Funny isn't it? Does anyone agree with me?

[aladdin]

I believe Faith and Divinity are intrinsicly meaningful concepts that transcend our "regular" preconceived knowledge of things such as the universe.

eternity exists Outside of time....its a state that does not exist within our preconceived concepts of the structure of time.

Faith is of a different mindset than scientific things and in fact, the famous physicist Niels Bohr has said "The map is not the territory" which many people interested in supernatural things use this quote....The map will NEVER be the territory, never..... but possibly religion and faith are the closest tools we have to grasping this territory.....so i disagree with referring to science as something objectively meaningful just because it happens to be a paradigm that is accepted and used by people in a consistent manner...what if we changed the number 2,,to the number 5, but kept the value the same? Would it mess everything up or just be a different way of looking at the world? Or romeo says "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" when pining over the fact that juliet isnt someone he can be with because of her last name. do u c the point i am making?

SCIENCE is and will always be a map Everchanging...science is something that has to fit our constructs of the world so it is useful for some purpose...science is not intrinsic but it is a method to achieve a goal, it is made Within our constructs of reality to be effective in changing measuring our physical nad other environment, it is useful for This world....religion and spirituality is useful for other worlds.

Anyhow, you could also argue we are in a holodeck or everything that we perceive science etc has no Intrinsic validity this is far easier imo to believe in than science is objectively valid and religious faith etc is instrinsically shaky

There are so many things, little things big things we do not see but that are still there.....


I see the argument is between those who disapprove of the terms of divine things as being universal because everyone has different interpretaions of what is divine? Well, like an english essay, wouldnt you automatically assume that the person is writing about the novel from their perspective? I don't understand why it is upsetting to people really, I love it when people assert their faith is the one true faith it is beautiful, inspiring!

[Sacredstar]

Dear Blue

Well Buddha is one of my other teachers and yes I think that all the great spiritual teachers and avatars are simply divine, so are you and I.

Love beyond measure


Sacredstar

[Blue]

Sacredstar,
You may well expect me to reply in the only way I can.

Poetically, I may be as divine as you perhaps.

Having said that, I hardly think I am anything other than an individual human being with a self-regarding faculty.

That is my 'divinity'... an individual and unique human being, as you are, though it is not a word I would really desire to use.

We humans are so proud and vain though, especially collectively. We lack true humility.

The facts seem to say to me that we have an extreme need for humility... we are greedy and grasping, as human beings, an individuated specie... we think we are some kind of peak of evolution, when we may very well be a 'backwater'.
The fact is we have distinctively existed for such a short period of geological time compared with the age of fishes, the age of the reptiles, and even the age of the mammals, that if we were to all disappear, die out tomorrow, we would scarcely leave a note in geological and astronomical time frames. We exist on a third rate (astronomically) speck of dust in an of-shoot of a minor galaxy, and then think we are actually something rather special in the scheme of things.

When we have the audacity to speak of 'God' or 'Gods' we actually (demonstrably) many of us dare to often utter that we KNOW what a God's plan is and what he or she or it says! That applies - in fact - to most organised monotheistic religions as well as individually validated personal conceptions of a deity.

As you see, to me such views are laughable, overly proud and presumptious, but that does not stop me respecting individual conceptions of the spiritual, the many 'Gods', be they Islamic, Hindu, or Pagan, etc.

If there is a God, I would guess the entity is laughing, because that is the saving grace of all humanity, but then - that is only a jocular guess! If not laughing... it probably doesn't actually care at all for us as an individuated specie.

So, far from being 'divine', I think I am rather inconsequential in the scheme of things, to say the least, especially as by now I have passed on my genetic nature to seven grandchildren and fulfilled my prime function biologically.

I would guess the entity, if it exists, quite enjoys the constant pull between balance and chaos... what other higher cause for its own existence could there be?

[Virtual_Cliff]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

since we all have some of God inside of us, I and maybe other people should stop wasting time trying to figure out wisdom and researching religion when we should be activists in helping the suffering people of this world. Now that’s what religion is all about!

I'm with you Postmaster. But I think that if the great wrongs of the world could be fixed by a single person it would have been done many times over. We can each do a small part, working (in Christian terms) as the body of Christ, or if you like as a part of the great movement that we call God. If we try too hard the work becomes ours not God's and fails ignominiously. If we don't try hard enough we betray what we most believe in. We should be realistic about what we can do - it is often a lot more than we at first think.

[wil]

I agree. Me too...

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

people are starving, suffering, lonely, cold, ill and at war.

Not one bit funny.. But yes, actions are worth more than words... You can all go to your church and bless the meek bless the next door neighbour for not believing and bless this and that... It ain't gonna do squat... Only action works. A moto I live by, but not for religion and such... I give action not words... For other circumstances

If your role model can fix this... What's he waiting for? Acceptance? bs. If I see a child hit by a car or an animal in need of food... Because of caring and such I would help that being without it even having to thank me or do anything for me, except live it's life... If your role model just swarms in love... He should be doing something... Then again, there is the possiblity there isn't such a saviour.. Which would explain why he does jack.

[Francis king]

yes, postmaster, while we post here ppl are "starving, suffering, lonely, cold, ill and at war",

and yes, it would be lovely if we all "give up our time, ours minds, our wisdom, our bodies and our money to help others!"

but personally... I currently have three pounds in my pocket... no money in the bank, no job, and no sign of one... I haven''t signed up for welfare, and won't, so.. what can I give?

yes, I could give time, but I currently need it for myself- I've volunteered every year for the past ten years, so think I deserve a break on that score...

so, all I can do at present is pass my old clothes into charity shops... beyond that...

my mind- nobody wants, nor my wisdom, and beyond time and money, neither of which I have, there is nothing to give, is there?

oh ho, but there is...

u see, its not all about flashy shows and grandiose gestures... it can be about the small things, too- kind words, good advice, decency, consistency, not speaking ill of others or telling lies, or allowing petty disputes to get out of hand, making ppl feel better about themselves instead of putting them down, holding open doors, giving ur seat on the bus up to old dears, helping the girl get her pram and baby down a flight of stairs, looking out for each other- all things we can all do, no matter how poor or how busy...

if we ourselves are not in the kind of place were we can do these things, then it is not us who should be helping, but us who needs the help...

