaphysics are turned on their heads and we say that physical things are themselves metaphoric to a truth that is naked and not in a metaphor.

perhaps it is better not to use the term god at all, what i mean is intelligent nature on a omniversal scale.
i cannot imagine where that would leave any given thing extraneous to that?

[Alex P]

I would say by your definition then yes it evolves constantly... It is our DNA it is the chlorophyll that runs through these trees, it is the life source, and it can devlop and mutate and change to be what it needs to be....

It is.....

[_Z_]

alex p

indeed. perhaps it has seen and heard it all before, perhaps on a given planet somewhere out there [or in a previous universe or a billion universes ago] these discussion happened a million years ago and hence in the greater scheme of things are irrelevant.

yet in this part of it it is still all very relevant. i do often see time as like a wave in a greater ocean, so perhaps in contrary to what i just said, we are continually on the current apex of relative thought and change in the universal consciousness. that would though mean that all planets everywhere are at the same level and all previouse thought belongs to a previous era or evolution of existence.

would explain why aliens havent come here yet lols.

[dauer]

Z,

You said it doesn't depend on our definitions and then gave two possible definitions. You just refuted yourself. Additionally, I think there are more possibilities than two which could have an effect on whether or not G!d changes. However, if your premise is that G!d is identical with the world and the world itself changes then you've already answered your question.

Please clarify though: do you mean that a universal intelligence is G!d or that an intelligent universe is G!d? If an intelligent universe is G!d then there's no distinction between G!d and the universe. They are the same entity. If G!d is only a universal intelligence then there is room for that intelligence to be transcendent.

-- Dauer