[Muslimwoman]

Hi Postmaster

I agree, something we should all get off our bottoms and do something about. Not huge, grand gestures but if each person did something nice for one other, the world would be a better place. I am always reminded, during such discussions, of the film Pay it Forward.

However, I also think there is a time and place for posting on forums. If we can strengthen our faith, thereby feeling more inclined to do good works, then something good has come of our time here. If we can dispel one persons misconception or bring one heart back to faith that is struggling to remain on the path. These are all things we can do here, even if we only have £3 in our pocket or feel our strength for such things is gone.

To be honest I do not have time for good works or can spare money for charities these days, I married into an unbelievably poor family and must work to improve their lot in life for now. However my time in this forum strengthens my resolve to improve their lives. Some days I could and do just cry with the frustration and responsibility of it all and CR pulls me back to what is important in my life. My submission to G-d and why He brought me to that family.

Salaam
MW

[wil]

MW please correct me if I falter...

This could be my fairy tale...I have no clue how right I have this.

I am enamored with what I understand is the Islamic tenant on charity...one of the pillars I believe. One is to give 2% of their monetary holdings to charity. ie once a year you look at the bank account and give 2% to charity.

Now what is charity?? Charity starts at home, ie take care of your brother and sister... the thought being if you can assist them in getting an education or starting a business, they in turn will have increased their worth and be able to give and do more.

Then take care of cousins and uncles etc....the thought being if you can assist them in getting an education or starting a business, they in turn will have increased their worth and be able to give and do more.

Then take care of your neighbors and close sommunity...the thought being if you can assist them in getting an education or starting a business, they in turn will have increased their worth and be able to give and do more.

Then take care of your friends, country, fellow man...the thought being if you can assist them in getting an education or starting a business, they in turn will have increased their worth and be able to give and do more.

Then look to those in the world in need...the thought being if you can assist them in getting an education or starting a business, they in turn will have increased their worth and be able to give and do more.

When this was explained to me by a visiting Imam it made perfect sense....and like I said, I may have it completely wrong, I may have co-opted the thought to my own...as I have a tendency to do...

But the old/new pay it forward, do a good turn daily, be a good samaritan, lend a helping hand...these are acts of charity that cause others to do more for their fellow man...

A challenge...today...don't do an "I should've" step out of the box and help someone...provide the dollar...pull over at the lemonade stand and encourage that young entrepreneur...truth is.. we all have the time...even the least of us.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by wil

This could be my fairy tale...I have no clue how right I have this.

Nope, not a fairy tale although debatable how many people actually do this these days.

Originally Posted by wil

one of the pillars I believe. One is to give 2% of their monetary holdings to charity. ie once a year you look at the bank account and give 2% to charity.

Correct it is called zakat. It does not have to be money, you just give a portion of what you have to someone less fortunate than yourself. So a farmer may give an animal to relatives.

Originally Posted by wil

When this was explained to me by a visiting Imam it made perfect sense....and like I said, I may have it completely wrong, I may have co-opted the thought to my own...as I have a tendency to do...

You have it absolutely correct. Charity begins at home and spreads outward. My husband has had his business for 2 years now and is now able to care for his parents financially. However, the two men he employs are from poor families in his home area, as he has no family that can work for him but he would choose poor men from his area above young men from a wealthier family. Hubby though is concerned about providing for his younger brother, so is planning to work abroad for a couple of years () in order to pay for his young brother to get on in life. The idea being if his brother can get a better job, he can then provide for his own children and of course help to care for their parents.

However, his parents do so many charitable acts for us. They cannot afford financial acts, so they care for us in different ways. His mother worries about my fair skin (I get sick in the heat) so every few days she walks to the market to bring my shopping for me. His father will come out at 3am to fix my fuses, rather than wait until the morning or if hubby is away and I 'hear noises'. So the whole family is dragged out of bed and come for a check of me and a cuppa. Okay so you may see this as normal family behaviour but it goes beyond that. It is about caring for those around you, putting yourself out for them. Basically they accept that what goes around, comes around. There is no social security or pension schemes for them, so they know in later years they will rely 100% on their sons financially. It keeps families close.

This is just family. I also walk in the street with my mother in law, the poorest person I have met in my life and she will give money (usually a quarter of whatever she has) to someone begging in the street. As we walk away she always says alhamdolillah (thanks to G-d) because she knows that could easily have been her.

Originally Posted by wil

A challenge...today...don't do an "I should've" step out of the box and help someone...provide the dollar...pull over at the lemonade stand and encourage that young entrepreneur...truth is.. we all have the time...even the least of us.

You are absolutely right Wil, we can all do something but choose to live in our safe little blindfolded bubble. I have a dream (not very original I know) but of creating a co-operative in our town. To start poor people working (eg buy 4 taxi's), then as they begin to stand on their own feet, they have to pass that 'start' onto someone else (by buying their own taxi and giving the older one to a poor man). Also to provide a free school for the poor kids but of course if they don't work the parents often don't eat, so need to create work for the parents. Now all I have to do is win the lottery or learn how to create a charity and bring money in for this scheme. Wish I had more brains.